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Spirit as Science

Ninae

Bluelighter
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Mar 18, 2010
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4,522
This is one of the subjects closest to my heart and it frustrates me how little appreciation or even thought goes into it. I'm guessing it won't provoke so much interest as usual with these things, but you never know so I thought I'd might as well give it a try. But this is some of my heavier stuff, I can also be really serious.

So what I find so frustrating is the artificial divide between science and spirit. This is something unnatural and man-made and has made such a mess of things. Peter Deunov was a great scientific thinker who inspired Einstein and others in their work, but most of all he was a spiritual teacher and lived his life as a kind of religious leader. He taught an holistic system of thought with science, psychology, and spirituality as one, as it should be, without the artificial divide we now have is in our culture, which achieves some of the same as keeping people illiterate.

Meaning, all fields of knowledge are kept separe from each other, and condradict each other all the time, which inspires ignorance. Or if you buy into one you have you reject the rest and end up limiting yourself by choosing one and keeping the rest out of your field of awareness. So if you've been trained in material science and believe in it you might feel you have to reject things of the spirit as "irrational" or "superstitious" (although not all, there are also some scientists who say they can see no contradiction between modern science and their belief in God, but most fall into that divide).

I see this all the time, in people who are spiritual seekers but afraid of being branded as stupid if they open themselves up to too much, when there is no need for this. There is also a spiritual science, as with everything else in life, everything that exists naturally has to have a science behind it. For instance, there is a science to beauty, but someone who hasn't been educated in it might see a beautiful sculpture or piece of music as a miracle and view it in a supersitious way, as they haven't been educated in things like symmetry, colour, and harmony. And this is the level humanity as a whole are still at when it comes to the spiritual.

This is a field which has been attempted to be described to us through various religions and belief-systems (any spiritual movement that doesn't belong to the main religion of a culture will usually be classified as a "cult" and this also contributes to limiting new initiative and our search for the truth) and personal, subjective spiritual/mystical experiences which can be achieved through various means. One of the main problems with this is that we tend to become more attached to the different systems of belief or religious/spiritual movements than the search for truth itself or the underlying reality they are trying to describe.

This is only natural, in that our desire for things like belonging, having a sense of identity, or just fun and entertainment is fundamentally stronger than our desire for finding the truth about things and making the spiritual dimension of life reveal itslf. Which is complex, takes time and effort, and doesn't offer much in the way of instant gratification. There's also nothing wrong with people coming together this way, although in our world it has been used in very negative ways and it's almost impossible to think of any movement which has been used only for good of people or to foster their enlightenment. As none are perfect, all are fallible, and no one, or very few, are able to room all of the truth within them. It would take immense awareness, and an enormous amount of energy, so naturally these are very few.

After studying theology all my adult life I've found that all the movements that have taken hold in our culture hold some truth in them and that is how they've managed to get a hold of the public consciousness. But there's none I've found to contain no untruths. The great Bulgarian teachers are the closest I can think of but their teachings have been kept very underground (I sometimes wonder what the world would be like if the Bible teachings were exchanged for that material). The trouble comes when people choose to identify with one system of belief and reject all the rest, or all that is opposed to it, as they think that's how it has to be done, so most of their energies are spent arguing with those who hold different beliefs rather than furthering their own spiritual development, and this is holding us back.

So this is a real problem, but the greatest problem of all is how all the sciences are kept separate from each other which keeps us from seeing the bigger picture. It's like we can't see the wood for the trees as we're been conditioned to believe one field of knowledge is separate from the rest. You could also say one who masters one field of science is knowledgable, and one who masters all is truly enlightened, but this isn't encouraged. Am I the only one who thinks like this, or are most just comfortable with the system we have and what we've always known, even though it's uneffective?
 
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Ninae, have you ever thought the problem might be with the way science looks at it and the way scientists objectively and subjectively understand spirit? In other words, maybe the problem is that the current scientific paradigm, as defined by Thomas Khun, cannot see spirit as a valid topic and therefore cannot address it? I admit it's a big stretch, but it is interesting.

Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
and the link to his book: http://projektintegracija.pravo.hr/_download/repository/Kuhn_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions.pdf
The book is dry, but it's worth reading and might offer a way to think of your question from the viewpoint of a scientist. What do you think?
 
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the spirit is the biggest assumption.

we are one, separation and illusion of self is simply a illusion.

theres no soul/spirit imo, only consciousness which is soulless/selfless

spirituality should be seen as science and has been seen by many other culture like hindouist or the brahman era or buddhism. meditation is called in pali the science of the mind: repeatable, explainable and can be experienced for everybody.

your right though, we are one retarded society when it comes to spirituality. we have been limited as human beings (and not spiritual beings living a physical existence) and the psychology and philosophical and science approach are very limiting and categorizing and reductionist in what and who we really are and our place in the universe imo.
 
