Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

DragonRider97 · Jul 17, 2010

GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.

"AND THATS HOW IT WORKS!"

Amen Lacy, I can be down with that...Peace!

DragonRider97 · Jul 17, 2010

paranoid android said:
And who gives a fuck if you work 40+ hours a week? Also define a normal life because normal really is not a definition. Normal for some people is drinking 3 bloody marys for breakfast or shooting heroin first thing in the morning. For others it's being dependant on your sponsor and AA/NA. For other people it's just the ordinary bullshit that goes with everyday life.

So far your logic does not seem to logical atleast to me.

Wow, it's not about "NORMAL" behavior, it's about "HEALTHY" behavior, behavior that allows us to be productive members of society. Methadone Clinics have been shown to be a dramatic failure, they just change one unhealty unproductive addiciton for another. Whereas, AA is a program of action, and responsibility, and yes...a Higher Power. I know you guys think I'm talking out of my ass, but I have NO DOUBT that the program will work for me as it did fourteen years ago in my alcholism. (A much bleaker tiime of my life actually). And hey, if you can drink one or two drinks and put it down, good for you, if you can take a couple of hyco once a month or so to relax, good for you, I can't, and I had to come to that realization. Step one....

That's how it works...

DragonRider97 · Jul 17, 2010

paranoid android said:
Newphone i was a raging alcoholic for years and quit about 7 years back with a few relapses here and there mostly related to certain events in my life. But i drank a beer yesterday at a bar and only had that 1 beer even though i had plenty of cash in my pocket.

Keep trying that and see how long it works for you...

Look, I'm not saying your an alcholoic, you said that yourself, and you had a beer...that's called a RELAPSE, but the good news is, there's a program out there, somewhere, that will work for you, when you make up your mind that you want it bad enough.

Your Higher Power has nothing to do with religion, it's about spirituality, you've been to enough meetings to know what I''m talking about. You just don't want it yet, so you knock it, hey, if you can now drink normally, more power to you!!! and I mean that!!

Khadijah · Jul 17, 2010

No, it aint called a relapse if you dont go back into addiction. If you make a non-impulsive, well thought out , rational CHOICE to use, that is alot different than "slippin up" or "relapsing." When it aint a involuntary mistake, but instead it is a decision that you make , consciously, I wont call that a relapse, especially since it didnt end up as a negative thing.

I was addicted to heroin for years, and after getting clean and gettin my head right, I was able to use from time to time, every couple months usually, and be satisfied with that. I would get high, enjoy my recreational use, and then forget about it. Since then I stopped usin completely, but i was absolutely able to use, successfully, without no negative effects or desire to CONTINUE the use. That "more more more" addict part of me was not there wanting more. I was able to go back to the kind of use that non-addicts do. Wat Im saying is that Addiction aint permanent for everyone. For some it is, but others of us ARE able to go back to controlled, successful use that never gets out of control or causes us to fall back into old habits. there has been many scientific studies that show that a certain percentage of alcoholics and addicts ARE able to return to occasional, recreational use WITHOUT falling back into addiction, after they get their life in order and get their head straight.They aint a majority, but they are real. And thats one problem i got with the program is that it preaches that once you are addict, you are always gonna be that way, and can never go back to using recreationally. But you can, I am living proof of it and I seen it in action enough times to know that its true.

Dont get me wrong i aint sayin every addict can use safely without becoming addicted again, but it is a VERY REAL thing that some of us CAN. It aint just that you are either a addict and cannot control your use, or you are a non-addict, and you can control your use. There is also recovered addicts who are able to use occasionally, without no ill effects, and are totally satisfied and happy with that. I was one of them and i known a few myself.

Now on to your post before that about methadone. I am sayin this from a completely logic-centered point of view. Not a methadone promoting one, simply a scientific, factual one. You are very wrong to say the shit you did about methadone being a ineffective treatment.

Methadone clinics have ABSOLUTELY NOT been proved to be a horrible failure. Methadone is the most effective, reliable treatment that there is for addiction. it has the longest record of use, and there has been enough studies and monitoring of it for there to be plenty of data about how effective it is. Its just straight up, factually incorrect to say that methadone is a failure of a treatment. For example, here is just one source

Methadone is widely employed throughout the world, and is the most effective known treatment for heroin addiction. (2). The success of methadone in reducing crime, death, disease, and drug use is well documented. (3).

The benefits of MMT have been established by hundreds of scientific studies, and there are almost no negative health consequences of long-term methadone treatment, even when it continues for twenty or thirty years.

