Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

[EoTorv]

AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics.

AA & NA both in my area have run TV ads. They are not true to this attraction rather than promotion stuff. For many people it is a program of compulsion due to court orders. Fortunately several courts have ruled there is to much religiosity to continue the practice of compelling people to go to AA.

I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is. Why bother?

People attack AA because such a large portion of the public consciousness and resources are oriented towards it. 98% of treatment centers use a 12 step model even though there is no evidence that 12 step programs work. Its very hard to find alternatives and many people are compelled to spend their time and resources engaging this feeble cult. AA members regularly attack approaches like natrexone and acamprosate. Why? because they actually have some evidence that they work I assume.

 

[hobhead]

I am acquainted and am friends with some really fine people that are lifetime 12 steppers and do not evangelize about it's merits.
Years ago I was court remanded to find a meeting and attend a certain number of times . I despised the shit . Some people were wrecks that spent any time found telling ''war stories'' .

War stories is AA speak about how badly damaged the drunks life had gotten - whom they fucked over, which alley the passed out in and then mucked up their britches .

What possible good can come of that sort of sad sack story telling ?

The group leader did his best, every bit of his best to climb upon my back by repeatedly telling me that there was no way that I was happy . Others told me that the DT's were just around the corner . No matter how many times that I stated the relatively small quantity of beer that I consumed - these fucktards never let off that I was lying and was going to go into convulsions or some shit .

Drama never sits well with me and if I am in a situation where it is intended that I be central to the nonsense - I am assholes and elbows gone away .

I have stuck my head in a few of these miserable, nonsensical meetings of my own volition and although they were not as spectacularly fucked up as the one that I mentioned above - they sucked flies off walls.

people sucking sugar candy, sucking really bad coffee in mind boggling amounts, smoking practically a whole pack of stinking cigs - it's just a terribly sorry situation .

Over the years, I have cold turkey stopped a few H habits, put down the booze and stayed sober years . CT detox is entirely preferable to having to interact with fucktards no matter their intentions be good.

It is often propounded that statistically AA/NA presents to be the most effective at it's mission
I am not interested enough to bother to research the matter. However my personality, rationality and lack of ambition to blabber to a bunch of sad sacks makes me a small tic against the outfit's statistical success's.

 

[Nigiic]

In my opinion meetings suck, most of the people who chair, chair about how fucked up they got or old war stories, its like hey we all know how to drink and do drugs. Why don't you just tell us what you've gained from sobriety? Does anyone agree?

 

[NewPhone]

As far as labeling as alcoholics, in AA only YOU can label yourself an alcohlic. Nobody in the program will tell you that you are an alcoholic.

Nigiic-you don't have to be an old timer to chair. I have almost 6 months of sobriety, and I could chair meetings if I wanted to. I've never heard war stories in AA meetings... The point of AA is to KEEP your sobriety. Obviously if you put together a few years and relapsed your method didn't work, right?

The AA meeting I call my homegroup has an overwhelming ammount of young people.

To me it sounds like there is a lot of closed minded thinking going on here.

As far as science - there are many phenomenons other than AA that science cannot explain. "Neither does there appear to be any sort of remedy which will make alcoholics of our kind like other people. Science may one day accomplish this but it hasn't done so yet."

AA is NOTTTTTT a religious program, spirituality and religion are very different. Many folks do not know what their higher power is.

 

[Khadijah]

Yo, I got to thank you newphone.you are doin a great job of proving my point about program members bein totally unable to accept any logic that u present to them, and can only reply with more mindless brainwashed shit straight out of "the book." can you even come up with your own arguements without havin to resort to quoting some lame-ass slogan?

 

[paranoid android]

Newphone i was a raging alcoholic for years and quit about 7 years back with a few relapses here and there mostly related to certain events in my life. But i drank a beer yesterday at a bar and only had that 1 beer even though i had plenty of cash in my pocket.

So what do you mean when you say

As far as science - there are many phenomenons other than AA that science cannot explain. "Neither does there appear to be any sort of remedy which will make alcoholics of our kind like other people. Science may one day accomplish this but it hasn't done so yet."

