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☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy DOC Thread - Third opinion

If your plan is to IV anything that 99% of people would not, then you need to message the user "cr00k"
OMG LOL, I was just gonna reply to him before I read your comment. :D

Despite having had DOC in my possession at all times during the past 12 years, I have - lo and behold - actually never IV'ed it. However I have found my sweet spot for most psychedelic phenylethylamines I have injected at around 10-20% of my oral dose.

Since DOC has quite the steep dose-response curve, I would suggest not going over 100ug for your first shot. I personally prefer a dose of 6mg orally, but most people enjoy as little as 1.5mg in my experience. I've had what I would consider an accidental overdose on it and woke up in my own vomit the next day. Make sure this does not happen to you and keep in mind that there have been reports of fatalities due to individuals combining DOC with other drugs. Caution is in order.

I have actually been contemplating to use it again after not having had the pleasure for a few years. Just gonna have to find a weekend where both my wife and me feel up to it and - more importantly - can find the time. Still one of my favorite psychedelic PEAs.

A sidenote: If anyone ever plans to combine DOC with ketamine or other dissociatives, dose much lower. Much much lower.
 
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DOx + disso are awesome experiences, MXE or ketamine made the experience more potent and smoothed the bodyload. Recently I tried 5mg DOM + 10mg 3-meo-pcp and it was the more manic and euphoric experience of my life, couldn't stop laughing and acting like a maniac for hours.
 
So, it's been about long enough that I'm starting to get the craving to take DOC again.... I generally prefer indoles and the body load I got on my first experience with this one especially made me a little bit hesitant to jump right back in, but the psychedelic effects were still interesting that I can't help but return eventually. But, I do have a hopefully simple question for all you folks here with experience....

Basically, I'm wondering, is DOC one of the kinds of drugs where, within reason, increasing to a "full" dose can actually remove the body load of lower doses? Or at least, push it into the background behind the strength of the trip?

I've been wondering this since my first DOC experience, but haven't really gotten a straight answer yet. I'm mainly curious because my dose that time was 2.5 mg, and it made my body feel like crap, but the trip was promising. But, more promising than satisfying... to the point that I fear that dosing lower to avoid the body effects would just make it not even really worth it for me to begin with. Not to say that I couldn't see the value in putting up with that anyway so that I can accommodate myself to the bodily effects and slowly work my way back up, but I just figured I'd ask around about any potential shortcuts first, as it would obviously be simpler and more sparing on my supply to be able to just push up to a dose that'll really do it for me.

So, does anyone have anything to say about this, or possibly any alternative advice? All help would be much appreciated!
 
For me, 2.5mg is a pretty strong dose. Actually I usually take 2mg, but on the other hand I'm usually hiking or doing other active things, not trying to go within and look at CEVs and such (I've only really tried using DOC for this a couple of times and IMO it's not what it's best suited for), and specifically trying to remain functional. Did you feel only partway in at 2.5mg? It's possible you're insensitive and you had less than a full dose, or it's possible you had a full dose. it will certainly get stronger by increasing the dosage, but not sure whether the bodyload will decrease or not. I doubt it will increase. I've said it before but I'll say it again, if you've got something active you can do, during the first few hours at least, I strongly recommend that. Every time I take DOC and don't occupy myself physically, or stay inside, I feel uncomfortable. But when I take it and go on a hike or do pretty much anything where I'm outside and moving around, it's very comfortable. Very present in the body still, but as a warm glowing pleasurable energy rather than physical nastiness.
 
Are you asking what DOC is? It's a psychedelic amphetamine, 2,5-dimethoxy-4-chloroamphetamine, it's the amphetamine homologue of 2C-C. It's kinda LSD-like, often described as such anyway, but quite unique. It also lasts 16-20 hours. Also very potent, it's active at .25 to .5mg, with a full dose beginning around 2mg for most people. Quite a powerful and nice psychedelic, one of my favorites.
 
For me, 2.5mg is a pretty strong dose. Actually I usually take 2mg, but on the other hand I'm usually hiking or doing other active things, not trying to go within and look at CEVs and such (I've only really tried using DOC for this a couple of times and IMO it's not what it's best suited for), and specifically trying to remain functional. Did you feel only partway in at 2.5mg? It's possible you're insensitive and you had less than a full dose, or it's possible you had a full dose. it will certainly get stronger by increasing the dosage, but not sure whether the bodyload will decrease or not. I doubt it will increase. I've said it before but I'll say it again, if you've got something active you can do, during the first few hours at least, I strongly recommend that. Every time I take DOC and don't occupy myself physically, or stay inside, I feel uncomfortable. But when I take it and go on a hike or do pretty much anything where I'm outside and moving around, it's very comfortable. Very present in the body still, but as a warm glowing pleasurable energy rather than physical nastiness.

