Tryptamines The Big & Dandy 4-HO-DPT Thread
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Sir Ron Pib
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Surprised this threads so dead. I tried 60mg plugged - next to nothing but reading here you need vodka to make it work but it isn't clear there is much potency increase. Weirdly 4HO-MET didn't seem that potent I.R. 15mg was way weaker than 30mg oral. Anyway last time I tried 120mg 4HO-DPT whilst fasting. Bit shaky-juddery coming up then it blossomed and it is lovely stuff. Someone here said 120 is nice but they would prefer 130-140mg and that sounds about right and wouldn't be excessive. Residual stim/baseline perhaps 11hrs or so. It's likely more potent that DPT - the best I ever got with that orally was 125mg following a decent dose of harmaline.
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Sir Ron Pib
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I know your experience wasn't totally positive but have you retested this - the potency you report seems a bit unlikely given it's strength by other routes indeed you were surprised yourself, no chance there was anything else left in the pipe? Could be one of those idiosyncratic responses. Not much left so I might try smoking the Hcl. salt and see if there is a massive jump in strength
cj187
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I wouldn't have done it without making sure the pipe was clean first. I don't think I tried it again after that but I had done it a few times before with the impure freebase 4-HO-DPT and I was impressed by it's potency those times too. I'm not quite sure what the dosage was but I don't think I inhaled much more than a few milligrams.
Sir Ron Pib
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Thanks cj187! Wow how strange the potency jumps so much, more than anything one would expect or has been seen with anything else comparable I can think of- it would certainly look like more should experiment with this ROA
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How did you get it into solution? I tried to IM 4-HO-DPT once and my friend and I managed to get 5mg into 3mL of water after like a half hour of heating and stirring (verified when we evaporated the rest and 5mg was missing).
Yeah I love going back and re-reading thoughts from the past. 
lamanogaucha
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As a kind of foreword, I'll post this small report regarding a test that I conducted in April:
"I tried this one for the first time last night: 110mg, orally. Onset began at scarcely fifteen minutes. The buildup was furious, like a roar. At first, I thought that this would be heavier than expected -- I even thought that things could go south -- but toward the end of the transition, I felt fine. The peak, which was exhilarating, came one and a half hours post-ingestion. Visuals were quite strong, along with the body high and euphoria. I obtained useful insights regarding marriage and aging. Sexual activity was good. The return to baseline began during the fourth hour. This return was smooth, with occasional bursts of eye-candy. During this phase, I did some house cleaning, stopping every now and then to take in the shimmering colors (which, alas, became less and less pronounced). The experience was over at the eighth hour, with some residual effects for another two. I experienced no bodyload, except for mild queasiness during the early stage of the onset, and slight headache/neck tension during the residual effects phase. This was a very enjoyable trip."
Fast forward about three weeks...
Two days ago, I tested 4-HO-DPT again, but this time I took 120mg, orally. Things were very similar to my previous test until approximately the third hour. At that time, the trip began to unexpectedly intensify. Simultaneously, I began to experience a pollution- and pollen-related allergy attack. These attacks usually require me to violently expel thick (but clear) mucus from my throat, so I went to the bathroom to do that.
The attack was relatively moderate, so I finished expectorating in less than fifteen minutes. However, during this episode and for another hour or more, the drug's activity continued to rise at an alarming pace. In view that the effects should have by now begun to dissipate, rather than dramatically escalate, I thought that perhaps the supplier of the chemical accidentally mixed something with my material. The escalation continued to the point where I genuinely believed that I took a large overdose of a DOx compound, or perhaps 2C-P or (somewhat less dangerously) a lysergamide.
Four hours after ingestion, my heart rate was so fast, and my vision so impossibly altered, that I began to panic -- I thought that I was about to meet the chef (I felt a spiritual presence), or at least have a seizure. I took 1.2mg of alprazolam and prepared to walk to the nearest hospital.
The walk took considerable effort, but I arrived in less than ten minutes. I was placed on a bed and given oxygen. Meanwhile, the nurses attached some wires to my chest and discovered that my heart rate and blood pressure were indeed far from normal, but not quite life-threatening. They then took blood and had it analyzed in a hurry. The result showed that my glucose level was jacked, so they hooked me up to an IV drip.
Shortly after that, I began to feel better. I also noticed that the trip's intensity began to quickly subside. Two hours after I arrived in the hospital, I was physically fine and completely sober, so I walked home, ate a small snack and went to sleep after I digested a bit. The total duration of this test was about eight hours, which matches my previous one.