?

 

[NewPhone]

Your "logic"? I haven't heard anything logical come out of your posts.

YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND! All you did was replace heroin with something else. You think AA controls me? Doesn't the methadone clinic control you? You go every day, over the weekend you get your take home dose. I don't go to meetings every day. I go to one-three a week but they help. I participate in fellowship and in events.

You think you have found a "cure" for your addiction but you haven't. You are still an opiate dependant person. Today, I am not. And trust me, I was shooting just as much heroin as you were.

You know what I think is hilarious? I can say with complete certainty that I could stay sober without going to meetings longer than you could without going to the clinic. So in actuality, who has found a better way to get "clean"? Wait till you come off of the methadone, shooting dope will actually seem like a good idea to you. The obsession and craving will return. Me, I lead a "normal" sober life. I go to work every day and work 40+ hours a week. I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.

Your perception of us living in fear is wrong. In AA they say fear stands for fuck everything and run or face everything and recover. I am not in fear. I know that if I stay sober today, tomorrow I can do the same. You have such a skewed view on the AA life. We don't fear drugs and alcohol we just remember the desperation that led us to those rooms.

 

[paranoid android]

YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND! All you did was replace heroin with something else.

You still have to go to meeting and events every week so your still hooked on the AA program.

I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.

How is this much different then getting take homes from the methadone clinic? Just because you arent dependant on a drug does not mean you arent substituting one thing for another. Your still relying on something to get you through the day just like alot of us.

And who gives a fuck if you work 40+ hours a week? Also define a normal life because normal really is not a definition. Normal for some people is drinking 3 bloody marys for breakfast or shooting heroin first thing in the morning. For others it's being dependant on your sponsor and AA/NA. For other people it's just the ordinary bullshit that goes with everyday life.

So far your logic does not seem to logical atleast to me.

 

[Khadijah]

Your "logic"? I haven't heard anything logical come out of your posts.

YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND! All you did was replace heroin with something else. You think AA controls me? Doesn't the methadone clinic control you? You go every day, over the weekend you get your take home dose. I don't go to meetings every day. I go to one-three a week but they help. I participate in fellowship and in events.

You think you have found a "cure" for your addiction but you haven't. You are still an opiate dependant person. Today, I am not. And trust me, I was shooting just as much heroin as you were.

You know what I think is hilarious? I can say with complete certainty that I could stay sober without going to meetings longer than you could without going to the clinic. So in actuality, who has found a better way to get "clean"? Wait till you come off of the methadone, shooting dope will actually seem like a good idea to you. The obsession and craving will return. Me, I lead a "normal" sober life. I go to work every day and work 40+ hours a week. I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.

Your perception of us living in fear is wrong. In AA they say fear stands for fuck everything and run or face everything and recover. I am not in fear. I know that if I stay sober today, tomorrow I can do the same. You have such a skewed view on the AA life. We don't fear drugs and alcohol we just remember the desperation that led us to those rooms.

i dont go to a clinic number one. Number two, YOU replaced YOUR addiction with meetings. And you absolutely cannot say jack-fuckin-shit with complete certainty, you know why? Becuz i HAVE had situations where I could not get my methadone, and didnt relapse. And i sure as hell didnt go to no meetings either. So I really aint even tryna hear you assuming-ass shit about people on done cant do it without the done. Why, becuz gettin and stayin clean comes from INSIDE....other shit might help or make it easier but in the end, its on YOU whether you go back to that shit or not, and apparently my will to not go back to that life is a lil stronger than you think since I have successfully made it thru situations like that in the past. Real talk, You dont know the first thing about the shit I am or aint able to do, so dont talk like you do.