Hehe, I haven't forgotten your recommendation for physical activity, I'm just stubborn about it. :p I don't doubt that it helps a lot, and I'll certainly make use of it sometimes, especially whenever the time comes that I actually do have something like a good hiking opportunity. At the moment though, I suppose you could just say that I have a curiosity that needs to be satisfied....

It's certainly possible that I'm insensitive to some of the effects, but it was still pretty active at that dose. I guess it depends on where you draw the line.... It's also possible that I'm simply biased by the fact that the vast majority of my psychedelic experiences are on indoles and therefore most of my expectations for things are in line with them. But, nonetheless, I would say that I mostly felt like that 2.5 mg wasn't a full dose not necessarily because it wasn't what I would call a full trip in general, as there was a little bit of a headspace and decently strong geometric visuals particularly with closed eyes, but because I felt as though it went deeper than that, and thus should be held to a higher standard, and in that way it didn't feel fully developed to me. For example, during the first few hours in particular I was getting full-blown hallucinations, like people and places and animals, but every single one of these was fleeting or transparent, only present in my peripheral vision or while meditating, and disjointed as individual concepts instead of all bound together into a coherent whole. It very distinctly felt to me as though something akin to the visions I get on high dose LSD or a tryptamine-style breakthrough was just around the corner, but still firmly out of reach from the level I was at. Likewise, the headspace it gave me, while noticeably much smoother emotionally than most indoles, also appeared to promise much deeper things with just a but more of a push, as, though it never took me all the way to the level of immersion that I aim for on other chemicals with particularly similar psychological effects like LSD, it was already starting to take me into the same sorts of manic delirium, which is immediately recognizable to me regardless of the substance that induces it with some unique and consistent mind's eye visuals.

So, despite knowing that this is a phenethylamine and probably easier to work with when used in tandem with physical activity and external focus, I find myself simply fascinated by and drawn to these remarkably "indole-like" effects I've gotten from DOC, and I think in no small part probably also because they were so noticeably absent to me in the only phenethylamine I've really significantly worked with before, 2C-I, even in doses nearing 100 mg. I just can't help but wonder how deep this relationship can go, as the indoles that most strongly give me these same effects also happen to be my favorite psychoactive substances of all for exactly those reasons, so finding such strong hints of them in another clearly powerful psychedelic is just too difficult to ignore.

As a side note, I also recall from my trip that, very contrary to my expectations for this class of chemicals, I did not find DOC particularly stimulating, really at all until that late second phase you like so much and even then the stimulation was mild. If memory serves, during the peak I wanted nothing more than to lie down and get lost in myself, with the body load being the only thing that really pushed me out of it. So, part of my desire to use it this way also comes from the fact that, you know, it's just what felt most natural for me in that state of mind. I didn't want to get up and do something, I wanted to relax and see beautiful visions, and my past experience with these sorts of substances leads me to believe that if I felt that way last time, I'll probably feel that way next time too.

So, yeah.... Hence, the desire to dose higher. :) But also the concern about body load.
 
Took 4mg my first time. No real body load, lots of energy which made sexual activity very nice. Agree with xor that physical activity is important. Never had 2.5mg but 1.5mg at an amusement park was great...first 8hr was like 50ug of lsd, after that felt like adderall. Some wine in the evening smoothed it out nicely.

Also..hello kaleida. ?
 
Hello, morninggloryseed. <3 Don't think I've forgotten that we still need to catch up.... I'm finally, at long last, going to be moving back into my apartment over the next few days, so things should be settling down again. I am mercifully feeling pretty much normal again now too, minus the occasional itch with I think is just psychosomatic at this point.... Anyway, I'll be in a better place to talk again soon. :) I hope things are going okay with you too in the meantime!

