Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[The Doc.]

O M G !!!!!!!!!!
That's terrible.... How can they do that to people?!?!??!
WOW that is very upsetting knowing that happens in this day n age.
Just awful....

Evey

Yes its horrible I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy its never happened to me but I always felt bad for my jubkie friends that went to jail and had to go cold turkey it's something that should be stopped and although im in Canada the great place I live and am proud to live in where we don't do that anymore its illegal To But it still happens way too much a round the world. I think the prison guards should be shot when they torture an inmate like this

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

Silly noob question!! Which I think I know the answer to but having a debate with a friend. Suboxone's ceiling effect that occurs around 4 mg give or take... Is that 4 mg sublingual dosing? I had always assumed so. It is not 4 mg IV... Is it? I always thought it was a standard 4 mg dose, not 4 mg making it to your brain...

The ceiling dose (what it may be per individual) i don't feel like starting another debate in this thread today that can't be settled.
It is not counting on 100% bioavailability of a sublingual suboxone. That won't happen, even with 6/7's sublingual alcohol & suboxone technique.
So since they are saying "Suboxone" has a ceiling dose of "X"mg i would assume they mean SL because that is how it is meant to be taken.
They are not saying IV buprenorphine has that same ceiling.. although it does have a ceiling.

 

[Eveleivibe]

The ceiling dose (what it may be per individual) i don't feel like starting another debate in this thread today that can't be settled.
It is not counting on 100% bioavailability of a sublingual suboxone. That won't happen, even with 6/7's sublingual alcohol & suboxone technique.
So since they are saying "Suboxone" has a ceiling dose of "X"mg i would assume they mean SL because that is how it is meant to be taken.
They are not saying IV buprenorphine has that same ceiling.. although it does have a ceiling.

You make some good points

Evey

 

[BlairsAmanda]

Can anyone tell me why a smaller dose of sub works better than a large dose?

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

I could.. but it has been covered countless times, plus I was just talking about it today and received skepticism as responses.

Check the old megathreads.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Can anyone tell me why a smaller dose of sub works better than a large dose?

The quick version.. at high doses, bupe begins to act more like an antagonist, rather than an agonist.. low doses of bupe also have the active metabolite norbuprenorphine, that is much more opiate like.

high doses just tend to produce a lot of unwanted side effects, and it's pointless because with the ceiling dose for effectiveness being like 4-8mg's for most people, you're not helping your withdrawal more or cravings more on high levels of bupe.. majority of people report no change in feeling going from huge doses like 24mgs down to 4.. and that is because they reached their ceiling dose a long time ago, never needed that much bupe to begin with, so they feel just the same minus all the negative side effects caused my bupe at high levels.

 

[downerman79]

Would it be safe for an opiate intolerant person to take 5 mg of diazepam 36 hours after taking 1 mg of bupe? Are there still dangers of respiratory depression at this point, due to long half life of bupe? I took 1 mg of bupe on Friday night, and I feel a little bit shitty right now, so a benzo would come in handy. This may sound paranoid, but I read too many warnings on Bluelight about dangers of mixing opiates and benzos, and my experience with opiates is limited, so I just wanted to make sure.

 

[LSDiesel]

Precipitated Withdrawal Question:
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Anyone who is experienced with going back and forth from dope to sub is usually a lot harder than going the other way around! I have read that a 3 day binge on dope will bring PWDs but that a 1 day binge will not. What about a 2 day binge? (which is what I'm kinda ending now)

Has anyone ever experienced the PWDs like... 5 or 6 hours AFTER dosing your bupe? I have recently, I thought I was in the clear after feeling fine for hours 1-4 after dosing bupe, coming off a dope binge, then the sweats started, lasting 2-3 hours in waves.

I have also experienced PWDs for about 2 hours immediatly after dosing, however its not too bad.