* Methadone is the most effective treatment for heroin addiction. Compared to the other major drug treatment modalities—drug-free outpatient treatment, therapeutic communities, and chemical dependency treatment—methadone is the most rigorously studied and has yielded the best results. (4)

Note that they said methadone is the most effective, compared to THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITIES, which INCLUDES NA and AA, and non-drug outpatient treatment (such as counseling, group therapy, etc.) which would also apply to NA-type groups.

These are the FACTS. Actual-factual, proven, totally back-up-able, scientific evidence has found this to be true. When it comes to somethin as cold, hard, and clear as facts and not opinions, please dont let your personal ideas about it cloud ur judgement. Becuz the truth is that whether or not you agree with MMT for addiction treatment, these are the proven facts about its effectiveness.

i could keep posting these reports, over and over. there aint no shortage of evidence about methadones effectiveness. And I will, if you want me to. but i figured I wouldnt bore yall. But the proof is out there, and it is overwhelmingly in support of methadone.

If you deny the facts when they get presented to you, it turns your argument from a valid one into somethin else. When you can look at facts and blindly ignore them becuz u disagree, that really makes your opinion hold alot less meaning. I aint saying that you WILL be that way. Im just pointin out that I enjoy discussin shit like this with people , even ones I disagree with. But you cant have a intelligent discussion with somebody who cant accept factual evidence that proves somethin they dont wanna hear, so i hope that youll be able to accept those facts and not have the reaction that alot of other program members I have talked to tend to have.

here are the source studies , btw:

(2) Institute of Medicine. Treating Drug Problems, vol. 1: A Study of the Evolution, Effectiveness, and Financing of Public and Private Drug Treatment Systems. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1990:187.
(3) (NSFW becuz its a long list)

NSFW:

(4)

NSFW:

That is from drugpolicy.org, a well known and established source for information about this type of shit. I know dont nobody wanna read thru all that footnote source shit, but i wanted to put it there just to show just HOW much studies have concluded this information, that it aint just one or two but it is a solid, well understood thing. That in the addiction treatment community of doctors, rehabs, etc, that the overwhelming, general agreement is that methadone is the most effective treatment that is available. This aint just my opinion, this is the facts, and whether or not i think methadone is a good treatment aint relevant, becuz the facts speak for themselvs.

Now for the OPINION part of my post--Methadone aint trading one unhealthy unproductive addiction for another.

First of all, you are DEPENDENT on methadone. you are ADDICTED to heroin. Once you get on methadone, unless u are abusing it of course, you aint gettin high from it, you aint catchin a buzz or a nod. You may be physically dependent on it, but you aint addicted. You aint like "ohhh, yea, my methadone, oh baby, cant wait to get that shit in my veins, ooohhh yea methadone" like you do with dope. it aint like "Oh god i love methadone so much, I wish i could just do methadone all day long" like it is with dope. You dont crave it, you dont need it, you aint desperately in love with it, it aint your whole life like heroin is.

Its simply a medication you take, it stabilizes you, and thats that. Dependence is one thing. addiction is the harmful thing. A person who is on a opiate medication will become dependent on it. that is the physical part. The emotional psychological part is addiction. Once you start feeling like you need it, cravin it, wanting it more and more, and gettin that whole mental obssession with it you have addiction. And ADDICTION is wat causes all those harmful things and causes the shitty lifestyle. A dependent person needs to take their meds becuz if they dont take it they will get sick, but they aint freakin out, they aint goin to crazy lengths to get the drug, they aint willing to risk everything and anything to have it, it aint taking up every moment of their life, their life aint all about the drug like it is during addiction.

And at least as far as Im concerned, the point of getting clean, is to be FREE FROM THAT ADDICTION.

If you aint having junkie thoughts. If you aint craving the drug, if you aint obsessing over the drug. if your every wakin moment aint full of thinking about it, wishing for it, filling ur mind with memories of the old times when u were high. If you dont want it 24/7. If you aint willing to do crazy shit to get it. If you are happy without it--Then you are living without addiction. If you are dependent on Methadone, but your life is free from the ADDICTION...thats the point if you ask me. Methadone allows people to be stable and function. Instead of fillin their time with drugs and tryin to get drugs and hustling for drugs and finding drugs and usin the drugs, it is free to be used for more. Once that every day struggle is gone, that CHAOS that fills the life of a addict, gets replaced with stability and for the first time in a long time, the chance to do somethin "normal" for a change.

When you addicted to dope your whole life is focused on not gettin sick, makin sure u got money for dope, a ride to get the dope, etc. It takes up the entire day just to hustle up enough money, go cop it, and then finally get right and by the time you do , the day is shot and all you can do is go home and nod out and get ready to do it all over again the next day. Once you got the methadone, thats DONE. That whole entire lifestyle is out the fuckin window. You aint gotta deal with all that. Suddenly you got a whole LIFE ahead of you again, for you to use and make somethin of it.