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No, I know what you mean. I'll have a look at it. Of course I know it lies in the subjective realm but that doesn't mean nothing can be known about it.

In the course of the history of humanity there must have been so many who have come close to enlightenment or had genuine spiritual experiences. In fact, most come close before they die and could have a lot to tell about it. It's not like there hasn't been enough research done on millions and millions of people we couldn't have gathered the information to have a pretty clear picture by now. At least better then the mess we have now, and I don't believe it needs to be such a mess. It's just presented to us more like a puzzle.

But if single individuals like Buddha and Jesus were able to attain so much insight in the course of one lifetime there's no reason why humanity as a whole should still be at zero. That doesn't make any kind of sense. I also don't believe it's really like that, but the discoveries that have been made for some reason haven't been made readily available. Nazi-Germany is known for having conducted research on psychic abilities on millions of people and can hardly be unique in that regard. By now extra-sensory abilities has got to be quite well-researched and documented, and are part of the field of the science called meta-physics. So there must also have been some research done in the field of spiritual enlightenment or development of consciousness, or I find it hard to see how there can't have been.

It's weird, but there are still many who think things like telepathy and clairvoyance is superstition and doesn't even really exist as they have no personal experience with it or haven't been exposed to any of the research that's been done. It's just all the ignorance about it that makes these things seem so spooky when it's no more spooky than being able to read body-language, really. But what I find frustrating about it is that instead of us co-operating for mutual benefit everyone just wants to choose their side and fight for it. Because that is what the world does, but it doesn't get us very far.

Most don't seem interested in anything else, either, or are mostly interested in defending what they perceive to be "their side". So when people are so pre-occupied arguing over whether they're theists or atheists, and seemingly find it so fulfilling, there's not much energy left for anything else. Spiritual experiences are eventually attainable to anyone who makes enough effort and not as far out there as many think.
 
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telepathy, clairvoyance ect is seen as spooky because it doesnt bring answers imo.
what individuals want in our society is happiness, now, fast.

I really only believe in meditation because this is the only thing for me that is changing my life. stopping that inner mind and not letting him be in charge really is life changing, but people just dont know how to do it and what to do with the mind. so we entertain him and feed his non stop desire because we feel we have to in order to be happy.
I feel though that more and more people are slowly but surely realizing that our way of life is unfulfilling

the sad truth its that nobody really know what to do to cultivate happiness and we follow the easy way which is running after sense gratification. it makes sense while it last I guess :)
 
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your right though, we are one retarded society when it comes to spirituality. we have been limited as human beings (and not spiritual beings living a physical existence) and the psychology and philosophical and science approach are very limiting and categorizing and reductionist in what and who we really are and our place in the universe imo.

Exactly. Rather than seeing us as immortal spirits having a temporary experience in this realm they see us as mortal creatures of flesh and blood and daydreaming about anything else is silly. Even many of those who are open to the idea of a spiritual dimension to life falls down on this approach when it comes down to it as they fear ridicule (men more than women).

Human beings have a strong fear of going against the majority, and for good reason, so most are wary of standing behind anything until it has close to 100% support. I see this every day, especially in the field of health, no matter how mindless and harmful something is they won't speak out against it before they have the majority and official guidelines on their side.

It can be compared to being in a dream where you know you're dreaming and aware there's another life when you wake up, but keep insisting the dream is all that matters. When I was a teenager I read a famous book called "Illusions" and couldn't understand it then, or it seemed very mysterious and like the exact opposite of everything I had come to believe, but I understand it now. It wasn't an exaggeration (more the contrary).
 
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yep, but sometimes its more comfy to be underneath a warm blanket then to try to stand in front of the cold without any technique on how to deal with the cold.

thats what is happening. nobody knows what to do and those who know do not have much visibility in the media.

we are stuck in that system which do everything it can to survive (even reject the truth).

the society is to blame, not the people.
 
The distinction between science & spirit is not between material & immaterial world.

The science of the spirit is psychology. Things like clairvoyance, telepathy cannot be proven by the scientific method, that's why they are non-scientific.
Similarly in physics, questions about the action-on-distance of gravity, the nature of fundamental particles, are issues which can not be answered by the scientific method.

If you want to really make spiritually a science, I think the only way to do this is to do historical work. Only by showing that people have consistently have had the same experiences over and over again, and certain things are invariant through time, and transcend the level of personal subjective experience. Only then, spiritual experiences would survive the measure of the "scientific method." But as long as people (like you often tend to do) keep on telling stories like "I have this special kind of spiritual experiences and knowledge, I cannot prove it, and you don't understand me, but I have the truth," there is no reason to take spirituality serious, and anything but anecdotical.
 