For the record, I am on methadone for a spine injury, not MMT. I aint got insurance, and methadone is way easier to afford than any other pills that are out there. I aint on maintenance treatment. But of course NA believes that if you are somebody who had addiction problems in the past, that you cant be on painkillers becuz its just being in denial that you are still addicted, just substituting one thing for another,and all that bull. The "i know better" shit. They always know better, they always know the real answer, and of course, if you disagreee, you are just in denial. If that aint labeling somebody an addict, I dont know WTF is.

listen yo, I aint making shit up here. Unlike you, I aint assuming shit, Becuz I been there. i spent time there. I tried to like it i really did. I aint got no problems with a higher power, I believe in god. I aint got no issues with admittin there is a problem, IF there is one really there. I tried to look at the positive, you know just people tryina help other people. But the black and white , yes or no mentality, aint realistic. So just for the record here, I HAVE BEEN A NA MEMBER, participated in the meetings, done all that shit. been to tons of different meetings in different places. They are all the goddamn same, full of people repeatin the same old bullshit and tellin you that you are just lyin to yourself if you dont fall for their idea of you bein an addict.

So I aint misunderstanding or perceiving shit about the program as wrong becuz every example of living in fear is one that I have seen myself at a meeting. the girl who was terriffied, stone cold in brokedown fear, about the fact that she was getting surgery, and the fact that they would be givin her painkillers during the surgery. Talkin about how it will make her relapse. And the NA members tellin her yea, thats right, its a great idea to go thru surgery without anasthesia, becuz a drug that you dont even take by CHOOSING to take it, but is given to you medically becuz of a operation, will TOTALLY cause you to relapse!thats living in fear.

The woman who was in a terrible car accident and can barely walk, talkin about "I dont need those fuckin pills!" Who is obviosuly in excruciating pain, who cannot allow herself to be treated for a problem that is ruining her quality of life, becuz she believes that even if somebody else rations her pills out to her, that it will force her to become a junkie again. Thats living in fear.

changing your whole fucking structure of your life to avoid certain things that just might maybe remind you of using...Rejecting legitimate medical treatment that improves the quality of your life...becoming so attached to meetings that you feel you "need" them to stay clean....If that aint living in fear I dont know wat the fuck is. I seen this shit day in day out at meetings. People who change their entire structure of their life to avoid something that might possibly remind them in some way of drugs. that is living in fear. Bein unable to live in the world without havin to avoid things, people, etc, that is still lettin the drug control your life. Your life is still all about drugs. Its just about not doing the drugs.

Believing that you WILL go back , that you WILL relapse if you just have that "one", that is living in fear.

I wouldnt trade the success that i have had with leavin my addiction behind for all the world. I am happier than I ever been in my whole life. That love for dope, that obsession, is long gone. i have been without methadone and managed without relapsing into addiction. I have even used, "just once" and not went back into more and more. Just had one. one day, got high, realized it really wasnt all that i had thought it was, and put it down and was done with it. you CAN go from addict to "bein able to use like a gentleman" as u put it. But you sure as hell cant do it if you in NA and believe you cant. But just becuz thats how it works for you aint how it works for everybody else. And that smug-ass attitude that so many of yall got, is the thing that makes so many of us hate it like we do.

 

[NewPhone]

I'm hooked on the AA program? I've never gone through AA withdrawal. I go because I want to not because I physically need to. If you don't go to the clinic you will be shooting dope or doing something else to get your withdrawal off.


My dad got clean through AA. He stopped going to meetings after a year. He has been sober for 27 years. I don't plan on going my whole life, I know I don't have to and don't need to. It does help way more than anything else in early sobriety. Knock it all you want, I know what's good. Real talk

 

[DragonRider97]

Enjoyed this post, but you are wrong...there's a whole chapter in the AA big book HOW IT WORKS!

Fourteen years sober, although I have some other problems now, I have managed to stay away from my drug of choice which was alcohol.

I'm presently on day four of Poppy Tea Withdrawl, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel I hope. I started on Poppy tea mainly out of ignorance, I had a pinched nerve in my neck and I managed to get addicted to Hydrocodone, HA, nothing compared to the Dragon baby! But the doctors soon decided I was taking too many Hydrocodone, and I was on the doctor shopping list, so they stopped prescribing...The pain was real, the addiction was now real as well, so I searched for an alternative, and OH MY GOD, a legal alternative that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg. Poppy pods! Within a few months I was doing 35 pods a day, I had become a zombie, no libido, I would go without sexin' the little misses for months, she thought I hated her and began to gain weight, as did I, fifty pounds!