In the past I did go to a clinic a few years back. And let me tell you, there was more people there with jobs than not. When i went in the morning, everybody was on line before they opened, so they could get in and still get to work on time. I saw people dressed up in business suits and shit like that, even. All kinds of people, but there was way, way more people who was working than people who wasnt. When you are free from the ADDICTION, bein dependent aint really a big issue as far as im concerned. You got the ability to have a stable, productive life becuz the methadone gives you that chance. It takes away all the problems associated with the addiction.

If you got a problem with bein physically dependent on any medication, thats you, but I dont believe that addiction is purely physical. ESPECIALLY if a person REQUIRES pain medications for a serious pain condition, the dependence is a REALITY, a NECESSITY, of their life.

Let me ask this--if a person got a condition that they absolutely, completely, without a doubt truly NEED, NEED, pain medications, and they are a ex heroin addict. And they stopped using heroin and any other unnecessary drugs. They only use their meds, AS PRESCRIBED. They never abuse them, never take extra, never try to catch a high off them, they only take wat they are suppose to, WHEN they are suppose to, and that is it.

Are they clean? I think so. So, I aint sure your opinion, but I think that many ppl would agree with me that he IS clean. He is DEPENDENT on the medication, but his life is free of addict BEHAVIOR, THOUGHTS, ACTIONS, MENTALITY, etc. The ADDICTION part, is gone. And becuz the only difference between addiction and dependence is IN YOUR HEAD, as long as the mental part is gone, its safe to say he aint addicted, he is dependent.

So wats the difference with a Methadone patient? Sure, you can be on MMT and still have a addict brain. You can still be thinkin like an addict. And in that case, you are still an addict. BUT, for the people like me and others I know, who take it as prescribed, and aint got the addict mentality, we are DEPENDENT...NOT addicted. So i dont think its fair to act like I am anything even close to bein the person I was when I was bootin dope all day every day. My mind is compeltely, totally different, everything about me and my life and how i act and live is different. I am dependent on methadone but I aint addicted to it, and the addict inside me is gone. I am without a doubt clean and I didnt trade one addiction for another. I traded my addiction for a physical dependence on the medication that TREATS my addiction and lets me live a happy, productive, normal life. I dont think like I used to . I dont crave for heroin. I dont love heroin no more. I dont wish I could use it. I dont want to use it. I dont even think about it much, to be totally honest, it aint even always there at the back of my mind like it used to .It aint even really an issue for me these days. I dont have to focus on stayin clean. It aint a struggle, it aint even a conscious choice really. I just do it, becuz its how i am. I dont have to work at it, its just naturally how I operate, becuz my mind is free from that addict mentality. I feel so much better than I ever have, and I aint got no fear of becomin that old person again, just like you say you KNOW the program will work for you again, i KNOW that this way of life is workin and will continue to work for ME. if that aint success, I dont know wat is.

DragonRider97 · Jul 18, 2010

lacey k said:
No, it aint called a relapse if you dont go back into addiction. If you make a non-impulsive, well thought out , rational CHOICE to use, that is alot different than "slippin up" or "relapsing." When it aint a involuntary mistake, but instead it is a decision that you make , consciously, I wont call that a relapse, especially since it didnt end up as a negative thing.

I'll go with that, like I said in my post, hey if you can drink normally now, more power too you. I actually have some relatives of Irish birth that have a horrible time with Alcohol until they turn forty years old, then for some reason it seems like they can drink normally after that. I'm certainly not saying we understand everything about addiction, but now the question is, can he keep going in and only drinking one beer, I pray he can, nothing would make me happier, I just know that for most addicts, that isn't the reality!

lacey k said:
I was addicted to heroin for years, and after getting clean and gettin my head right, I was able to use from time to time, every couple months usually, and be satisfied with that. I would get high, enjoy my recreational use, and then forget about it. Since then I stopped usin completely, but i was absolutely able to use, successfully, without no negative effects or desire to CONTINUE the use. That "more more more" addict part of me was not there wanting more. I was able to go back to the kind of use that non-addicts do. Wat Im saying is that Addiction aint permanent for everyone. For some it is, but others of us ARE able to go back to controlled, successful use that never gets out of control or causes us to fall back into old habits. there has been many scientific studies that show that a certain percentage of alcoholics and addicts ARE able to return to occasional, recreational use WITHOUT falling back into addiction, after they get their life in order and get their head straight.They aint a majority, but they are real. And thats one problem i got with the program is that it preaches that once you are addict, you are always gonna be that way, and can never go back to using recreationally. But you can, I am living proof of it and I seen it in action enough times to know that its true.