Has anyone ever been able to successfully sleep through a slight PWD from a bupe induction? Would you even know that you did PWD if you were sleeping though? I am thinking of dosing my bupe like.... in the middle of my sleep cycle, under the tongue, then right back to sleep. I'll report back what happens. Hope I don't just get half a nights sleep tonight

 

[Blacksheepannie]

I'm also new here and on the suboxone just 2 days. Does the nausea diminish. Should I take less than 12mg a day?

 

[Blacksheepannie]

I slept a few hours after starting suboxone and having 12 horrible hours of RLS.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

I'm also new here and on the suboxone just 2 days. Does the nausea diminish. Should I take less than 12mg a day?

Depends on your tolerance.. but i would think you might not need that much.
Maybe try 4mg 2x day = 8mg day.
Stablize at that and see how you feel. If you feel you can go lower than do it, at your own pace though.
The lowest effective dose is best in my opinion, as long as it still kills wd symptoms and cravings.
If the 12mg is making you nauseous but is getting rid of all wds i bet that 8mg will lower nausea and still hold wds at bay.
Slowly lowering your dose will keep wds from returning if you allow your body time to adjust between lowering the doses.. but if you start getting cravings other than the thought of "oh it would be nice to get high" (everyone gets those from time to time) but if you are debating on calling to get some dope or something than don't lower anymore and maybe consider going back up to the last drop before the cravings started.
Im guessing you could be easily held at 4-8mg despite your usage before subs.
But everyone is different.. that's just my opinion.

I slept a few hours after starting suboxone and having 12 horrible hours of RLS.

Are you saying the suboxone caused the RLS or relieved them allowing you to sleep?

 

[subutex_junkie]

I'm also new here and on the suboxone just 2 days. Does the nausea diminish. Should I take less than 12mg a day?

Welcome to BL. The nausea may diminish after a little bit of time of being on bupe but also, it may be the naloxone causing it too. I've heard from many people that the naloxone can have several unpleasant side effects, I've personally got slight headaches from it before and rarely, I can get a mild stomach ache for about an hour after I take suboxone. The fact that there's no naloxone plus the way cheaper price per 8mgs is why I just take subutex or generic pills that only have buprenorphine in them. If your headaches don't go away, I'd suggest talking with your suboxone doctor about getting on a bupe only medication if that's at all possible.

Btw, 12mg may be a correct dose for you but it is a bit high though, you'll have just to try then see what dose of bupe keeps you feeling okay and not craving opiates/opioids. I've heard that 4-8mgs is usually what it takes to keep someone out of W/D's but some doctors I've talked to say that it can sometimes take anywhere from 8-24mg of bupe daily to help different people with the mental cravings. I may be wrong about that, this is only what I've heard from a doctor but either way, up to 24mg a day is considered a really high dose of bupe no matter how you look at it.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

He might also be on too high of a dose.. we don't know what his habit was like before subs.
His dr might have just put him on too much of it which could be causing the nausea.
Before attempting to switch to just bupe without the naloxone (which a lot of sub drs wont do IME) I'd gradually lower the dose to see if that helps first, if not than do what subutex_junkie recommends by trying to switch.

 

[Eveleivibe]

I'm also new here and on the suboxone just 2 days. Does the nausea diminish. Should I take less than 12mg a day?

Hiya Blacksheepannie,

I apologised if you've made an earlier post that I have missed, but if not, your post is rather genial in answering if you should be on 12 mg of suboxone. My situation, in how I became prescribed suboxone, is slightly different to most people on here - and I am now on 12 mg per day. There are a lot of different theories on how much a person should be on. A lot of people say "less is more," that you do not need a large dose in order for it to work, block cravings, keep withdrawals at bay and let you live a productive life.

You are on suboxone, because you are addicted to opiates, right?! and because you want to overcome that addiction. In that respect, you're right to be on suboxone. If you are on 12 mg of suboxone and are persistently having side affects then you're either;
- on too higher a dose,
- the naloxone component may be affecting you
- you've only just bee put onto suboxone and need to give yourself time to adjust

As most doctors won't prescribe you subutex, Buprenorphine without naloxone, the first thing you may want to try is reducing. Maybe take 8/10 mg instead of 12 mg.
If, after say a week of so, you are still experiencing side affects such as nausea, then you are best discussing this with your doctor and see if s/he can try you on subutex.