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psychology is not science of the spirit at all. they are all only theories: nothing can be proven and its only speculation. its interesting up to a certain point, but the psychological aspects of religiosity is far from well developed and totally superficial in psychology. I know, ive taken many class on religion and psychology in college and its very superficial.

science should be explainable, repeatable and true for everyone. fact is, life/reality is experiential and science is observation. theres a big distinction in what we experience in reality and what we can observe of that reality.

I wont go into detail, but I find psychology totally wrong and do much more wrong then good in our society.
 
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nobody knows what to do and those who know do not have much visibility in the media.

we are stuck in that system which do everything it can to survive (even reject the truth).

the society is to blame, not the people.

Religion used to be the political program that steered public opinion but now people are daydeaming those dark days are over and we are so enlightened. Our opinions are just formed by the media, popular culture, and official information instead so religion has been made obsolete. Religion is torn down in every channel apart from church and religious studies in school so there's no wonder people's feelings towards it is so negative (and I don't like what religion was any more than I like the general media now).

About telepathy, clairvoyance, etc. this can be easily verified. Just put two people in different rooms and make them communicate with thoughts or pictures and you will soon get an idea. I was even able to pick up 27 of 30 images that was sent to me from the other side of the world with no time lag so this is obviously a simple technology. That was a more focused exercise, but I often know what someone are going to say in advance in every-day life and it's really not that strange.

Children are naturally telepathic, that's how they learn to speak, we don't actually have to teach them every word. So it seems like a natural ability that's been suppressed and drowned out by all the other noise in the world. I remember when I was 1 1/2 I was able to understand what people said about me when they talked in sentences I still couldn't use. When they would say things like "She's feeing shy now" or "She wants to be by herself", etc.


psychology is not science of the spirit at all. they are all only theories: nothing can be proven and its only speculation. its interesting up to a certain point, but the psychological aspects of religiosity is far from well developed and totally superficial in psychology. I know, ive taken many class on religion and psychology in college and its very superficial.

science should be explainable, repeatable and true for everyone. fact is, life/reality is experiential and science is observation. theres a big distinction in what we experience in reality and what we can observe of that reality.

I wont go into detail, but I find psychology totally wrong and do much more wrong then good in our society.

People take psychology as gospel because they feel it's better than the alternative, i.e. nothing. Psychology is also one of the official programs that replaced religion, along with medicine. It's just that medicine also does so much that is good and essential that people see no other way than swallowing the bath water with the baby.

Doctors have lied to me, or just told me a lot of crap, more times than I can count now ("That lobotomising medication will make you feel relaxed/avoid cramps"). But if I think about it too much I just get angry.
 
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Well, psychology is vague term. Psychoanalysis, for example, is clearly unscientific. But other subdomains, like psychology of cognition, psychology of perception, psychology of child development, behavioral theory, psychological theories of autism, quantitative/statistical approaches to psychology, etc. These are, to me, clearly scientific. Yes, they are not exact and the theories cannot be all quantified. But the theories can be falsified (Popper) and correspond to reality, though there is no 1-1 correspondence. Does that make it unscientific because it does not apply to all phenomena? Is Newton's theory unscientific because it does not explain all natural phenomena? I don't think universality should be an a priori criterion of scientificalness.
 
science/ psychology are words with many meaning :). Words in themselves rarely portray reality. bits and parcel of reality, but reality/ life remain a experience in which any analyse of that experience is far from depicting what is real.

psychology is problematic because it depends on others testimony and or observable reality. testimony can only be transmitted with language which is in itself highly abstract and limited. I do believe in behavioral patterns but I also believe that patterns can be changed and that any psychological problem can be changed.
a scientific fact is something that cannot be change id say.

psychology is useful, but there's dramatic limitation. all im saying. it can be helpful for serious psychological disease, kid development, traumatizing episode, and for many other reasons, but for religion studies, its totally superficial and not scientific at all. worse, its actually very reductionnist.

Well, psychology is vague term. Psychoanalysis, for example, is clearly unscientific. But other subdomains, like psychology of cognition, psychology of perception, psychology of child development, behavioral theory, psychological theories of autism, quantitative/statistical approaches to psychology, etc. These are, to me, clearly scientific. Yes, they are not exact and the theories cannot be all quantified. But the theories can be falsified (Popper) and correspond to reality, though there is no 1-1 correspondence. Does that make it unscientific because it does not apply to all phenomena? Is Newton's theory unscientific because it does not explain all natural phenomena? I don't think universality should be an a priori criterion of scientificalness.
 
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I think the psychiatric definition of religion is that it's connected to the early anal and oral phase of childhood and used as a coping mechanism for the fear of death in the human animal. :)

In the other hand, where does healing energy come from? How does your hands become warm and electrically charged when you think of someone with love? Or you can feel it when someone touches you with spiritual love?

