Ethnobotanicals The Big & Dandy Datura Thread

[bongerman]

Exactly captaintom hit it on the head! To each his own some like pcp same person might hate pot lol

 

[daturaface]

Lets try get some datura quotes going, like things we've been heard to say, or have heard others say, under the influence of this plant.
I've never tripped with a sitter before, so i have no idea what occured during my blackouts, but i have some slightly murky memories of post blackout weirdness.
Once i was trying to walk home while datura tripping at about eight in the morning. I was wearing my boxers and a hoodie in the rain. I have no idea where my pantsor shoes ended up.While walking up to this lady who was checking her mailbox or something, I heard her mutter something along the lines of- 'You have been awake for a millenia for your own amusement, it is now time for you to go to sleep.' i can't remember exactly. Shocked, i turned to her and said 'What??' sharply. She looked terrified and said- 'i didn't say anything,' and i said- 'Didn't you tell me i need to go to sleep?' and she said- 'No,' and i said- 'Youmust be right, i do need to sleep,' and kept walking, with no idea i was on datura.
About half an hour later, i was at the gardens and there were a lot of morning folk going about their business. I'd figured out i was hallucinating and making a bit of a scene, so i decided to save face in front of the 'real' people by telling my hallucinations that i knew they were just my imagination. I somehow convinced myself that that would make me seem sane.
Also at the gardens, i saw my friend sitting on a grassy embankment and was like- 'Sorry buddy, i know you're not real. I can't be seen talking to imaginary people in public like this.' and he gave me this hurt puppy dog look and i kept walking, convinced he would soon turn inti a tree or something. A few steps later, i turned around to see what inanimate object i had mistaken for my friend, and to my surprise, he was still sitting there with this 'what the fuck?' look on his face. I kept walking for a bit, then turned around and he was still there. So i decided that he was in fact really there and started walking toward him going- 'Oh hey sorry man, i've eaten some datura and been seeing people that aren't there so i thought-' and then i got to him and he was a large rock poking out the side of the enbankment.
My brain'sa mischievous motherfucker. Made me feel sorry for all the people who have had to put up with me and my ways.

 

[bongerman]

I thot a female friend was my roommate before. I've also had constant loops of dropping a blunt in like a dream then waking up searching for it. Another time I kept trying to get my friend to drive me to the train because I thot I had somewhere to go. We were in the road yelling in the middle of the night no shirts just pants and I had a backpack. Next morning I thot I came down got into the car rolled a joint lit it and looked up and this car in front of me is jumping in four pieces. You really see weird shit and stay high for like three days.

 

[RobotRipping]

datura has always intrigued me as a psychonaut but never had a chance to try this or fresh nutmeg lol.

however i am interested in the alkaloids in the various plants, their pharmacology (if known) and how they interact with each other. It's kind of like san pedro vs peyote or something. I know many of the alkaloids have been isolated and used in medicine and people still trip off of those but that magical mix of alkaloids must have something special to it.

i've had plenty of deliriant trips with DPH mostly, which is mostly where my interest comes from as i'm one of the few to enjoy these experiences for whatever reason.

 

[Confield]

Hi, I grew some Datura stramonium plants just for fun last year and saved some of the flowers and leaves (plus the seeds of course for later use). I'm wondering, in case I should ever decide to consume any part of these plants, would these dried flowers and leaves be less potent than fresh ones, what do you think? I think I'm more interested in trying very small doses of datura to see what kind of subtle effects they might produce, rather than larger deliriant doses which I'll definitely save for a time when a sober sitter is present.

 

[Asante]

First off, Datura has MANY species, all with differing alkaloid levels and also with different levels of the different alkaloids proportional to one another. Different kinds of Datura give different kinds of trips and different levels of side effects. Hyoscyamine is highly energizing, Scopolamine is tranquilizing. Atropine and Atroscine each have only half the peripheral side effecis of the former alkaloids. Do you advise how to convert hyoscyamine to atropine and scopolamine to atroscine? No you advise to "eat a flower" almost assuring in most cases the maximum of levorotary alkaloids and the least racemic ones.

Next, gram for gram not all flowers are equal in potency ON THE SAME PLANT and tips and bases of flowers have differing alkaloid levels and proportions. And in different growth stages and freshnesses of the flowers the alkaloid levels are different.

Next, what is a flower? A B.Suaveolens flower can have 25x more mass than a D.Stramonium flower. Your dosage advice is a 25 fold weight ratio and the alkal;oids in them can vary fivefold. Dude, you just advised people to take an amount where 1 person can get 125x more alkaloids than another, and these alkaloids are of widely differing compositions. These different compositions have marked toxicity differences. Scopolamine has killed in 1mg doses, and often does so at 5mg. With atropine it usually takes 50mg. Some flowers are 99% atropine some are 80% scopolamine, which is a toxicity difference of a factor 8.. on the 125x ratio makes 1000x differences in lethality between flowers. Need I throw more numbers at you before you realize how bad an idea this is? There are cases a flower can underwhelm and cases a flower can kill.

