Rolling without the blues

[new2drugs]

So I hear a 3 week wait is probably best before doing more Mandy?

 

[BlueBull]

So I hear a 3 week wait is probably best before doing more Mandy?

At least, yes. I would wait a bit longer personally but that's because I've waited much shorter for too many times and reaped the sour consequences of it generally it's said to wait at least 4 weeks but it differs enormously between people. Some can seemingly roll every weekend for years and be fine, some wait much longer between rolls and experience issues. I wouldn't try to find your limit though, the side effects are no fun and can be long-lasting if you're one of the rare people sensitive to them

 

[new2drugs]

At least, yes. I would wait a bit longer personally but that's because I've waited much shorter for too many times and reaped the sour consequences of it generally it's said to wait at least 4 weeks but it differs enormously between people. Some can seemingly roll every weekend for years and be fine, some wait much longer between rolls and experience issues. I wouldn't try to find your limit though, the side effects are no fun and can be long-lasting if you're one of the rare people sensitive to them

If I had a blackout 5 weeks ago I must have drained all my serotonin. Didn't feel under the weather for long ,was fine in 2 days.

Probably ok to do it again

 

[BlueBull]

If I had a blackout 5 weeks ago I must have drained all my serotonin. Didn't feel under the weather for long ,was fine in 2 days.

Probably ok to do it again

Probably, yes. May I ask how long you've been rolling for? Oftentimes in the beginning it seems that no matter how often you roll, you don't seem to experience any side effects. It was like that for me as well in the first 2-3 years. I've even rolled 5 days in a row one time. However, once side effects start to crop up, it seems like they start happening with an increasing frequency. That's why I said that you shouldn't try to find your limit, as the fact that they don't seem to experience side effects no matter what they do makes some people feel like they're invincible and that they're one of those people immune to the side effects. That attitude very often catches up with them at some point. Not saying this is what you're doing, just warning you what I've seen happen before many, many times and also experienced myself. That one time that I rolled 5 days in a row was the turning point for me, after that all of the sudden I was much more sensitive to the side effects if I overdid it again. If you stick to the minimum waiting period no matter what, you'll enjoy this drug for years to come and most likely won't experience the dark side that it can have if it's misused or abused

 

[new2drugs]

Probably, yes. May I ask how long you've been rolling for? Oftentimes in the beginning it seems that no matter how often you roll, you don't seem to experience any side effects. It was like that for me as well in the first 2-3 years. I've even rolled 5 days in a row one time. However, once side effects start to crop up, it seems like they start happening with an increasing frequency. That's why I said that you shouldn't try to find your limit, as the fact that they don't seem to experience side effects no matter what they do makes some people feel like they're invincible and that they're one of those people immune to the side effects. That attitude very often catches up with them at some point. Not saying this is what you're doing, just warning you what I've seen happen before many, many times and also experienced myself. That one time that I rolled 5 days in a row was the turning point for me, after that all of the sudden I was much more sensitive to the side effects if I overdid it again. If you stick to the minimum waiting period no matter what, you'll enjoy this drug for years to come and most likely won't experience the dark side that it can have if it's misused or abused

Only ever done it 3 times. 1st time was the best in September. 2nd time mild, 3rd as described. All 3 with drink but 1st time only took drink after a while.

Will do things differently this time around

 

[BlueBull]

Only ever done it 3 times. 1st time was the best in September. 2nd time mild, 3rd as described. All 3 with drink but 1st time only took drink after a while.