I think traditionally those who've had strong experiences of a spiritual nature, and haven't been rich or high-status, have been confined to the asylums (and often been lobotomised).
 
I dont think its necessary the most accepted definition. theres many different psychological theories on the religion phenomena.
I think the psychiatric definition of religion is that it's connected to the early anal and oral phase of childhood and used as a coping mechanism for the fear of death in the human animal. :)
 
if telepathy, clairvoyance, etc had any grounding in reality then we'd see much more widespread usage of them. My two cents is that they're no more "real" than love or religious ecstacy- e.g. they are excursively the domain of self-delusion.

Similarly in physics, questions about the action-on-distance of gravity, the nature of fundamental particles, are issues which can not be answered by the scientific method.

Well, except they can. And that's why we call things like the study of gravity 'physics' and not 'metaphysics'... we can do things like measure the gravitic deflection of huge lead balls for instance. Or measure the deflection of light by large stellar masses.

The thing that rubs me the wrong way is that telepathy clearly isn't some sort of underlying cosmic force if any sort of experiments make it fall apart under even the lightest attempt to control or scrutinize it.
Given the times and distances involved, it'd also be a clear violation of causality, and then... well, I dunno.
 
IS it an artificial divide though?

I see spirituality as being to do with (for want of a better term) the astral universe, or the realm of consciousness as distinct from simply being awake in a body. But Science is to do with the Solid, a system for elucidating and defining the world we inhabit while awake.

I don't think Science can ever deal with spirituality because IMV, spirituality is not based in the same reality that Science sees.

e.g. I doubt Psi powers will ever fall within the realm of Science because they are non-repeatable. i.e. there appear to be conditions needed, or maybe states of mind, for the ESP or Psi to be usable, and Science demands a set stage, a set of conditions that will be exactly the same each time. I don't know if Consciousness operates in that fashion, being far more flexible and creative.
 
But we HAVE violation of causality in Physics. Instant changes of particle information across distance for example. Whatever it might be that happens just inside an event horizon would also seem to violate causality - if BH's exist at all. :D

We have names for things like gravity, and we can measure how they influence the gross physical reality, but we do not know what they are. e.g. far from 'proving' the Higgs particle, the recent results pretty much nuked both the main theories about it. It seems NOT to be either multiverse-type or string-type at all as the results fell in no-mans-land in between the two expected values. The "we've found it" was a PR show - can't spend billions on a tool and then tell everyone all our best theories are wrong, can we? :D

Electric and magnetic fields are the same - we can label and measure and use them but we have no idea what they actually are. In fct Astronomy goes out of it's way to deny any influence they might have on the formation of stars, galaxies and other structures, yet both are billions of times stronger than gravity.

Then we come to our recent theories of things - both Relativity and Quantum theories seem to require the observer in some way. It seems not a huge leap to think maybe the 'observer principle' might be meaningful in the Universe and if so, there may be effects attached to the observer that don't easily define into the Cosmos being observed.
 
IS it an artificial divide though?

I don't think so. Science can only really obtain and describe objective truths. Spirituality is pretty much always subjective. I don't think you'll find any reliable objective truth in the realm of subjectivity or inner experience, nor will you find that saying "It is my opinion that the world is round" holds much weight with scientists. They, to me, are relatively distinct, in only one aspect. Fundamentally though, they are examining the same thing; or, at least, the two primary aspects of EXISTENCE, that is the inner and the outer (or physical/solid and non-physical if you prefer). I think that they are distinct and necessary.

Science says we live in a formless, meaningless and aimless universe. There is no kind of objective purpose or reason behind what we do. There is no built in structure, no fate or destiny. There is no ultimate truth or meaning, there is nothing outside ourselves, that there is help coming for us. There is no right path. There's no path. World without end.

For me, my inner being says that this is all true. And it really asks me to think about why formlessness or meaninglessness is bad. If there is no right path, there is no wrong path. If there is no structure, that doesn't mean that I cannot create one. The truth might be that the 'right' path is always, can only be the path that we are on. Which sounds like fate really. In a way, science, in explaining the amorphous un-reality of the universe, has actually given weight to the 'truth's' previously known only to my spirit, that you cannot go wrong on a journey that it is impossible to go right on, that you are free to do anything you want and failure doesn't even exist.
 
So... your first 4 words actually disagree with what I am saying even though the rest of your post says pretty much what I said...? :D

Coolth... :D
 
^Hang on, I meant to agree with you! How did I.... :D

Ah, I see: I was saying that I don't think it is an artificial divide; the divide itself is real, there IS a distinction (on the surface)... What they share is the fact they are simply different ways of looking at the same things. Like different lenses on glasses are still all lenses.
 
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