 

[Elinisti]

I haven't ever tried delirious amounts of Datura but have sometimes chewed on a leaf or maybe 5-10 seeds (i spit the residue out because I think the mucus membranes filter some of the toxins). Seems to help with depression http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250308/ . Makes sense because I get depressed from choline supplements. The problem is that the toxins stay in the body for a long time. Smoking datura doesn't feel to be toxic and gives a slight tobacco-like feeling.

 

[red22]

Datura seems to have a prominent role in certain Asiatic religions. Here's a document I found online called, "The Use of Entheogens in the Vajrayana Tradition", which is mainly about datura. It's just a list of reading materials (but it's pretty long).

http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/rich_text_5.html

Traditional representation of Datura metel on a Tibetan medicine thangka (close-up)

The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants (Christian Rätsch, 2005), p. 206
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-...Zjc5My00OWE3LWEyMmMtOWVhYjE1NGQ3MWNl&hl=en_US

Seems to help with depression http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250308/ .

Here's some more info on that:

Furey says that scopolamine—best known as a motion sickness treatment—may have more potential as a fast-acting antidepressant. In 2006, Furey and her colleagues discovered its anti-depressive benefits. Unlike ketamine, scopolamine works through the brain's acetylcholine chemical messenger system, which plays a role in memory and how information is processed. The NIMH team's research showed that by blocking receptors for acetylcholine on neurons, scopolamine could lift depression in many patients within a few days.

"One important thing," notes Furey, "is that it doesn't work for everybody. But when it works, it works very quickly." Scopolamine has some side effects, like drowsiness and dry mouth. Moreover, there’s some negative Internet buzz about the drug. The side effects of scopolamine aren't bad, Furey says, "but it doesn't have a great reputation. There are some people who claim it has been used in date-rape type of stuff, which I haven't seen. It makes people a little bit nervous, which I understand."

http://news.yahoo.com/meet-antidepressant-eases-depression-hours-not-weeks-172649047.html


Maura L. Furey, PhD; Wayne C. Drevets, MD. Antidepressant Efficacy of the Antimuscarinic Drug Scopolamine: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006;63(10):1121-1129. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.63.10.1121.

Drevets WC, Furey ML. Replication of scopolamine's antidepressant efficacy in major depressive disorder: a randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Biol Psychiatry. 2010 Mar 1;67(5):432-8. Epub 2010 Jan 15.

D M Jones, M E Jones, M J Lewis, T L Spriggs. Drugs and human memory: effects of low doses of nitrazepam and hyoscine [scopolamine] on retention. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1979 May; 7(5): 479–483.

NIH Clinical Research Studies, The Antidepressant Efficacy of the Anticholinergic Scopolamine, Protocol Number: 06-M-0234

The above report cited the following journal articles, which discuss the biochemical basis for the use of scopoolamine for depression.

Janowsky DS, el-Yousef MK, Davis JM. Acetylcholine and depression. Psychosom Med. 1974 May-Jun;36(3):248-57.

Janowsky DS, el-Yousef MK, Davis JM, Hubbard B, Sekerke HJ. Cholinergic reversal of manic symptoms. Lancet. 1972 Jun 3;1(7762):1236-7.

Janowsky EC, Risch C, Janowsky DS. Effects of anesthesia on patients taking psychotropic drugs. J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1981 Jan;1(1):14-20.

Additional paper from the same research team I found, via Google:

Janowsky DS, Davis JM, el-Yousef MK, Sekerke HJ. A cholinergic-adrenergic hypothesis of mania and depression, The Lancet, 1972 Sep 23;300(7778):632-635

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

however i am interested in the alkaloids in the various plants, their pharmacology (if known) and how they interact with each other. It's kind of like san pedro vs peyote or something. I know many of the alkaloids have been isolated and used in medicine and people still trip off of those but that magical mix of alkaloids must have something special to it.

From what I've read, hyoscyamine vs scopolamine content varies between age of the plant (especially between growth and reproductive phases), as well as the part of the plant consumed. Not even getting into the differences between species, or any minor alkaloids.

would these dried flowers and leaves be less potent than fresh ones, what do you think?

They should be more potent by weight, since you've got all that water out.

I think I'm more interested in trying very small doses of datura to see what kind of subtle effects they might produce

I made a tea from the plant material, titrated up slowly from there, and then knew how much to take from a given batch. It's not the best tasting tea, nor the worst. The more you take, the more annoying the dry mouth and other side effects become (though I kinda enjoyed the blurry vision). It is mildly sedating, and promotes an emotionally neutral headspace. It is also an effective antidiarrheal.



From random datura thread, which previous few posts are in reply to:

As for ways of taking it, the most simply and effective way is simply munch on a fresh flower. It does not taste particularly bad, and this way you can easily monitor your dosage. Take literally a few small nibbles every now and then - the beauty of this method is, it is pretty hard to overdose - no-one wants to take a huge bite of a fresh flower - it's counterintuitive and physically difficult, as opposed to, say, gulping down a cup of tea or swallowing seeds.

a careful 24 or 48 hour fast, with just fresh juice and water is ideal

 

[Space__Kitten]

Datura?

