safety "rule" for 25x-NBOME, 2C-x, and DOx

[neuron charge]

1st time post here (edited multiple times for clarity)

[25x-nbome, 2C-x, DOx] CORRELATIONS

HALOGEN SIZE vs OBSERVED PHARMACOLOGICAL EFFECTS (← correlation variables)

-DOx duration F < Cl < Br < I
-DOx "receptor affinity" F < Cl < Br < I
-2C-x dose size F > Cl > Br > I
-25x-NBOME deaths Cl < I

HALOGEN SIZE REFERENCE: F < Cl < Br < I

SPECULATIONS/DISCUSSION:
neurotransmitters do not contain a halogen. the halogen is the "alien" component of 25x-NBOME, 2C-x, and DOx (as well as being the "x" symbol in the names). also notice, halogens are MUCH LARGER atoms than the atoms that typically make up neurotransmitters (i.e. carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen) hence their "alien" label

C = 12, N= 14, O = 16
F = 19 Cl = 35, Br = 80, I = 127 (← the halogens)(numbers = "atomic mass"/physical SIZE)

... in respect to SIZE (and disregarding Flourine for reasons stated in later posts on this thread) Cl is closest to carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen, while I is furthest, and Br somewhere in between. in respect to SIZE we go further past the size/weight of our own endogenous neurotransmitters as we go from F to Cl to Br to I. the degree of potentially negative PHYSICAL side effects (...not psychological side effects)(... and not accounting for DOSAGE, which is MORE important in regards to safety) becomes worse as we go from F to Cl to Br to I

these compounds are POTENT, they are NOT a joke
when it comes to NBOMES, recognize the difference between "said dosage" and "actual dosage", your life could depend on it...

REFERENCE:
"Fluorine in psychedelic phenethylamines" - 2012
"Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome" - 2010
"PIHKAL" - 1991

 

[sekio]

why then is 2c-d-nbome (4-methyl) also a potent and toxic hallucinogen?

 

[infantannihilator]

Im pretty certain Ive read around here that the whole iodine is bad because its really heavy theory has been invalidated.

Anyway Im going to have to disagree with the concept of dose sizes, 2c-b and 2c-i have very similar dose ranges, and in fact the opposite is true when you consider the nbomes: 2c-c-nbome is known to be active at lower doses than 2c-i-nbome (300ug vs 500ug~)

I cant really speak on the concept of duration as that varies by a large degree depending on the dose even with similar compounds, but between 2c-b,c,i theyre all fairly the same 4-8hours (from research, only experience with i at a low dose personally), and I am sure there are examples that would prove the opposite

As far as deaths go I think there are a number of other factors that come into play long before you can start attributing to the specific halogen used, but this is all speculation on my part.

In any case welcome to the board and don't take my disagreement with any hostility

why then is 2c-d-nbome (4-methyl) also a potent and toxic hallucinogen?

Define toxic? Is it more toxic than the others? I ask because Ive not really read anything regarding specific toxicities.. I am under the impression that everything is toxic to a degree

 

[nuke]

Toxicity is likely just a product of full 5HT2A and 5HT2C agonism versus partial agonism. For instance, 2c-c, 2c-b, and 2c-i are well known to be partial agonists and are associated with little to no deaths, while the corresponding amphetamine and NBOMe homologues are full agonists and are associated with a number of deaths. 4-OH-DMT, mescaline, and LSD are all also 5HT2A and 5HT2C partial agonists and share similar safety profiles to the 2c-X drugs.

Oddly both DOC and DOB have been implicated in deaths, while DOI has not, but I suspect it is just a matter of time.

 

[neuron charge]

@sekio - i realize there are a number of other varieties which don't include halogens. i got no input on these guys sorry...

@infantannihilator i'm not saying "iodine is bad because its really heavy". for example an appropriate dose with a "iodine compound" would be MUCH safer than an overdose of a "chlorine compound". again regarding duration, DOSAGE can matter more than which halogen it is.

there is a dose relation between the 2c-x group, and i think its too early to have an established nbome dose range (considering the production of these ultra-potent compounds coming from the black market) (although i could be completely wrong and the nbomes might go against this "rule")

@nuke nice points regarding agonism vs partial agonism. i wasn't cross comparing 2c-x vs nbome tho. i don't agree that the tryptamines which closest resemble 4-OH-DMT share a safety profile which 2c-x. 2c-x are a step up the ladder when it comes to potentially serious side effects...