So what happened?
It couldn't have been adulterated material (DOx, 2C-x, lysergamide, or even another 4-sub, et al.), because the experience would have been lengthier, not to mention that physical effects would have been more detrimental, or possibly deadly.
It couldn't have been set and setting, because both were good and familiar.
It couldn't have been my diet, because I eat very well and healthily. I'm not overweight or underweight. I don't smoke anything. I rarely drink (the last time was three or four years ago).
It couldn't have been a drug interaction, because I take none, except nasal antihistamine.
The only things that could have caused this response are, in my opinion:
* The coupling of an allergy attack with a strong trip (i.e. the coming attack turned the mental space into a somewhat negative one, which fed the allergy attack proper, which fed the mental space further, which resulted in a glucose imbalance).
* 4-HO-DPT itself. It's very possible -- and this has been mentioned before -- that this chemical possesses an unusually steep dose-response curve, perhaps beginning at around 80mg (orally). 120mg may be too much for most people with no tolerance, even experienced ones. Another possibility is that it metabolizes in a way that can cause health problems, at least with some users.
* I may be developing diabetes (although I don't see why).
Lesson: Be very careful with 4-HO-DPT, as there may be more to it than we know so far. Titrate and monitor.
"I tried this one for the first time last night: 110mg, orally. Onset began at scarcely fifteen minutes. The buildup was furious, like a roar. At first, I thought that this would be heavier than expected -- I even thought that things could go south -- but toward the end of the transition, I felt fine. The peak, which was exhilarating, came one and a half hours post-ingestion. Visuals were quite strong, along with the body high and euphoria. I obtained useful insights regarding marriage and aging. Sexual activity was good. The return to baseline began during the fourth hour. This return was smooth, with occasional bursts of eye-candy. During this phase, I did some house cleaning, stopping every now and then to take in the shimmering colors (which, alas, became less and less pronounced). The experience was over at the eighth hour, with some residual effects for another two. I experienced no bodyload, except for mild queasiness during the early stage of the onset, and slight headache/neck tension during the residual effects phase. This was a very enjoyable trip."
Fast forward about three weeks...
Two days ago, I tested 4-HO-DPT again, but this time I took 120mg, orally. Things were very similar to my previous test until approximately the third hour. At that time, the trip began to unexpectedly intensify. Simultaneously, I began to experience a pollution- and pollen-related allergy attack. These attacks usually require me to violently expel thick (but clear) mucus from my throat, so I went to the bathroom to do that.
The attack was relatively moderate, so I finished expectorating in less than fifteen minutes. However, during this episode and for another hour or more, the drug's activity continued to rise at an alarming pace. In view that the effects should have by now begun to dissipate, rather than dramatically escalate, I thought that perhaps the supplier of the chemical accidentally mixed something with my material. The escalation continued to the point where I genuinely believed that I took a large overdose of a DOx compound, or perhaps 2C-P or (somewhat less dangerously) a lysergamide.
Four hours after ingestion, my heart rate was so fast, and my vision so impossibly altered, that I began to panic -- I thought that I was about to meet the chef (I felt a spiritual presence), or at least have a seizure. I took 1.2mg of alprazolam and prepared to walk to the nearest hospital.
The walk took considerable effort, but I arrived in less than ten minutes. I was placed on a bed and given oxygen. Meanwhile, the nurses attached some wires to my chest and discovered that my heart rate and blood pressure were indeed far from normal, but not quite life-threatening. They then took blood and had it analyzed in a hurry. The result showed that my glucose level was jacked, so they hooked me up to an IV drip.
Shortly after that, I began to feel better. I also noticed that the trip's intensity began to quickly subside. Two hours after I arrived in the hospital, I was physically fine and completely sober, so I walked home, ate a small snack and went to sleep after I digested a bit. The total duration of this test was about eight hours, which matches my previous one.
So what happened?
It couldn't have been adulterated material (DOx, 2C-x, lysergamide, or even another 4-sub, et al.), because the experience would have been lengthier, not to mention that physical effects would have been more detrimental, or possibly deadly.
It couldn't have been set and setting, because both were good and familiar.
It couldn't have been my diet, because I eat very well and healthily. I'm not overweight or underweight. I don't smoke anything. I rarely drink (the last time was three or four years ago).
It couldn't have been a drug interaction, because I take none, except nasal antihistamine.