Will do things differently this time around

Alcohol plus MDMA is very known to cause blackouts, so if by "drink" you mean alcohol, then that is very likely what caused it. That combination is famous for that. And they are a very weird kind of blackout, because sometimes you are still able to talk and walk around and do stuff, without realizing you're doing all that. I find that MDMA is not the kind of drug you should combine with alcohol because except for the blackouts, it can also dull the experience and change it. One or two drinks to calm the nerves is fine, that isn't harmful and I do that sometimes too, but once you really start to feel the alcohol, the chance for a blackout increases dramatically

One time when I had such a blackout, I was apparently found standing in the corner of the room, talking to a fire extinguisher about spaghetti (don't ask me why) and when people tried to talk to me to see if I was okay, I was apparently convinced I was on a bus to Spain for a holiday with friends. I have never been to Spain. I remember nothing, except for the start of the night and the end when I regained consciousness. The blackouts are very weird and not like the blackouts you get from alcohol, where you can't move or talk anymore and just sit slumped over on the floor or on a chair. I think judging from the effects, those alcohol plus MDMA blackouts have the potential of making you do crazy, dangerous or regrettable things if you don't have a friend to look out for you, though I have luckily never had it happen that I did such crazy or regrettable things

If by "drink" you didn't mean alcohol, then it's not relevant to you, just take this as a warning not to combine it with (too much) alcohol then

 

[new2drugs]

Alcohol plus MDMA is very known to cause blackouts, so if by "drink" you mean alcohol, then that is very likely what caused it. That combination is famous for that. And they are a very weird kind of blackout, because sometimes you are still able to talk and walk around and do stuff, without realizing you're doing all that. I find that MDMA is not the kind of drug you should combine with alcohol because except for the blackouts, it can also dull the experience and change it. One or two drinks to calm the nerves is fine, that isn't harmful and I do that sometimes too, but once you really start to feel the alcohol, the chance for a blackout increases dramatically

One time when I had such a blackout, I was apparently found standing in the corner of the room, talking to a fire extinguisher about spaghetti (don't ask me why) and when people tried to talk to me to see if I was okay, I was apparently convinced I was on a bus to Spain for a holiday with friends. I have never been to Spain. I remember nothing, except for the start of the night and the end when I regained consciousness. The blackouts are very weird and not like the blackouts you get from alcohol, where you can't move or talk anymore and just sit slumped over on the floor or on a chair. I think judging from the effects, those alcohol plus MDMA blackouts have the potential of making you do crazy, dangerous or regrettable things if you don't have a friend to look out for you, though I have luckily never had it happen that I did such crazy or regrettable things

If by "drink" you didn't mean alcohol, then it's not relevant to you, just take this as a warning not to combine it with (too much) alcohol then

 

[new2drugs]

Alcohol plus MDMA is very known to cause blackouts, so if by "drink" you mean alcohol, then that is very likely what caused it. That combination is famous for that. And they are a very weird kind of blackout, because sometimes you are still able to talk and walk around and do stuff, without realizing you're doing all that. I find that MDMA is not the kind of drug you should combine with alcohol because except for the blackouts, it can also dull the experience and change it. One or two drinks to calm the nerves is fine, that isn't harmful and I do that sometimes too, but once you really start to feel the alcohol, the chance for a blackout increases dramatically

One time when I had such a blackout, I was apparently found standing in the corner of the room, talking to a fire extinguisher about spaghetti (don't ask me why) and when people tried to talk to me to see if I was okay, I was apparently convinced I was on a bus to Spain for a holiday with friends. I have never been to Spain. I remember nothing, except for the start of the night and the end when I regained consciousness. The blackouts are very weird and not like the blackouts you get from alcohol, where you can't move or talk anymore and just sit slumped over on the floor or on a chair. I think judging from the effects, those alcohol plus MDMA blackouts have the potential of making you do crazy, dangerous or regrettable things if you don't have a friend to look out for you, though I have luckily never had it happen that I did such crazy or regrettable things

If by "drink" you didn't mean alcohol, then it's not relevant to you, just take this as a warning not to combine it with (too much) alcohol then

No I meant alcohol lol. You are right. The blackouts are a functioning rubber man.

Must behave lol

 

[new2drugs]

This is scary.



But is he being deliberately scary?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Why are you trying to start an argument?

Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that you are wrong. Just because MDMA includes 'methamphetamine' in the name, it doesn't mean that 'MDMA has methamphetamine in it' ( unless added as an adulterant, as I said).