Youre right, it does sortof preach that, but then again, the big book says, if you doubt you are an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking...

I think we are talking overwhelming percentages though, when it comes to addictive behavior, it has to be 75%+ who go back to using their drug of choice will Relapse...

lacey k said:
Now on to your post before that about methadone. I am sayin this from a completely logic-centered point of view. Not a methadone promoting one, simply a scientific, factual one. You are very wrong to say the shit you did about methadone being a ineffective treatment.

Methadone clinics have ABSOLUTELY NOT been proved to be a horrible failure. Methadone is the most effective, reliable treatment that there is for addiction. it has the longest record of use, and there has been enough studies and monitoring of it for there to be plenty of data about how effective it is. Its just straight up, factually incorrect to say that methadone is a failure of a treatment. For example, here is just one source:

Here is my source: SALON.COM
Editor:
Updated: TodayTopic:
Drugs
Thursday, May 27, 2010 19:17 ET
Study: Heroin better than methadone to kick habit
British trial may lead to new treatment policy. Similar test possible in U.S.
By Associated Press Some heroin addicts who got the drug under medical supervision had a better chance of kicking the habit than those who got methadone, a new study says.

In a British study of 127 people who previously failed to beat their addiction, scientists gave them either injectable heroin or methadone. After six months, those who got heroin were much less likely to continue taking the drug illegally than those who got methadone. The results were published Friday in the British medical journal, Lancet.

lacey k said:
Now for the OPINION part of my post--Methadone aint trading one unhealthy unproductive addiction for another.

First of all, you are DEPENDENT on methadone. you are ADDICTED to heroin. Once you get on methadone, unless u are abusing it of course, you aint gettin high from it, you aint catchin a buzz or a nod. You may be physically dependent on it, but you aint addicted. You aint like "ohhh, yea, my methadone, oh baby, cant wait to get that shit in my veins, ooohhh yea methadone" like you do with dope. it aint like "Oh god i love methadone so much, I wish i could just do methadone all day long" like it is with dope. You dont crave it, you dont need it, you aint desperately in love with it, it aint your whole life like heroin is.

Its simply a medication you take, it stabilizes you, and thats that. Dependence is one thing. addiction is the harmful thing. A person who is on a opiate medication will become dependent on it. that is the physical part. The emotional psychological part is addiction. Once you start feeling like you need it, cravin it, wanting it more and more, and gettin that whole mental obssession with it you have addiction. And ADDICTION is wat causes all those harmful things and causes the shitty lifestyle. A dependent person needs to take their meds becuz if they dont take it they will get sick, but they aint freakin out, they aint goin to crazy lengths to get the drug, they aint willing to risk everything and anything to have it, it aint taking up every moment of their life, their life aint all about the drug like it is during addiction.

You know Lacy we're not as far apart as you think. I had a terrible wreck on a horse, flipped the horse, one point landing, shot disk in my neck, doctors tell me, oh hell, we can manage your pain, just take this Hyco for the next six months, and oops, we forgot to tell you, but the state of Texas is cracking down on doctors who prescribe Hyco long term, so we can't give you anymore...sorry!!! You know where that went, I was swilling poppy tea three times a day, 35 pods a day sometimes, just for relief. Okay, question, was I functioning..yeah, I was still going to work, still paying my taxes, blah blah blah, but was I an addict, yes, because my life was becoming unmanagable. My wife of twenty years was about to leave me because we haddn't had sex in months, but if you looked from the outside, alot of people would have said I was fine and dandy! I was dependant, and addicted, and it had to stop, not for my wife, but for my own reasons, and by using techniques I learned in AA, the cravings have been few and far between. All of us Addicts share one thing in common, we all hate pain. Emotional, physical, mental, spiritual, whatever, now you might be able to shove sixteen penny nail through your nipple, but when it comes to withdrawl pain, we all shiver, we all fear the dark reaches of our own minds...Whatever shall we do when the pain becomes so unbearable? Will we hurt ourselves, will we hurt others, will we go on a rampage for our drug of choice? Just one of the things we have in common I'm quite sure. Nothing but LOVE FOR YOU LACY!!! I'm happy you've managed to beat your addiciton, I wish it were that simple for me...

Khadijah · Jul 18, 2010

Thanks for your post and for readin thru mine. I am always down for a respectable & intelligent discussion about this type of ish and it was interesting to talk about it with somebody whose willing to listen, u know? You are right that we sure all seem to want to avoid pain in any way, and its addict nature but i think its human nature too addicts just take it overboard to the extreme.