The only things that could have caused this response are, in my opinion:
* The coupling of an allergy attack with a strong trip (i.e. the coming attack turned the mental space into a somewhat negative one, which fed the allergy attack proper, which fed the mental space further, which resulted in a glucose imbalance).
* 4-HO-DPT itself. It's very possible -- and this has been mentioned before -- that this chemical possesses an unusually steep dose-response curve, perhaps beginning at around 80mg (orally). 120mg may be too much for most people with no tolerance, even experienced ones. Another possibility is that it metabolizes in a way that can cause health problems, at least with some users.
* I may be developing diabetes (although I don't see why).
Lesson: Be very careful with 4-HO-DPT, as there may be more to it than we know so far. Titrate and monitor.
lamanogaucha
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Glucose was about 20% higher than the normal maximum and myoglobin was nearly double the normal maximum. The other measured parameters were normal and on the lower end of normal.
Kaleida
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Zeta:
Ah, it's no wonder I missed this, lamanogaucha! It happened just about a month before I finally returned here from a long absence. I very much appreciate you linking me to the full story. Also, before getting into my more scientific response, let me just say that I am very thankful you are okay and nothing worse occurred! And I am very happy you recognized what was happening and went to the hospital when you did.
I must say, this is highly concerning. Speaking only from my incredibly amateur perspective on this matter, I feel I must mention that that it sounds very much to me like you may have been experiencing rhabdomyolysis. In case you aren't familiar with it (and again I am no medical professional so please take my word with caution, but I am basing this on widely available and regularly repeated information), rhabdomyolysis is a condition involving a rapid breakdown of skeletal muscle. While there are many things that can cause it and thus it is somewhat difficult to nail down with absolute precision, one of the most common (but to my knowledge not ubiquitous) signs of it first of all would be muscle weakness; I don't believe I saw you mention this directly, but correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that there may be a hint of it in your claim that "[t]he walk [to the hospital] took considerable effort...." More definitely relevant to what else you had to say, one of the primary symptoms of rhabdomyolysis is significant leakage of myoglobin into the system, potentially leading to kidney failure. Furthermore, rhabdomyolysis can be treated to full recovery if promptly administered IV fluids.
You may or may not know this, but rhabdomyolysis is a rather common severe and potentially lethal effect of "overdoses" of certain psychedelic drugs. It is documented in a significant number of NBOMe death cases, and a scientific study has already directly linked 25B-NBOMe-mediated 5-HT2A receptor activation to rhabdomyolysis in zebrafish larvae. Rhabdomyolysis has also been documented in non-NBOMe psychedelic emergency reactions such as with DOC, 5-MeO-DiPT, and DPT. In the case of DPT, it was also noted to occur alongside tachycardia. For what it's worth, 5-HT2A receptor stimulation has also already been documented to be able to increase glucose levels, and of course serotonergic systems in general are already well-known to be able to affect blood pressure and heart rate.
I would very strongly recommend that all current and aspiring psychonauts take this very important lesson to heart:
JUST BECAUSE IT'S A TRYPTAMINE DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S SAFE TO PUSH THE DOSAGE INFINITELY.
I do not mean to suggest that you were being particularly irresponsible in this case, lamanogaucha, as the dosage you took is not outside what I have heard about before or would have roughly expected translated from the dosages people were taking through non-oral routes of administration. In fact, we have taken 100 mg of 4-HO-DPT orally ourselves based on this reasoning, though while we didn't have an emergency reaction such as you did here, the body load we received at that dosage was already miserable, and it is what prevented us from pushing it further or taking it again in any way as of yet.
Everything I have said so far was based on research and information that I specifically tied back to 5-HT2A receptor stimulation. However, I would also like to make a more theoretical note, to be taken with a grain of salt at this point in time, that we have been doing additional research in our spare time that has led us to believe that most if not at all tryptamines can probably also produce anticholinergic effects if taken at high enough dosages, dosages that may not always or often be too relevant to the effects of most of them, but especially including the kinds of particularly large dosages required for tryptamines such as 4-HO-DPT. There are many claims throughout this thread and elsewhere that 4-HO-DPT, especially in particularly high dosages, can produce hallucinogenic effects that are unlike what the users are familiar with on most other psychedelics and tend to involve more realistic hallucinations, which would in and of itself be similar to anticholinergic deliriants, and, while it seems like the posts may have been deleted, there was once a report in this thread of taking 500 mg of 4-HO-DPT orally that resulted in what sounded to us at least like a complete anticholinergic delirium, including the conversations with people who weren't really there. While most of the time we have been researching the potential psychedelic-deliriant overlap personally out of curiosity related to how it might impact the hallucinogenic and mind-altering effects of these substances, it is also worth considering that altered heart rate, blood pressure, and glucose levels, as well as rhabdomyolysis have all been documented specifically as a result of taking anticholinergic drugs as well, and thus, if 4-HO-DPT (or other similar tryptamines) does have this kind of activity as well in addition to its standard serotonergic properties, its risk of having these problems occur could also be greater relative to other psychedelics.