Thanks for the DOC input too. It's interesting to me that this one seems to be pretty stimulating for people as it really wasn't at all for me.... I can certainly see how the physical activity solution would seem obvious with that, but I honestly just remember feeling heavy during the peak, not unlike many tryptamines, so there just wasn't anything in me jumping at the idea of movement. I have actually been noticing though, or at least this seems possibly the case, that over the last couple years I've sort of been becoming less sensitive to the stimulating effects of psychedelics in general. I can't even remember the last time I had to deal with the lingering energy following a trip that people like to complain about so much, I can easily fall asleep before fully coming down if I want or need to, even on something like a full dose of LSD. I suppose it's possible that this might just be a form of long-term tolerance though, and that raising the DOC dose could bring out the stimulation after all. But I wouldn't say that for sure yet.

Interestingly though, I did, as I mentioned before, find the headspace of DOC to be quite manic and grandiose. This is pretty uncommon with non-stimulating doses of psychedelics for me, even these days. A very intriguing substance indeed....
 
IME no, you cannot dose "beyond" the body load.

At my most intense DOC dosage (for me 4mg), I was in a good headspace and wanted to just lay still, but I was doing back bends on the floor, doing every stretch I could possibly manage in my state, in order to release the body load. Eventually I wound up taking a Flexeril, then later several benzos, just to get physical relief.

For me the body load scales seemingly linearly with the psychedelia.
 
IME no, you cannot dose "beyond" the body load.

At my most intense DOC dosage (for me 4mg), I was in a good headspace and wanted to just lay still, but I was doing back bends on the floor, doing every stretch I could possibly manage in my state, in order to release the body load. Eventually I wound up taking a Flexeril, then later several benzos, just to get physical relief.

For me the body load scales seemingly linearly with the psychedelia.

Although I haven't tried DOC yet I find this to be the case with every other phen Ive tried. For example when 2c-c got boring for me, I upped the dose and found the body load to get more intense where the trip itself was stronger but I for sure felt more physically uncomfortable. Same with 2c-e for me to.
 
Hello, morninggloryseed. <3 Don't think I've forgotten that we still need to catch up.... I'm finally, at long last, going to be moving back into my apartment over the next few days, so things should be settling down again. I am mercifully feeling pretty much normal again now too, minus the occasional itch with I think is just psychosomatic at this point.... Anyway, I'll be in a better place to talk again soon. :) I hope things are going okay with you too in the meantime!

Thanks for the DOC input too. It's interesting to me that this one seems to be pretty stimulating for people as it really wasn't at all for me.... I can certainly see how the physical activity solution would seem obvious with that, but I honestly just remember feeling heavy during the peak, not unlike many tryptamines, so there just wasn't anything in me jumping at the idea of movement. I have actually been noticing though, or at least this seems possibly the case, that over the last couple years I've sort of been becoming less sensitive to the stimulating effects of psychedelics in general. I can't even remember the last time I had to deal with the lingering energy following a trip that people like to complain about so much, I can easily fall asleep before fully coming down if I want or need to, even on something like a full dose of LSD. I suppose it's possible that this might just be a form of long-term tolerance though, and that raising the DOC dose could bring out the stimulation after all. But I wouldn't say that for sure yet.

Interestingly though, I did, as I mentioned before, find the headspace of DOC to be quite manic and grandiose. This is pretty uncommon with non-stimulating doses of psychedelics for me, even these days. A very intriguing substance indeed....

Yeah DOC's headspace can get pretty manic, it's definitely ego-boosting. I find the highest level of mania to occur during the second stage, post-peak.

My favorite way to take DOC is with a friend, doing something cool and engaging. I have had some interesting experiencing turning inward with it and listening to music, but all of my best experiences have been with my favorite tripping partner friend, on a river hike. We end up getting into the most amazing conversations, the kind where you both can't stop talking about anything and everything. DOC really helps to facilitate my words, and my mind feels like it's working very efficiently, it's very natural and easy to make new connections and understand what someone else is proposing very quickly. The sense of humor is greatly enhanced too, and I find great amusement in complex things. We end up talking a lot about the human condition or the development of life. I always gain something from these trips, bouncing ideas off another person. To me DOC is not a psychedelic for inward journeying, but for interacting with the external world.

Then again my first trips with it were all by myself, in my room in front of my computer, and I enjoyed those a lot too. I just think tryptamines, or something like 2C-E, are better for that.