She kept asking what that stuff was that I was using, I told her it was Vallairian, but she's not a tard, she looked it up after awhile and figured out the real deal. That's when she laid it down, quit or I leave...of course I didn't quit then, but what I did was start going to AA meetings again, and I began to remember that it wasn't that bad being sober, and eventually I decided to kick the dragon for my own reasons.

So here I am, day four, still can't eat, still having massive dysentary, still having the shivers. I don't recommend my method, but I did cut back from 35 pods to roughly 20 pods a day before quiting, I also managed to get a little hyco, in the form of Tussinex, which took the edge off of the withdrawls for about a day, (It did allow me a little sleep on the first night at least) after I swigged half the bottle...

I didn't use any benzo's, just Skelaxin and Methocarbamol for muscle relief. The worst part for me is the lack of sleep. I hate not sleeping, in fact that was one of the things I loved about Poppy tea, I could really get a nod on and have some cool ass dreams, but they were just dreams and my life and health were falling apart while I grinned stupidly.

I've managed to keep the cravings under control just by asking God to remove them...

That's How it Works!

 

[NewPhone]

And FYI I have been there, I was the anti-christ of 12 step meetings. You know why? I thought because I was a junky I needed NA. In my experience NA is some bunk ass shit. I am much happier with AA. I couldn't find anybody with any clean time in NA, they were fucking wack.

I have friends in AA that are on pain meds, shit this one guy has a pain pump in his back and is on dilaudid 24/7 so don't give me that bullshit about you can't do that in the program. That's NA not AA. NA, CA, DA, I've tried them all they all sucked. It wasn't till by chance I went to a good AA meeting that I liked the program

 

[paranoid android]

I've managed to keep the cravings under control just by asking God to remove them...

That's How it Works!

So your hooked on god instead of alcohol or opiates? It's just another replacement and you have to do shit yourself if you sit around waiting for god to help you your going to be a old man still waiting.

As for the god stuff well pass me the bacardi and the dilaudid anyday over that

 

[Khadijah]

If you don't go to the clinic you will be shooting dope or doing something else to get your withdrawal off.

Once again...I dont go to a clinic.

Second like i said in my last post...I HAVE had to be sick before when i didnt have my done script and the Dr. messed up and didnt refill it on the right date. And i lived thru it, and waited a few days til they worked it out and got my script, and didnt go back to using jack shit. I dealt with the WD and waited til i could fill my script and that was it. There was no dope or pills or nothing else in that place.

Maybe on methadone YOU would not be able to survive without fallin back into addiction if you missed a dose or w/ever, but that aint how it been for me so dont be so sure when you say that if i didnt go to the clinic I'd still be shooting dope or w/ever. speak for yourself.

 

[Khadijah]

dragynfyr, come back when you got more than 4 days off pod tea and tell us more about how successful that was for you. I do hope that u able to get past ur problems. I would never wish the pain & suffering of continuing a addiction on nobody, even if I dont agree with their wack job ideas. Becuz we all feel pain and addiction makes us all hurt even if we feel different ways about it.

So i do hope that its able to work for you, but honestly its too early to tell. You still detoxin. you aint got no experience of actually living the life w/out addiction and really knowing wat it means to be clean yet. You aint outta the woods yo. Its too soon to talk about "I know it works, becuz I stopped taking pod tea and so now I just drinkin alcohol all day and pray for god to take away my cravings and i got 4 days so far!"

Its great that u got 4 days yo, and when u addicted, shiit. 4 days seems like a really fuckin long time, I know that.

But you really dont even know if it "works" yet at all, you dont know that til you get a lil farther into shit. good luck, but for real, dont be so quick to assume its that easy is all Im sayin.

 

[DragonRider97]

Have you ever actually tried AA or NA? You sure knock it, but you don't seem to have very much experience with it...