BTW, becuz heroin maintenance aint a option for us in the good ol US, obviously they dont include it as a treatment method when studyin the best or most effective options. Its too bad but thats another story completely. I understand where u comin from by quotin the heroin tretment vs methadone treatment thing but unfortunately we are light years away from programs like that bein available here....I guess it would be more accurate to say "out of all the AVAILABLE and recoginzed treatment options methadone got the best success rate" but it aint for everybody I am totally willing to admit that.

I really aint got nothin against most individuals who can say that doin the program has worked for them....any time somebody is havin success against the suffering of addiction that is a good thing...I got my issues with the program itself but I aint begrudging nobody their happiness if that has came to them thru using the steps. u could say that i "hate the game, not the player" you feel me

But like i said...good post, great to talk to somebody more open minded than most of the devoted na/aa members that i have seen. to each their own , u kno how it goes. and good luck with it for sure i hope that it works as good as it did for u in the past this time around. like i said, I might not agree with the whole thing but i would never wish the pain of stayin stuck in an addiction on nobody so I do hope that u find happiness with it, that is the main goal so nevermind how u get there as long as it works out for u in the end.

DragonRider97 · Jul 18, 2010

It's been a pleasure talking to you Lacey. I respect the AA Program, it worked so well for me, you just can't imagine how my life changed fourteen years ago. But hey, my father was an all day every day drinker "Functional" alcoholic, and he was able to kick it without AA, so I obviously don't espouse that AA is the one and only method to beat drugs and alcohol. It's just the method that worked for me, and it's what I know and understand.

Thanks for the chat bro, it's taken my mind off of some leg cramps I've been having today...LOL. Wish me luck!

DragonRider97 · Jul 18, 2010

In response to the original article that started this thread.

The last line should sum up that entire article, "Gary is Sober, and that's what counts."
You know guys, I've been sober for fourteen years now, currently battling another problem, but it's going very well and I'm conifident I will be fine. I got sober in AA and I was a meeting-aolic, but where's the problem with that. It's replacing unhealthy behaviour with healthy behaviour, that's all. Now I even stopped going to meetings for years and years, seven or eight in fact, but I stayed sober. I recently decided for my own benefit to go back to AA about four months ago, that was when I made a decision to beat an opiate addiction caused originally by a slipped disk in my neck. I actually got more relief from accupuncture than opiates ever gave me anyway, so after taking my own council, and attending meetings for the last few months, I decided I wanted to quit opiates...It was my decision, no one in my group put any pressure on me to quit, and they knew I had a dependancy on opiates, even an addiction. No, the decision was mine, though as I listened to the group, I could hear them saying through their stories, how it was time for me to drop the Dragon, and so I did, and I'm damn happy I've done it...

I spent a couple of months tapering back, until my dosage was roughly cut in half. I should have used the Thomas method, but I didn;t want to take the Benzo's so I gutted it out. My opiate withdrawl has been challanging, the dysentary is horrible, but its about the same as detoxing off of alcohol fourteen years ago, and if I just keep doing the next right action i'll be fine. thanks to everyone who has offered support, I mean you Lacey. And you know what, while I support what AA stands for, and how it has worked in my life, I fully understand there are people out therer that can get sober or clean without it, more power to them...

Love you all, and remember, pray for the addict or alcoholic that still suffers...

NewPhone · Jul 18, 2010

Look lacey I appologize if I offended you in any way. In one of my posts I did mention rational recovery, a program like AA but without meetings and spirituality, just free will. I know that it is possible to abstain from alcohol and drugs without AA, even AA knows this only they call it being a "dry drunk" which I disagree with because I think some "real alcoholics" as the book talks about ARE able to stop without a lifetime of AA ahead of them. Like I said, my dad did one year of AA, 90 meetings in 90 days and then a meeting every week or two. He has been sober 27 years. At first that gave me the mentality that I can do it without AA, and sometimes I still get in that thought process I just see how AA is working for me right now and I want to give myself the best possible chance. I'm not one of those people that gets sober and then devotes their life to AA. Right now I am in a halfway house. I did 140 days of residential treatment out of state. I am doing outpatient. Before I went to treatment I was on the streets. I don't ever want that to happen again. Feel me? But I have friends who quit cold turkey and everything without AA. Shit, when I got to detox I refused to take any suboxone or anything I just laid in bed and kicked. Didn't eat or get out of bed for a week. To each his own, but if nothing changes nothing changes. I am glad that you are clean and like u said I don't wish addiction upon anyone. Also, I am out of state still so I have used AA as a means to make friends here since all of my coworkers are drug addicts, one actually brought a bunch of K4s to work and I walked in onhim in the cooler shooting up I told him to get the fuck away from me and not do that shit around me.