He might also be on too high of a dose.. we don't know what his habit was like before subs.
His dr might have just put him on too much of it which could be causing the nausea.
Before attempting to switch to just bupe without the naloxone (which a lot of sub drs wont do IME) I'd gradually lower the dose to see if that helps first, if not than do what subutex_junkie recommends by trying to switch.

The habit beforehand doesn't necessarily matter, in my opinion. Most people on here know that I was on 900 mg codeine before going onto suboxone and I have never suffered with nausea. However, it is possible that the dose may be too high for Blacksheepannie as an individual as drugs affect everyone in different ways.

Take care,
Evey

 

[The Doc.]

Precipitated Withdrawal Question:
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\ /
\/

Anyone who is experienced with going back and forth from dope to sub is usually a lot harder than going the other way around! I have read that a 3 day binge on dope will bring PWDs but that a 1 day binge will not. What about a 2 day binge? (which is what I'm kinda ending now)

Has anyone ever experienced the PWDs like... 5 or 6 hours AFTER dosing your bupe? I have recently, I thought I was in the clear after feeling fine for hours 1-4 after dosing bupe, coming off a dope binge, then the sweats started, lasting 2-3 hours in waves.

I have also experienced PWDs for about 2 hours immediatly after dosing, however its not too bad.

Has anyone ever been able to successfully sleep through a slight PWD from a bupe induction? Would you even know that you did PWD if you were sleeping though? I am thinking of dosing my bupe like.... in the middle of my sleep cycle, under the tongue, then right back to sleep. I'll report back what happens. Hope I don't just get half a nights sleep tonight

I've gone from dope to sub many times with no precipitated withdrawals ever all I do is wait at least 4-6 hours right when I start to feel the first physical signs of withdrawals and I'm no longer high. I used to dose heroin at 7 am then at noon at lunch take suboxone and be fine as long as I feel withdrawals. Then again I have a ridiculously fast metabolism so since everybody is different for other people i recommend if you injected heroin last then wait 12 hours till sub's if you smoke/snort it then wait until 6 hours have passed to take sub's or just wait till your craving bad and in withdrawal when you normally start thinking of dosing again and youll be fine going by a set time is hard cause everybody is different. As for a 3 day binge making worse precipitated w/ds than a 1 day binge its true in a way for alot of opiates but with heroin its so short acting that most of it leaves your body in a couple hours so it doesnt build up too much in the body as much as drugs with long half lifes ie. Suboxone/methadone.

Ive started subs 6 hours from my last hit of heroin after a 2 week binge and never had any problems and ive done the same after a one day binge with the same results. But i have friends who have waited 24 hours and still got sick as hell after going on subs. I don't know why my body's different but I've shot up dope at lunch time before and then went and picked up my sub's at the pharmacy and took 2 mgs under my tounge less then a half hour after heroin and all it did was make me higher for the whole day. Weird. All I know is if somebody went into precipitated withdrawals during their sleep cycle then they would be instantly woken up covered in sweat with their body begging for more opiates. I never used to be able to sleep more then a few hours at a time cause even if I did a shot at 10 o'clock before bed then I would wake up at 1 or 2 am drenched in sweat and so sick and IF I didn't have any other dope to use in the middle of the night then I wouldn't sleep I would have to lay there till 6 am when I go to work. Ahh junkie life I always think about these nights when my brain is busy glamorising past heroin use trying to suck me back in but then I go nope just stay on sub at least you can sleep wonderful on sub's

 

[BlueHues]

^^There is no definite time frame for when it's safe to use suboxone, and there is no set time frame for how long you can use full agonists like heroin without having to go through the induction period on bupe all over again...

I used to be able to transition onto suboxone from heroin without any problems at all. I didn't have to wait longer than 12 or so hours. After a few years of that, it became harder and harder to go back and forth between heroin and suboxone, and now it takes me 3 days before I even feel stable on the sub, and I feel like shit no matter how long I wait to take the sub.