Your deal about Methadone addiction and it being a denial when the pain is real, hey I can appreciate that, I got bucked off of a horse and pinched a nerve in my neck (Collapsed disk)but these doctors will really screw you up, they put me on Hyco, then they decided I was taking too many, oh we can't have that! So they cut me off! Leaving me with just a couple of days supply and a real delima, so I began to research, and I found Poppy Tea, now that's the dragon baby!That shit will jack you up. My research ended on an alternative, and I couldn't take the pain so it seemed like a good deal. I was wrong! Poppy teais the devil, the dragon and Lucifer rolled into one. After three years without detoxing I had gained fifty pounds, had no libido, blood pressure through the roof,and a wife that was seriously considering leaving me after twenty years of marriage.

So I went back to where I had success before, AA, and I found a reason to stop this instanity, so after some preparation I began to cut back, from 35 to 40 pods a day back to twenty, might not seem lilke much, but believe me, I was feelilng it. I'm on day four of dextox and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...hopfully not a train.

Still having the shakes, gooseflesh, and unbelievable dysentary!!!, but I'm getting it under control, and without benzo;s

I've been able to control my cravings by simply asking God to remove them, THATS HOW IT WORKS!!!

 

[DragonRider97]

So your hooked on god instead of alcohol or opiates? It's just another replacement and you have to do shit yourself if you sit around waiting for god to help you your going to be a old man still waiting.

As for the god stuff well pass me the bacardi and the dilaudid anyday over that

That's where you are wrong...It's not a change of addictions, I just ask God to help me by removing the cravings, and I don't know why, but it works every single time!!! I haven't been well enough to get back to meetings, but I'm getting there. I'm not craving pods, hyco, or anything else. And you know what, the pain in my neck, isnt even bothering me anymore...

AA is a program of replacement to be sure, you replace non functional behavior with functional behavior, addiction with meetings and steps, but they lead to a better life, a life of freedom from alcohol and drugs, I'm fourteen years sober (Alcohol was always my drug of choice) and if you can drink on Bacardi or take one Dauladid, good for you...I can't, and what's more, I know I can't so I try to replace that behavior with something productive...

Don't knock it till you've tried it...

That's HOW IT WORKS!!!

 

[DragonRider97]

And FYI I have been there, I was the anti-christ of 12 step meetings. You know why? I thought because I was a junky I needed NA. In my experience NA is some bunk ass shit. I am much happier with AA. I couldn't find anybody with any clean time in NA, they were fucking wack.

I have friends in AA that are on pain meds, shit this one guy has a pain pump in his back and is on dilaudid 24/7 so don't give me that bullshit about you can't do that in the program. That's NA not AA. NA, CA, DA, I've tried them all they all sucked. It wasn't till by chance I went to a good AA meeting that I liked the program

Good post, good luck and God bless!!!

 

[Khadijah]

Have you ever actually tried AA or NA? You sure knock it, but you don't seem to have very much experience with it...

Your deal about Methadone addiction and it being a denial when the pain is real, hey I can appreciate that, I got bucked off of a horse and pinched a nerve in my neck (Collapsed disk)but these doctors will really screw you up, they put me on Hyco, then they decided I was taking too many, oh we can't have that! So they cut me off! Leaving me with just a couple of days supply and a real delima, so I began to research, and I found Poppy Tea, now that's the dragon baby!That shit will jack you up. My research ended on an alternative, and I couldn't take the pain so it seemed like a good deal. I was wrong! Poppy teais the devil, the dragon and Lucifer rolled into one. After three years without detoxing I had gained fifty pounds, had no libido, blood pressure through the roof,and a wife that was seriously considering leaving me after twenty years of marriage.

So I went back to where I had success before, AA, and I found a reason to stop this instanity, so after some preparation I began to cut back, from 35 to 40 pods a day back to twenty, might not seem lilke much, but believe me, I was feelilng it. I'm on day four of dextox and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...hopfully not a train.

Still having the shakes, gooseflesh, and unbelievable dysentary!!!, but I'm getting it under control, and without benzo;s

I've been able to control my cravings by simply asking God to remove them, THATS HOW IT WORKS!!!