DragonRider97 · Jul 18, 2010

NewPhone said:
Look lacey I appologize if I offended you in any way. In one of my posts I did mention rational recovery, a program like AA but without meetings and spirituality, just free will. I know that it is possible to abstain from alcohol and drugs without AA, even AA knows this only they call it being a "dry drunk" which I disagree with because I think some "real alcoholics" as the book talks about ARE able to stop without a lifetime of AA ahead of them. Like I said, my dad did one year of AA, 90 meetings in 90 days and then a meeting every week or two. He has been sober 27 years. At first that gave me the mentality that I can do it without AA, and sometimes I still get in that thought process I just see how AA is working for me right now and I want to give myself the best possible chance. I'm not one of those people that gets sober and then devotes their life to AA. Right now I am in a halfway house. I did 140 days of residential treatment out of state. I am doing outpatient. Before I went to treatment I was on the streets. I don't ever want that to happen again. Feel me? But I have friends who quit cold turkey and everything without AA. Shit, when I got to detox I refused to take any suboxone or anything I just laid in bed and kicked. Didn't eat or get out of bed for a week. To each his own, but if nothing changes nothing changes. I am glad that you are clean and like u said I don't wish addiction upon anyone. Also, I am out of state still so I have used AA as a means to make friends here since all of my coworkers are drug addicts, one actually brought a bunch of K4s to work and I walked in onhim in the cooler shooting up I told him to get the fuck away from me and not do that shit around me.

You're doing good bro, just remember, make the next right decission and everything is gonna work out good for you my man. I did five solid years going to meetings on at least a weekly basis, and I sponsored five other alcoholics, two of which are still sober, and I can hear in your posts the conviction to change your life, after all, that's what really counts. AA worked wonders in my life, and it can yours too, and I believe it will...

Hang in there bro, you're doing all the good!!!

Khadijah · Jul 19, 2010

I think that a funny and maybe a lil ironic thing about all the posts i done in this thread is the fact that this wk i got to start goin back to NA meetings for probation....It got to the point where i just really could not handle it no more, and every time I went i was not able to just sit there without sayin somethin when it was my turn to "share" (in the main meeting i went to, u go around in a circle and everybody share unless they pass) i would just have to say some shit like "You know I really dont understand XXXX"..... becuz certain things would just be shining out at me like "THIS IS RETARDED...THIS DONT MAKE NO SENSE" and i could not just sit there, becuz the topic of the meeting was "HONESTY" and I was like real talk, Ima really really keep it 100--I dont get it. How can you say this and then do this. how can this be the idea, but then you also say this, and so on.

I knew it was upsettin other members and ppl was gettin some type of way about it...So i excused myself from goin to meetings for a while bcuz I just couldnt do it....I handled it for months and months, matter fact over a year...but i just couldnt handle it no more. so i stopped goin so i could leave the believers to their fun and not ruin it for em.

I talked to my PO about it and he was like listen. You obviously dont need to go to na meetings. you obviously understand that its stupid. I think its pretty stupid too, and i regret that the court makes me send people there, becuz its somethin that really dont fit with my ideas about how to deal with offenders who are clearly cleand and stopped using drugs and dont need the help to stay that way, and i know it really sucks, but the judge sent you there. I have to make you keep goin. Just do the meetings, you can sit there and fuck off the whole time if you wnat, i really dont care if you get one thing out of them, but just go, get the signature, and that way i aint gotta get in trouble for not doin my job by sendin you to them.

So, i gotta start goin to them again sometime this wk before i see my PO.....

So as much as I aint for it, i wanted to "share" that with yall and give u a good laugh that NA enemy number one is gonna be stuck in meetings for the next few yrs til probation runs out ...Haha, aint that a bitch.

maybe i will run in to one of yall

paranoid android · Jul 19, 2010

Naw i wouldnt call it a relapse as i had intended to have a beer or 2 that day. I was fucking around downtown in the middle of a hot day (worst fucking time to be down there since the fucking tourists depress the shit out of me) so i figured a beer or 2 wouldnt hurt. So i drank 1 MGD (they didnt have guiness or even fucking heineken

) then left since the alcohol wasent helping my mood any.

These days it seems that there just has to be something to set me off that will provoke a actual relapse. The last one i had was a few months ago when i was on the out's really bad with my g/f and went on my first 4 day bender in 7 fucking years. Not that i was drinking to enjoy it mind you it was more of a self destruct type thing then anything else. It could have just as easily have been a crack pipe that i picked up instead of a bottle mind you except that i didnt have the cash for coke. Plus coke has a way of bringing all your problems right into sickening sharp focus and just making it all seem worse.

Sorry if i came off as harsh man. No offense meant.

Artificial Emotion · Jul 22, 2010

Are you tweaking a lot these days? You seem to have a lot o energy.

lacey k said:
Hell yea, I agree 100% with you.