Unless you were taking the piss with that comment, in which case, fair play to you sir...

 

[cosmosmariner]

I have used 5htp after MDMA successfully, but only after 24 hours, and only after taking 5htp with EGCG. I know Phobos said that the enzyme that converts is destroyed. My understanding is that the enzyme that is destroyed by MDMA is TPH, which would block the conversion of tryptophan to 5htp. I could be mistaken.

I always take magnesium, RALA, pycnogenol, ALCAR and memantine. Those allow me to recover without aftereffects.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've been attracted by MDMA for a long time but somehow because I'm prone to anxiety and depression never came to actually try it yet. Well as pharmacology helped me to kick morphine, I've been thinking about what we have to offer against empathogen rebound.
The primary origin will be a) serotonin and to a lesser extent dopamine depletion and b) neurotoxicity. The latter is probably mostly caused by dopamine's tendency to oxidate, thus causing free radicals which when occur at a concentration too high, will cause damage which (hopefully) will be repaired over some time.

Now for both there's a solution:
- 5-hydroxytryptophan circumvents the rate limiting step in serotonin production, so in theory should allow an immediate restock of precious 5-HT. Problem is that most of it gets metabolized in the gut, where it's useless and only produces nausea, thus limiting the amount one can/will take. Solution would be to combine with a peripheral carboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. These are used to avoid the same problem with pharmaceutical levodopa. I failed to source it in pure form but when it's not for antidepressive but post-roll use one might actually want to consider L-DOPA as well, just for the case dopamine should be depleted as well.

- Harm reduction organizations and smartshops dispend vitamine pills, specially Vitamin C as an antioxidant - that's the right intent but doesn't work as long as one isn't depleted. Thanks to our Russian friends we have emoxypine though which when taken plenty enough (125mg every 4-6h, dunno but doubt that a slight excess'd be that dangerous) is able to limit/alleviate dopamine oxidation. It has been shown to raise dopamine levels (because less of it gets broken down) and in an experiment it got rid of the methylphenidate rebound almost completely.

- What seems to be relevant specially against tooth grinding and muscle aches is magnesium. Here, again, what's often sold doesn't work quite right. We have an abundancy of different Mg forms and salts and not all of them are really bioavailable. This MIGHT be possible to switch/stack with a NMDA antagonist like memantine. I read from times to times that people use some ketamine to 'land' softly, which sounds entirely possible to me as they do the same with stimulants.

- Other, quite dangerous, attempt would involve low doses of a MAO-inhibitor, maybe a reversible one, AFTER the peak (using the right tool one might even get rid of up-peak-down). Inspired by 4,4'-dimethylaminorex, which when used in low dosage (25mg/d) gave me the maybe best two weeks in my life, it's ''crash'' was limited to a 5 min or so period of strong sadness but that was it. For 10+ days, every day again. As I got a strong hangover though from the first ~50mg I didn't dose higher but I suspect its MAOI properties to be very low to possibly insignificant besides toxicity with mixed use (well, it's gone anyways because of said toxicity and fatalities, sadly), I'm unsure but as it doesn't seem to be possible to use MDMA this way, in low dosages daily, the substance was special and I'd love to recreate this. Again, very dangerous, don't do it without an accurate mg scale and RIGID titration rules.

- Don't drink alcohol, it's horrendously toxic. People tend to drinkbining all possible substances because it's legal but it might easily be the most toxic psychoactive (not including overdoses) currently sold legally. It's ridiculous.

What do you think, is it possible to roll, maybe even 'too often' and getting away with it? Few people believe that you can actually skip opioid withdrawal but it's proven to work.

I used to roll three to four times a week for over a year and a half.
I can absolutely tell you that I never lost the magic.
I can also absolutely tell you that I did at least 75,000 mg of MDMA or suspected MDMA. Plus another 30,000 mg of research chemicals.

I'm not depressed, I never got depressed after rolling.