On that note as well about people who have already taken dosages of this in the order of several hundreds of milligrams orally and survived, let's not forget that people have died on much smaller dosages of NBOMes than others were perfectly fine on.
I need to wrap this up now but that's about all I have to say about this so far anyway. Does any of this sound on point to you at all, lamanogaucha?
Also, I'm curious, what nasal antihistamine are you employing? Particularly because many antihistamines also have anticholinergic effects, which could of course plausibly increase the risk further both additively with any potential anticholinergic effects of 4-HO-DPT and independently from them if it doesn't really have them for the same reasons it having them could increase the risk on its own.
Once again, I thank you very much for the thorough report and warning as well, and hope you are feeling fully recovered and healthy as of now.
Ah, it's no wonder I missed this, lamanogaucha! It happened just about a month before I finally returned here from a long absence. I very much appreciate you linking me to the full story. Also, before getting into my more scientific response, let me just say that I am very thankful you are okay and nothing worse occurred! And I am very happy you recognized what was happening and went to the hospital when you did.
I must say, this is highly concerning. Speaking only from my incredibly amateur perspective on this matter, I feel I must mention that that it sounds very much to me like you may have been experiencing rhabdomyolysis. In case you aren't familiar with it (and again I am no medical professional so please take my word with caution, but I am basing this on widely available and regularly repeated information), rhabdomyolysis is a condition involving a rapid breakdown of skeletal muscle. While there are many things that can cause it and thus it is somewhat difficult to nail down with absolute precision, one of the most common (but to my knowledge not ubiquitous) signs of it first of all would be muscle weakness; I don't believe I saw you mention this directly, but correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that there may be a hint of it in your claim that "[t]he walk [to the hospital] took considerable effort...." More definitely relevant to what else you had to say, one of the primary symptoms of rhabdomyolysis is significant leakage of myoglobin into the system, potentially leading to kidney failure. Furthermore, rhabdomyolysis can be treated to full recovery if promptly administered IV fluids.
You may or may not know this, but rhabdomyolysis is a rather common severe and potentially lethal effect of "overdoses" of certain psychedelic drugs. It is documented in a significant number of NBOMe death cases, and a scientific study has already directly linked 25B-NBOMe-mediated 5-HT2A receptor activation to rhabdomyolysis in zebrafish larvae. Rhabdomyolysis has also been documented in non-NBOMe psychedelic emergency reactions such as with DOC, 5-MeO-DiPT, and DPT. In the case of DPT, it was also noted to occur alongside tachycardia. For what it's worth, 5-HT2A receptor stimulation has also already been documented to be able to increase glucose levels, and of course serotonergic systems in general are already well-known to be able to affect blood pressure and heart rate.
I would very strongly recommend that all current and aspiring psychonauts take this very important lesson to heart:
JUST BECAUSE IT'S A TRYPTAMINE DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S SAFE TO PUSH THE DOSAGE INFINITELY.
I do not mean to suggest that you were being particularly irresponsible in this case, lamanogaucha, as the dosage you took is not outside what I have heard about before or would have roughly expected translated from the dosages people were taking through non-oral routes of administration. In fact, we have taken 100 mg of 4-HO-DPT orally ourselves based on this reasoning, though while we didn't have an emergency reaction such as you did here, the body load we received at that dosage was already miserable, and it is what prevented us from pushing it further or taking it again in any way as of yet.