Uh, yea. I have spent over a year and a half goin to (usually) weekly NA meetings. I definately got my share of experience with it. I have went to many different ones too not just one. Different areas of jersey, meetings with older people, younger people, big ones small ones and so on. I have put in my time with it for sure.

I have more experience with it than i would like to, and at first i really tried to give it a chance. Take the good and leave the bad. but the more and more time i spent there the more i realized there really aint a whole lot of good. The attitudes of people there are so annoying that i can barely make it thru a meeting these days. I am so sick of hearin the same old stupid shit over and over. The same sad-sack stories, repeated by the same people week after week.

I aint gonna get really into it with you becuz you obviously another one of the totally die-hard members who believes that repeating the same thing over and over will make it true. I can see that you completely set in your ways and are mostly intersted in offering quotes from the program literature to back up your ideas, so you aint gonna change your mind and I aint tryin to do that. But Ima just say thats good that its "how it works" for you, but that really aint "how it works" for at the VERY least 95% of the people in the program, becuz after one year, thats how many people have left and stopped coming.

Out of that 5% of people who still keep attending meetings, there is only about 1% who stayed clean the entire time and didnt relapse at any point.

So you have a 99% failure rate.

If you are in the 1% great for you but in the real world with the VAST majority of people, prayin away your cravings dont work. There is many studies that show the success rate of AA/NA is actually horrible, and that the claims the program makes are from "cherry-picking" their statistics (meaning, they only count people who succeed as "members", becuz a true member follows the program. If you follow the program, it will work. If it dont work, it means that you didnt follow it. Therefore, only the people who it works for, are counted as "members", which is how they can claim such ridiculously high success rates like they do. which are totally unscientific and straight up wrong. But no die hard 12stepper will recognize or admit that, so ima move on)

And wat do you do when it stops working? Where do u go from there? just curious.

Before you go sayin "O ye of little faith" -- I absolutely believe in god and I pray all the time. I aint a anti spiritual person. aint got the tiniest problem with a higher power. Im cool with all that. I fully believe in god and that the reason i am still here after all my brushes with death and prison is becuz I had the help of that higher power.

But know wat, that higher power aint the one who got me clean, and aint the one who keeps me clean. its ME, and the power inside myself to want to succeed. You cant put your failure, or your success, off on nobody but yourself.

I always thought it was really funny how the whole 12 steps are so centered around "taking responsibility" for shit, even for shit that really AINT your fault, but the program encourage u to see your fault in EVERYTHING and "be responsible" for it. BUt when it comes to your own recovery you suppose to just lay there helplessly and wait for somebody to do it for you. Wheres the responsiblity then?

That aint my style, and to take a quote i have heard ppl say before "Free will, I never leave home without it."

If you happy to leave the choice and responsiblity of everything related to your success completely up to somebody else good luck and i hope it works but i sure as hell could never feel no type of satisfaction or fulfillment from livin like that. I am happy that I am clean, and I thank god for givin me the STRENTH, DETERMINATION, WILL, DRIVE, DISCIPLINE, and FAITH to keep going and stay on the right path....But it was all ME that did the work.

GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.

"AND THATS HOW IT WORKS!"

 

[DragonRider97]

But you really dont even know if it "works" yet at all, you dont know that til you get a lil farther into shit. good luck, but for real, dont be so quick to assume its that easy is all Im sayin.

You didn't see my previous posts I suppose, I'm fourteen years sober (Alcohol was my drug of choice) and I maintain that even though I fell into opiate addiction, because to me they are two seperate affairs. But I have had success with the program of AA (Fourteen years of sobrity is nothing to sneeze at) and I have no doubt it will serve me in my opiate addiction the same way. I had quite going to meetings for about five years, that's when my wreck on the horse happened and some other things in my life, but I managed to stay sober even while riding the dragon. In the last two months I've started going back to meetings and the support has been amazing, they didn't care that I was an opiate addict, still using, they were just glad I was there, and I was glad to be there.

Lacy, whatever works in your life, more power to you, just don't go running down what has worked for millions and millions of alcoholics and drug addicts around the world.