I dont really agree tho, that it may be the only way for a "hardcore" user to get clean. I was shooting up 25-30 bags of heroin everyday, Im 23 now and had started using when i was 16, you know? Many many people been usin for way longer and had way worse habits. But im just sayin, it was a significant amount of time to be using heroin for. And i got clean without nothin but Methadone and my determination, for once.

Dont get me wrong, i am SO against that whole "if a junkie CAN stop on their own, they WOULD. So , obviously, since they dont, it means they CANT stop, and they NEED NA or Rehab." Thats a load of shit. And i cant stand the ignorant ppl who say "Well, why dont you just stop?" And all that.

i aint one of them willpower people who is all about "just doing it." But I do believe that once you hit the right circumstances in the right combination at the right time, once you get that "click" in your head that you reallllly understand wat you gotta do, its much easier to do it. for me, it was bein 5 minutes away from a jail cell. I was at my probation office after my 2nd dirty piss test in like 3 months, and they were a minute from haulin my ass down into the county. I had 2 felony cases open that i was on concurrent probation for, and i copped out on both of them. If i violated probation, both of my cases woulda got reopened in the court , and i woulda had to go to trial facing at the very very least a 3 year state prison sentence and the possibility of much more years than that, since i had distribution charges, conspiracy charges, and multiple possession charges for heroin , paraphenelia, and marijuana.

Anyways, at that point i realized, damn. Im either gonna be in jail not using, or out here not using. I got to do this . I aint beat for prison. it aint worth it, it really aint. I can just take a break. a few months, let shit settle down, and then get high again if i want to but i just need to stop for a little bit.

and i went to the methadone clinic and upped my dose til i felt normal and here i am, you know? If i had just been able to stop when i "should" have stopped, i woulda been off the shit years ago. But, it toook enough time for me to really realize that time was up, it was seriously, REALLY game over this time. Shit, I got arrested 3 times in 7 months, I was balls to the wall. And when i stopped, it wasnt even "rock bottom" for me. It was just the situation that I finally, TRULY understood that I really did have to quit - for a while, at least .

But this aitn about me, so ima move on i just wanted to explain and make it clear that I aint the type of person who believes or thinks that its just all about a addict being lazy and too weak to quit. But i also dont believe in the disease model that says you are totally irrespnsible for your actions and that the addict aint got no control wat so ever, becuz i totally disagree with that shit too.

Anyways, one thing that always just APPALLED me about NA was how anti-ALL-Drugs they are.

Seriusly, there was this girl in there. She had some kind of horrible stomach problem that she had to get surgery for. They had to cut her open and cut some shit out of her and put some shit in her and god knows wat else, and she was talkin about this at a meeting one night...

She goes "Im scared becuz they want to give me painkillers for the surgery. I told them that I dont want them and that Ill just go thru the surgery without no pain meds or anasthesia, becuz Im a drug addict."

And Im thinking, this broad, is soooo brainwashed by this crap that she honestly believes that if a DOCTOR administers a painkiller to her during SURGERY, that it will cause her to relapse? That she is SO powerless, got No control, to the point that its TOTALLY out of her hands whether or not this happens to her? That its just gonna happen, inevitable?

And her explanation for bein so concerned about all this, was "You cant give drugs to an addict. you just CANT do it . Im an addict, and he CANT give me DRUGS!"

And instead of sayin to this girl "Hey, you know, i think its OK for you to let them give you painkillers while they cut you open in surgery. Its kind of medically necessary, so dont be afraid" They were all like "Yea girl, I know! Youre right! Well you just tell that doctor that you wont take drugs!" and so on 8(

Seriously, they encourage her to risk her health, possibly go into shock from the pain, and suffer extreme agony, and refuse the MEDICALLY NECESSARY TREATMENT, becuz shes a "addict" and you "cant give her drugs"? Its fuckin insane!!

There is people in there who been in horrible accidents, smashed up their backs, got fused vertebrae an shit like that, and they go in there talkin about how their doctor wants them on pain meds but they wont take them becuz they used to be addicted to COCAINE 20 years ago, and they dont want to relapse. So , they walk with a fuckin cane, or a walker, and live in excruciating pain all day every day, and take so much Advil that it is destroying their liver, and they brag about how they are "clean", and THATS a better life than taking PRESCRIBED drugs under MEDICAL SUPERVISION, to treat your very real, legitimate condition that REQUIRES those medications? I mean it aint like they got a broken arm and can tough it out. They would rather SIGNIFICANTLY lower their quality of life, live in pain and suffering all the time, have a , well, SHITTY life, oh but they are CLEAN though, so its all worth it? Becuz, you know, if you are so damn powerless that yuo cant trust yourself to take the pills as prescribed, its better to live in agony, than to let a trusted friend, husband, wife, etc, keep the pills in a safe place for you and only give them to you as prescribed, so that you aint got to worry about trusting yourself?