Everything I have said so far was based on research and information that I specifically tied back to 5-HT2A receptor stimulation. However, I would also like to make a more theoretical note, to be taken with a grain of salt at this point in time, that we have been doing additional research in our spare time that has led us to believe that most if not at all tryptamines can probably also produce anticholinergic effects if taken at high enough dosages, dosages that may not always or often be too relevant to the effects of most of them, but especially including the kinds of particularly large dosages required for tryptamines such as 4-HO-DPT. There are many claims throughout this thread and elsewhere that 4-HO-DPT, especially in particularly high dosages, can produce hallucinogenic effects that are unlike what the users are familiar with on most other psychedelics and tend to involve more realistic hallucinations, which would in and of itself be similar to anticholinergic deliriants, and, while it seems like the posts may have been deleted, there was once a report in this thread of taking 500 mg of 4-HO-DPT orally that resulted in what sounded to us at least like a complete anticholinergic delirium, including the conversations with people who weren't really there. While most of the time we have been researching the potential psychedelic-deliriant overlap personally out of curiosity related to how it might impact the hallucinogenic and mind-altering effects of these substances, it is also worth considering that altered heart rate, blood pressure, and glucose levels, as well as rhabdomyolysis have all been documented specifically as a result of taking anticholinergic drugs as well, and thus, if 4-HO-DPT (or other similar tryptamines) does have this kind of activity as well in addition to its standard serotonergic properties, its risk of having these problems occur could also be greater relative to other psychedelics.
On that note as well about people who have already taken dosages of this in the order of several hundreds of milligrams orally and survived, let's not forget that people have died on much smaller dosages of NBOMes than others were perfectly fine on.
I need to wrap this up now but that's about all I have to say about this so far anyway. Does any of this sound on point to you at all, lamanogaucha?
Also, I'm curious, what nasal antihistamine are you employing? Particularly because many antihistamines also have anticholinergic effects, which could of course plausibly increase the risk further both additively with any potential anticholinergic effects of 4-HO-DPT and independently from them if it doesn't really have them for the same reasons it having them could increase the risk on its own.
Once again, I thank you very much for the thorough report and warning as well, and hope you are feeling fully recovered and healthy as of now.
lamanogaucha
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Thanks for the very informative post, Kaleida -- it's certainly on-point -- and thanks also for the good wishes.
A case of rhabdomyolysis is a distinct possibility here, and that's what I've suspected for some time. Although my walk to the hospital was arduous primarily due to my near-inability to see -- visual effects were ferocious -- I did feel quite weak, as if my muscles had gone through an intense and chaotic workout. Further, my urine was unusually dark for several hours, which also suggests rhabdomyolysis. The things that I described earlier, along with your observations only reinforce this suspicion.
Physically, I recovered quickly, but psychologically, it took longer -- a week or two. You see, I didn't mention that shortly after my treatment began, an unconscious 16-year-old boy was rushed into the ER and placed a meter away from me, only to die in spite of the doctor's frantic efforts at resuscitation. As you can imagine, having a person, especially a young one, expire next to me in my then-current state demanded considerable mental robustness to handle correctly. I was shaken, but not beaten. The doctor later told me that the boy probably died due to some natural cause(s), but that only an autopsy and tissue/blood analysis could reveal the culprit(s). To be frank, I'm uncomfortable with the realization that the boost in my appreciation of life and its fragility came at the cost of witnessing a child's death. It's hard, but that's life. I'm fine.
My nasal antihistamine is azelastine hydrochloride. I take it one to three times per day on most days.
A case of rhabdomyolysis is a distinct possibility here, and that's what I've suspected for some time. Although my walk to the hospital was arduous primarily due to my near-inability to see -- visual effects were ferocious -- I did feel quite weak, as if my muscles had gone through an intense and chaotic workout. Further, my urine was unusually dark for several hours, which also suggests rhabdomyolysis. The things that I described earlier, along with your observations only reinforce this suspicion.
Physically, I recovered quickly, but psychologically, it took longer -- a week or two. You see, I didn't mention that shortly after my treatment began, an unconscious 16-year-old boy was rushed into the ER and placed a meter away from me, only to die in spite of the doctor's frantic efforts at resuscitation. As you can imagine, having a person, especially a young one, expire next to me in my then-current state demanded considerable mental robustness to handle correctly. I was shaken, but not beaten. The doctor later told me that the boy probably died due to some natural cause(s), but that only an autopsy and tissue/blood analysis could reveal the culprit(s). To be frank, I'm uncomfortable with the realization that the boost in my appreciation of life and its fragility came at the cost of witnessing a child's death. It's hard, but that's life. I'm fine.
My nasal antihistamine is azelastine hydrochloride. I take it one to three times per day on most days.
lamanogaucha
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Yes, it was, but it served as an important life lesson. My only regret is for the pain that the boy's family were going through. I saw that too.
I'll post excerpts from this conversation on the TR sub-forum after a few more posts appear.
I'll post excerpts from this conversation on the TR sub-forum after a few more posts appear.