 

[sekio]

i think its too early to have an established nbome dose range

The compounds were first publically announced in 2003 and recognized shortly thereafter as hallucinogens... I'm sure there's now been at least 3-5 years of human usage of these - at least the "popular" 25D, 25C, 25I (and to a lesser extent 25E and 25B). Surely that's enough for characterisation of dose levels?

Also, check out Ralf Heim's original thesis work as well as a few derivative studies which investigated the binding potency of these compounds at 5ht2a, AFAICT the affinity lines up very well with percieved potency per mole. (dose corrected for relative molecular weight).

Others have pointed out that the more lipophilic 25I takes longer to onset and lasts longer than 25C likely due to increased lipophilicity as the halogen increases.

 

[Anon0631]

i think its too early to have an established nbome dose range (considering the production of these ultra-potent compounds coming from the black market) (although i could be completely wrong and the nbomes might go against this "rule")

No it isn't. 25c is almost twice as potent as 25i with 25b falling roughly in the middle.

 

[neuron charge]

@Anon0631 thanks for the nbome info. the only point i was making earlier is the CORRELATION between nbome deaths and halogen size. i am not saying halogen size CAUSES deaths, rather halogen size is an important variable when it comes to the effects of psychedelic phenethylamines... (i.e. the safety profile is a bit better when dosing 2C-C vs 2C-I or when dosing 25c vs 25i...)

@nuke to elaborate on the earlier comment of 2c-x vs 4-OH-DMT (or close 4-OH-DMT analogs) safety

a "quadruple dose" of 2c-x could lead to a serious health crisis
while with a "quadruple dose" of 4-OH-DMT (or close 4-OH-DMT analogs) the risk of serious health crisis would be MUCH lower...

 

[Deinonychus]

There's a serious problem with this conjecture though. Chlorine is THREE TIMES as heavy as carbon! That is not an insignificant difference! And plus, you cannot really compare carbon and chlorine, or any halogen for that matter, in the context of molecular structure. They have totally different steric bulk (size), they have different electronegativities in the case of the lighter halogens, carbon generally forms four bonds, where halogens form one, on and on.

And what about fluorine? How does fluorine work itself into this theoretical framework?

 

[titan7]

I've had a lot of experiences with 25i,c, and b. C and B are less potent than I, 700-800ug 25c with no tolerance is equivalent intensity wise (they're all unique in their effects) to a 500ug 25i trip with no tolerance 1.2mg 25b was about the same intensity as 500 ug 25i. 500ug 25i is not very intense imo, unless your vaporizing it.

I've dosed a combined total of nearly 20mg over the course of a night (not all at once started with 2mg doses of 25g before combining in 5-6 mg of 25i and c in 1mg increments). Nbome's are deadly but not nearly as deadly as everyone claims, if you do an allergy test before jumping into deeper waters then you won't have much to worry about

 

[infantannihilator]

Interesting.. what you say is in contrast to the majority of what I have read here.

And I agree with you that they're not as deadly as some people make them out to be, but the fact that they are deadly at all with what can be 'simple' mistakes, is cause for concern and requires an extra level of somewhat unprecedented care to be necessary

 

[neuron charge]

@titan7 i did not draw a correlation between nbome dosages and halogen sizes...

@deinonychus these are not CONJECTURES rather CORRELATIONS. the mass of atoms were listed in the original post, so i'm confused why your bringing them up again... flourine doesn't really fit in, as it is not a common halogen used for 25x, 2C-x, and DOX (as far as i've read)

@sekio were you saying earlier there is a CORRELATION between nbome binding affinities and halogen size?

~thanks for the responses all

 

[bloodshed344]

Interesting.. what you say is in contrast to the majority of what I have read here.