As for spending time outside... you gotta just make opportunities for yourself. :) Every aspect of my life feels better when I have a strong relationship with nature. Perhaps you live somewhere where that is difficult, if so, I sympathize because I lived that way for some time (as a young kid we lived on the edge of Chicagoland and I actually got to explore cornfields and forests to my heart's content, but as I got older it grew around us until the edge of town was miles away).
 
Indeed, DOC+3-MeO-PCP+beer made me probably the most manic I've ever been lol.
 
IME no, you cannot dose "beyond" the body load.

At my most intense DOC dosage (for me 4mg), I was in a good headspace and wanted to just lay still, but I was doing back bends on the floor, doing every stretch I could possibly manage in my state, in order to release the body load. Eventually I wound up taking a Flexeril, then later several benzos, just to get physical relief.

For me the body load scales seemingly linearly with the psychedelia.

Ah, that's a shame! That's pretty much my fear for dosing higher as well, as even on that 2.5 mg I was already taking the occasional alcohol shot to help manage the body load. I'm still hopeful that I might be able to find a better way to avoid it, but my experience so far leads me to believe that my reaction might be a lot like yours.

If you don't mind me asking, did the Flexeril significantly impact the trip in any way? I've got access to that via family members, but I never cared for it on its own. It gives me a weird, almost Benadryl-like sedated feeling.

Although I haven't tried DOC yet I find this to be the case with every other phen Ive tried. For example when 2c-c got boring for me, I upped the dose and found the body load to get more intense where the trip itself was stronger but I for sure felt more physically uncomfortable. Same with 2c-e for me to.

That's too bad, though interestingly I haven't had any problems with body loads with the basic phenethylamines I've tried yet, primarily 2C-I, even in huge doses. Have you taken that one to compare to those?

Yeah DOC's headspace can get pretty manic, it's definitely ego-boosting. I find the highest level of mania to occur during the second stage, post-peak.

My favorite way to take DOC is with a friend, doing something cool and engaging. I have had some interesting experiencing turning inward with it and listening to music, but all of my best experiences have been with my favorite tripping partner friend, on a river hike. We end up getting into the most amazing conversations, the kind where you both can't stop talking about anything and everything. DOC really helps to facilitate my words, and my mind feels like it's working very efficiently, it's very natural and easy to make new connections and understand what someone else is proposing very quickly. The sense of humor is greatly enhanced too, and I find great amusement in complex things. We end up talking a lot about the human condition or the development of life. I always gain something from these trips, bouncing ideas off another person. To me DOC is not a psychedelic for inward journeying, but for interacting with the external world.

Then again my first trips with it were all by myself, in my room in front of my computer, and I enjoyed those a lot too. I just think tryptamines, or something like 2C-E, are better for that.

As for spending time outside... you gotta just make opportunities for yourself. :) Every aspect of my life feels better when I have a strong relationship with nature. Perhaps you live somewhere where that is difficult, if so, I sympathize because I lived that way for some time (as a young kid we lived on the edge of Chicagoland and I actually got to explore cornfields and forests to my heart's content, but as I got older it grew around us until the edge of town was miles away).

Yeah, I remember that river hike report, haha. That kind of experience does sound pretty awesome, I could definitely see the appeal. Unfortunately though I do live in sort of a difficult area for that, there's not really anything like that around here. There are of course a few parks and such, but they're almost all man-made and honestly pretty boring once you've been around them a few times, they don't seem to really hit that nature instinct in me like some genuine parks I've been to on vacations. Not to mention, they're all mostly open fields or forests with shallow paths, so I've never really been too comfortable with the thought of the limited opportunities for actual privacy when tripping at them in the past. Some day I'll be somewhere with those kinds of places though.... Good natural scenery is definitely going to be a top priority for me when I do finally move away from here. When that happens I'll certainly make as many opportunities as I possibly can. :)

Notably though, the way you describe DOC there does remind me a lot of my earlier experiences with MDMA, which for me does get pretty psychedelic in the later hours at higher doses. I actually did go walking around a local park with friends for a lot of those times, and that was pretty great, both socially and surprisingly also hallucinogenically, probably because of mixed psychedelic and stimulant effects I'm sure, as it sometimes got pretty delirious. For instance, I remember once staring up though a tree and seeing the branches arrange themselves into a ribcage with the leaves forming a beating heart at the center, and the friend I was with saw the exact same thing at the same time. We would talk at length about these beautiful things we were seeing and other aspects of life as the headspace was completely clear and focused despite that intensity, pretty much until the sun came up (it was always at night) and then we'd head home. Those were really cool experiences... but I just haven't really had the desire to go back to that particular place in a while, mostly because I've walked the same couple paths there hundreds of times already, and most of my friends who would go with me feel the same way. But, so, I definitely understand the appeal to it all.... I think I just need a change of scenery more than anything.