It aint "using" if a doctor prescribes you a painkiller for a medical problem that you didnt fake, that is legitimate and real and needs help. It aint "using" if you got terrible anxiety, so a psych. dr gives you low dose klonopin to take when you get panic attacks. It aint fuckin "USING" if you take a drug to treat a real medical problem. It aint gonna make you start suckin dick on the street for a bag of dope becuz you get surgery and they give you a morphine shot ONCE.

Its like they support these totally irrational, ridiculous, paranoid delusions of all these horrible , terrible things that TOTALLY WILL HAPPEN if you just let ONE tiny molecule of ANY drug get into your body, for ANY reason at all. Instead of sayin "Hey, you know, we are all reasonable people here---Dont beat yourself up over this--You have multiple sclerosis. Its okay to take the goddamn Vicodin when you really start to hurt" they say "yea! Go you! Fight those addiction demons! dont give up, you got to stay strong, and not let your guard down! That doctor whose BEGGING you to just take the fuckin prescription becuz your body is in so much pain that its making you weaker and weaker---hes just the voice of your addiction talking. thats just your bad side tryina convince you that its OK to use "just once"! but it AINT! You gotta fight the enemy! Keep up the good work and throw away that pill bottle, even though your kids are watching you waste away physically and cry every night becuz they can see how much you are hurting--But remember, RECOVERY IS YOUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, More than ANYTHING else, so just keep up the good fight!"

Its seriously fucking TWISTED to me. Like that shit is on the verge of psychotic the way that they encourage this totally insane thinking and convince people to deny themself from things that they legitimately need.

its one thing if you got a mild injury that you can live with the pain and you choose not to go on pain management becuz you think you might end up needing the pills more than you actually do. Thats a legit concern "Hey, im a ex oxycontin addict, and this pain really aint that bad, its just more of a ache. A lot of people experience this pain, and this aint really severe chronic pain, some doctors might not even think i need any meds at all for it, so even though this one is givin me a script for Percocet, I think I should probably just try to do without it." Thats a responsible choice, even tho I might not do the same thing since I believe everybody got a right to pain relief, and shouldnt deny themself just becuz of past sins, but I mean, NA applies that same thinking of "Just take some tylenol!" to people with SERIOUS, CHRONIC conditions that should be on MASSIVE doses of painkillers.

i cant stand to see people suffer like that, for no good fuckin reason. NA breeds so much fear into people that its like they afraid to make any move except one thats approved by NA. They dont want to choose on their own, they got to do wat the "program" dictates they should do in that situation, you know? its really, seriously just sick.

I cant even comprehend the idea that a reasonable person could possibly believe that a 80 year old grandfather who used to be addicted to heroin in his 30's, should deny himself pain meds for his arthritis and hip replacement becuz "once an addict, always an addict" and he still cant take the risk of "relapsing", becuz the tiniest little taste of any drug will set off his "fuck it" switch and he will instantly turn into a fienning junkie all over again. its just insane, ridiculous, and goddamn cruel to teach people this shit and make them believe it.

Khadijah · Jul 23, 2010

Na, I aint tweaking. I dont do uppers and never have. How long you been on bl for yo? i have always made long posts. this aint somethin new. and it aint related to no kind of drug use. i dont even get high these days. that post really aint contributing much yo, u could ask that in PM cuz u know it aint got shit to do with the topic

tony314 · Jul 25, 2010

Replacing booze with gallons of coffee and cartons of smokes is all they are doing.

felix77 · Jul 29, 2010

After 75 years people still think AA works even though it has the same or lower success rate of all other methods? It is just a crazy support group that mixes government programs with forced religion.

coldbleed · Jul 30, 2010

i call catholic priest hood the gay AA

coldbleed · Jul 30, 2010

I'm going to go and get some free coffee and visit a friend

phyllisphish><> · Aug 5, 2010

whoa! An enlightened and interesting discussion, but one that only serves to highlight the failure on the part of many non-addicts to understand the nature of addiction - shame. All I have to say is this: much as there are many reasons why an addiction to God or AA meetings is not a good thing, for a lot of folks it`s infinitely better than the alternative, whyever the heck it works. You`ve gotta be pretty low to go down the AA road in the first place, so I`m fairly sure it is a step up from rock bottom. Whether that ladder goes anywhere useful, however....

rollingstoned! · Aug 5, 2010

For those who can't move on, lots of loops are good. For those who can, lots of loops are bad.

AA and God are both loops.

Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

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