Also, if I use heroin any more than once, I have to go through feeling like shit for 3 days all over again! I can get away with doing however much heroin I have over the course of 3-4 hours, and then dose my suboxone as usual when I start to get sick, but if I use continually over a 24 hour period, I'm fucked! It takes me days to get back on the sub, and it jacks up my tolerance so much, I have to I use a lot more initially to even feel half-well....

We've been discussing this on BL for well over a decade now, and a few things we've collectively found to be true is:

The only guaranteed way to avoid precipitated withdrawal is to wait until you're in full withdrawal before inducting on the suboxone. Some people can get away with doing it sooner, but we have no way of knowing how it will be for you, the only way to find out is to try taking some and seeing what happens...which is risky!

The other thing we've found is that it gets more and more difficult to transition back onto the suboxone from other opiates the more that you "keep going back and forth"...

So, please refrain from giving people dosing advice unless you actually know what you're talking about...

 

[The Doc.]

^^^ nice one i told him wait till your in withdrawal I never told him to do what I used to do all I was saying is everybody is different so as long as you wait Till your in withdrawal you'll be fine i just told him my experience with making the switch i never said he would be fine to do the same you just repeated what I said then said that you find it difficult as time goes on to make the switch back and forth he never even asked that your just stating your own personal experience and saying that will happen to everybody. well ive heard the same thing on here too but I've known lots of people to say the opposite me included it got easier over the years to make the switch. Its obviously a very bad pattern to get into cause it seems like you can always use with no consequences such as being dope sick you always know you can fall back on the sub. Not everybody has a period on sub where you dont feel right lots of people feel great as soon as they start subs and don't feel like crap for 3 days. I have since smartened up and stick with my suboxone which i am almost ready to jump off from completely (at 2 mgs from 16 mgs and excited plus nervous to try living life without opiates once more)

Your snarky comment is really unnecessary blues hues as I do know what I'm talking about and many people would agree I'm sure.

With all due respect refrain from posting unless its actually relevant to somebody's question and don't repeat what I said in a different way then tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. You don't know me I study mental health and addictions in school to eventually become a counsler for drug addicts and work in the local detox facility as I have been in detox about ten times myself and always liked helping other people. I've used opiates and have studied them for almost a decade and have been going to A.A. for years even hosted meetings in the local detox so don't try telling me I don't know what I'm talking about cause I'll always call you out on your crap. Learn some respect just I'm not a moderator for here making 0 dollars an hour doesn't mean I don't know anything big shot. No offence to the other moderators the rest have been great and post answers very intelligently while showing respect. I hope to continue helping people blue light for the years to come as I enjoy helping others with something i have such vast knowledge about as I have lived most of my life experiencing addiction and helping others with theirs while also seeing the damage it can cause everyday. I always treat others with respect and dont look down on anybody unless they turn on me for no reason in which I'll have no time for you at all. So if you want to ban me for no reason other than standing up for myself okay then.

 

[BlueHues]

^Maybe I misunderstood you, and if thate 's the case, I apologize.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

Wow.. wasn't expecting that.
Most mods get really defensive if people have something to say about what they said, that is why a lot of people usually agree with them and most won't bother to argue.
I respect that greatly BlueHues.. I was waiting for an argument.
Maybe you mods aren't as bad as we all say behind your backs haha im just kidding.

 

[dirzted]

Buprenorphine is a shitty partial agonist that's good for maintenance because it has a long half-life....I don't care if the fucking pope, the prophet Mohammed and the second coming of Jesus Christ himself bless the pills/strips/gummies...It will never "get you high" in the way a full agonist opiate does, and that's not the point of getting on Suboxone in the first place!

No matter how you cook or season tofu, it will never be meat..it's just not possible! If buprenorphine actually "gets you high", the doctor who prescribed it to you has made a mistake and done you a disservice!

the tofu may never be meat but that doesn't mean it doesn't taste good....