But, nonetheless, I'm still going to try to see how much an inward journey I can get from DOC. ;) I'm not going to argue that there are better substances for it or that DOC might be better in a different context, but it's just not really about those things for me. When it comes to psychedelics I live for the inward journey, and I'm generally going to try to seek it out on anything that seems even slightly promising for it. And, even if DOC is better suited for other things, I would still say that its promise in this way was considerably above slight for me. Though, I have been thinking a lot about this, and I've also been realizing that my expectations I think have indeed been a bit too colored by tryptamines lately, as I've done almost nothing else for years. Specifically, I realized that I am putting too much stock into the idea that an inward journey and a meditative mindset go hand in hand.... That may be the case with a great many of the tryptamines I've used, but with LSD for instance it's not necessarily true at all. I've had plenty of LSD trips where I went deeper into myself than almost any other substance has taken me despite the fact that I spent the whole time pacing and running and jumping around the house, the trip was just strong enough that that didn't really matter anymore. So, based on what you and others have said, I'm now starting to think that this may be my best plan of action with DOC... rather than trying to find a way to avoid the body load while relaxing, instead try to find some way to bring out the stimulation my first experience lacked. Pretty much, if I can get it to go a bit more like my LSD experiences, I think I might be able to get a good bit more out of it than I was able to before.

2C-E would be nice though too. :3 But unfortunately that's not really an option for me right now!
 
Yeah I think you would absolutely love 2C-E. It's incredible for inward journeys and just generally an absolutely top-notch psychedelic in terms of mental depth and visuals, and introspection.

I do find DOC similar to MDMA in a certain way. It seems to open me up and it definitely produces euphoria. In the second stage I vastly prefer to be with people because it makes me want to communicate. In the first stage I can either be with a good tripping partner, or by myself. But it can get a little hectic being around other people. But during the second stage I want to talk to anyone and everyone. :)
 
For what worth, at 4mg of doc the excess stimulation only really became apparent during the second phase. During the first phase/peak it was more about the energy.

I also think 4mg was a bit high, really only iboga/ibogaine has ever blasted me into another world like that. No regrets, it was an amazing place to be, but probably not something Id repeat. Next time 3mg should be just fine.
 
My friend and I took 1.2mg of DOC 9-10 hours after dosing around 75mg MDMA, and a combined 32mg of 4-HO-MiPT and 4-AcO-MET, having completely come down, and had really strong experiences. Although, sleep deprivation could definitely have been a factor there as we dosed the MDMA and the like at 9pm, then the DOC anywhere from 6-8am, can't remember exactly. And in between all of this, and onwards, 8%+ ABV beers and etizolam.

Considering how hard we'd tripped literally hours before, and all the GABA agonists involved, for 1.2mg to have the strength it did was totally unexpected.
 
Yeah DOC is a strong drug. I dosed 1mg a while back, I wanted to give a little boost to my hike but didn't really want to get too altered, and I ended up with visuals and tripping pretty solidly, it ended up being a wonderful day and I didn't sleep until the next night because it lasted forever (as usual). Really surprised me too.
 
Yea I've found that I can't go above 150ug if I want to microdose, otherwise I start to get too much of the DOC physical effects, which is distracting when trying to do everyday life errands and such.
 
That's too bad, though interestingly I haven't had any problems with body loads with the basic phenethylamines I've tried yet, primarily 2C-I, even in huge doses. Have you taken that one to compare to those?

Yeh Ive taken 2c-i quite a few times but that was about 5 years ago so its difficult to remember how the body load was for me. When I look back at my 2c experiences when I first got into psychs I don't remember any negative body load. Maybe I'm just being nostalgic and filtering out the uncomfortable parts of previous trips but now I find some phens to make me feel kind of rough at the doses I need for a full trip, 2c-c and 2c-e in particular. The 2c's are an odd bunch. My first trips on 2c-c where completely clean on the body and quite powerful visually at small doses and now the same batch with long breaks inbetween and low tolerance I need nearly twice the dose I used to enjoy previously.
 
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