And I agree with you that they're not as deadly as some people make them out to be, but the fact that they are deadly at all with what can be 'simple' mistakes, is cause for concern and requires an extra level of somewhat unprecedented care to be necessary

I've dosed nbomes similarly, but I do not talk about it or even acknowledge it because I know people will try to imitate. Nbomes can be very safe in excessively high doses, that is true, but the individual reaction must be measured at lower doses. The problem? After the tolerance builds the trip isn't the same and you would have gotten a more magical experience by dosing higher the first time. This is the thought in the minds of many... this is a lethal thought.

 

[Anon0631]

I've had a lot of experiences with 25i,c, and b. C and B are less potent than I, 700-800ug 25c with no tolerance is equivalent intensity wise (they're all unique in their effects) to a 500ug 25i trip with no tolerance 1.2mg 25b was about the same intensity as 500 ug 25i. 500ug 25i is not very intense imo, unless your vaporizing it.

In that case you are receiving cut/mislabelled product. I've done pretty extensive titrations with all three halogenated NBOMes in powder form. Analysis data showed each to be in the high 90's in terms of percentage purity.

I've dosed a combined total of nearly 20mg over the course of a night (not all at once started with 2mg doses of 25g before combining in 5-6 mg of 25i and c in 1mg increments). Nbome's are deadly but not nearly as deadly as everyone claims, if you do an allergy test before jumping into deeper waters then you won't have much to worry about

This is horribly irresponsible advice. You were obviously fighting an astronomical case of tolerance. If you had taken that quantity in a single dose, it's quite possible that you wouldn't be here to post bad HR advice.

 

[bloodshed344]

This is horribly irresponsible advice. You were obviously fighting an astronomical case of tolerance. If you had taken that quantity in a single dose, it's quite possible that you wouldn't be here to post bad HR advice.

Exactly, why can't people see this? So obvious...

 

[infantannihilator]

I was honestly tripping and totally missed over that part in my reply. Yikes

 

[titan7]

@ neuron
Someone said 25c was twice as potent as 25i I've never found that to be the case. The impurities in nbome's can change dosages drastically 99.9% of 500ug 25i is gonna be overwhelming for someone who had much less pure products. (yes im aware almost all vendors say 99% purity on everything they say just using it as an example)

@ anon
Hadn't consumed any psychedelics for a week before i had mxe exactly 1 week beore I dosed 2mg 25g which made my tolerance skyrocket instantly (how all paychedelics are) by the end of the night i had consumed a total of 20mg of varrying nbome's. 2mg 25g is almost nothing barely beyond threshold not safe for someone who hasn't done an allergy test but I did. All my nbome's have been great quality and ive even bought pre laid tabs and still found 25c and 25b to require larger doses. Maybe i need larger doses of them because their effects are a lot more subtle than 25i they might actually only need 300ug for threshold effects. Also everyone i have given nbome's to agrees with 25i being the most intense when they're all laid as 500ug blotters

 

[kidklmx]

@deinonychus these are not CONJECTURES rather CORRELATIONS. the mass of atoms were listed in the original post, so i'm confused why your bringing them up again... flourine doesn't really fit in, as it is not a common halogen used for 25x, 2C-x, and DOX (as far as i've read)

DOEF/2C-EF, DOTFM/2C-TFM, 2C-T-21? 2C-F and DOF are inactive though

 

[titan7]

DOEF/2C-EF, DOTFM/2C-TFM, 2C-T-21? 2C-F and DOF are inactive though

2c-ef and 2c-tfm are active? I've read trip reports of both compounds, pretty sure the reports were on bluelight. Pihkal claims DOEF is active as well
What are you trying to say? 2c-f is active but in the hundreds of mg range

 

[Anon0631]

Someone said 25c was twice as potent as 25i I've never found that to be the case. The impurities in nbome's can change dosages drastically 99.9% of 500ug 25i is gonna be overwhelming for someone who had much less pure products. (yes im aware almost all vendors say 99% purity on everything they say just using it as an example)

Most people would consider 350μg of 25c to be approximately equipotent to 600μg 25i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe#Dosage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-C-NBOMe#Dosage

By the way Titan. I suggest that you do some reading on tolerance. With psychedelic phenthylamines, repeatedly dosing over the course of a session IS NOT the same as taking one dose up front. Suggesting it is us dangerous and counter to BL's stated HR mission.