I'd really like to talk to someone experienced with datura..I don't really know if it be something I would even ever want to try, even some of the glowing experiences on erowid involved shit that they're lucky to be not in serious trouble for. I want an unbiased oppinion...for example everyone says "just dont do diphenhydramine! its horrible!" tried it, wasnt scared. not a very good for recreation because of the lack of euphoria and the bodyload but definatly interesting. <<unbiased like that. tell me the pros and cons. My bf wants to try it badly, he's way way more experienced, used to be into heavy drugs, everything from lsd pcp shrooms speed coke somas and other stuff. I just don't like the idea of blacking out, waking up in jail finding out I had been running around naked chasing people and don't even remember lol.

 

[sekio]

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Datura.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Brugmansia.shtml

there's enough stories of datura trips there for a lifetime. the consensus is that anticholinergics don't really produce a "good" intoxication in the same way that other hallucinogens do, and they carry a higher incidence of things like heart problems.

you might appreciate it if you like really intense experiences like ayahuasca, salvia et cetera. but for the average non-shaman, it's going to be a bewildering and largely unpleasant experience full of confusion.

 

[EarthBounded]

Here ya go, watch this video and go 13 minutes in, really listen to what they are saying, I would discourage your BF from wanting to try it, I would recommend your BF try a high dose of YOPO snuff if he wants an experience similar yet safe, Yopo is a psychedelic containing DMT and Bufotenine, datura is classified as a anticholinergic delirium.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLDndri1830

The plant they go out and see first is Datura and the Shamanic woman tells them it will make them permanently crazy.

You will find in Yopo snuff you are unable to differentiate between reality and and the fantasy world, and this last for a day or two in my experience then you get it all back, you may not be the same after ingesting Datura

 

[FlawedByDesign]

^I was under the impression that 5-MeO-DMT was responsible for most of yopos effects. Although I have little experience with datura I have found that its effects are very similar to those of diphenhydramine and dimenhydrinate, typical anticholinergic delirium. The only difference is that with datura you can't regulate your first dose as you do not know the potency of your plant.

 

[bapae]

I would strongly advise him against doing datura, Unless he enjoys to delirious which i don't think many people do enjoy.

The outcome will most likely end him in the hospital or jail.

 

[Deinonychus]

Yeah, datura is not diphenhydramine. I admit sheepishly to having gotten 'high' on diphenhydramine a few times as a really young teen, when it was the only 'drug' I could get. It is generally unhealthy but also usually ends up knocking you out and you're thus usually unharmed.

Datura is not like that. Datura is a ticket to the ER or the morgue. Datura doesn't let you sleep off your mistake: it turns you into a fucked up zombie madman with absolutely no inhibition and scarcely more than basic animal reflex. Flight or fight doesn't go over well in metropolitan areas, or even rural areas for that matter. Further, if you take too much it literally *can* kill you from liver failure amongst other things. I have seen firsthand the effects of the stuff. I've never taken it and would sooner huff gasoline, but I knew somebody who took it and he ended up institutionalize for the better part of six months after peeing on an old woman and testing out his worst delirious karate moves on some officers, and then attacking a paramedic *with handcuffs on*, trying to bite them. That possibly sounds funny, or maybe it sounds like some stuff people made up cause it sounds cool on the Internet. Take the safe option and don't test or let anybody else test that hypothesis out.

 

[EarthBounded]

^I was under the impression that 5-MeO-DMT was responsible for most of yopos effects.

This is included as well, there are a few alkaloids in Yopo

 

[Yaj]

from what I understand datura will cause you to have complete hallucinations, meaning you will see things that are not happening while you and you're body are else where doing crazy things reacting to your complete hallucinations, not a scientific descriptions but you get the picture... with diphenhydramine as before mentioned you will have a strong urge to sleep and not run amok, from what I have heard with datura, not so... Traditional psychedelics will cause a distorted since of reality but you still are in reality, unless on a massive dose, whereas with datura you have completely lost your grip on real and not real leaving you free to react to whatever you "see"...

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Yeah, datura is not diphenhydramine. I admit sheepishly to having gotten 'high' on diphenhydramine a few times as a really young teen, when it was the only 'drug' I could get. It is generally unhealthy but also usually ends up knocking you out and you're thus usually unharmed.

High doses of diphenhydramine have never knocked me out. They would have me wondering the streets with massively dilated pupils joking around with my group of buddies who 50% of the time weren't there or screaming I'M NOT ON DRUGS in my poor grandmas face thinking she had made an accusation when in reality she hadn't said a word. My point is that the effects(Delirium) of these intoxicants are pretty similar. I agree that datura is much more dangerous, as I said in my previous post it is impossible to be sure of what dose you're taking.

 

[Yaj]

^Agreed deliriant=who knows what? If you wanna try them go ahead and see what happens... Come back and tell us what you did if you are in the proper stateofmind/custody to do so...

 

[Morphling]

Fuck that. Datura tends to really not work out well for anyone. If you absolutely have to experience something like this, try eating something with far more consistent alkaloid levels like 2-3 belladonna berries and hope you're not hypersensitive to the toxins. I'd for sure do an allergy test first.

Screw datura, 1000 times, thank you.