I don't believe that there's actually any definitive evidence of neurotoxicity. Brain remodeling after doses like mine, possibly, but apparently not in my case and if it happened it obviously didn't cause any problems.

From a normal 120 to 150 mg dose once a week. The power's at b have provided no evidence that that's neurotoxic or dangerous or even depletes neurotransmitters in the long term.

If the research scientists actually believed that a normal dose causes neurotoxicity, they never would give human subjects 2mg/kg doses. Regardless of whether they volunteered or not, it would be unethical to place volunteer test subjects in a situation where the researchers believed their brains would be harmed. I call b******* on the entire anti-MDMA establishment.

After the fraud that Ricaurte perpetrated regarding MDMA neuro toxicity, I don't trust any of the scientists that are saying it causes brain damage. And if you don't know who I'm talking about look up. George Ricaurte. I'll give you a hint, he fraudulently passed off brain damage caused by high dose intracranial injection of methamphetamine into monkey brains as if it was damaged caused by lower dose MDMA.

The whole foundation of MDMA puts holes in your brain.

And this man work for Johns Hopkins University.

 

[simstim]

Yeah saying mdma contains meth is like saying strychnine contains DMT or amphetamine contains benzene. Technically the skeleton is part of the formula but it's not a separate entity up in mdma.

You take mdma you piss dirty for mdma not meth.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah saying mdma contains meth is like saying strychnine contains DMT or amphetamine contains benzene. Technically the skeleton is part of the formula but it's not a separate entity up in mdma.

You take mdma you piss dirty for mdma not meth.

Actually, it would be more correct to say that both MDMA and methamphetamine both contain a P2P based backbone.

Obviously MDMA has the MDP2P based backbone.

 

[simstim]

Actually, it would be more correct to say that both MDMA and methamphetamine both contain a P2P based backbone.

Obviously MDMA has the MDP2P based backbone.

I think it's fair to say that they are both chemically methylamphetamines but they are not the same and do not contain each other in any way, shape, or form.

Where meth is phenyl mdma is methylenedioxy phenyl and that's not even something you can synthasize from meth.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Plugging MDMA is infinitely superior to insufflation too.

Would avoid liver route. Much more full, transcendental and longer lasting, stronger.

Way more pleasurable too.

Why do people post that plugging it avoids the liver?

It avoids the liver on the first pass, after it goes to the brain, it goes right to the liver.

Regardless of the route of administration, MDMA ends up in the liver. That is where it is metabolized. That is where it passes through before it gets to your kidneys and your bladder. Obviously the majority of it gets to your kidneys and your bladder as metabolites.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I loved MDMA at first. I moved on to Meth. MDMA does have Meth in it

No, it doesn't. Pills sold as MDMA may contain some methamphetamine.

MDMA even though it has the name methamphetamine in it, it does not contain any methamphetamine.

The actual molecular structures are completely different.

 

[Jabberwocky]

5-HTP doesn't really work to fix MDMA induced Serotonin depletion because MDMA not only releases most of your Serotonin, but also inhibits the enzyme that performs the last step in Serotonin synthesis, 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase.
This is why the blues starts 1-2 days after the roll for most people, because you still have some Serotonin left after the roll but you are not making any for a few days until your body produces more 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase.
Taking 5HTP won't hurt and it will help as soon as the body produces some more of this enzyme, but can't completely remove the blues.

I remember reading somewhere that it is not MDMA but a metabolite produced in the liver that inhibits this enzyme, so snorting MDMA will reduce the amount of this metabolite that gets produced as 1st pass will be skipped.
Anecdotally I find this to be true for me, snorting MDMA causes a less severe case of the blues, and I've read of other people reporting the same here on BL.

Also, taking Vitamin C before or during the roll will shorten the duration of the roll as you will expel MDMA at a faster rate.
Could be a good idea to take a couple of grams when you are almost down though, to get down to baseline a bit quicker.

Interestingly enough, taking Proviron/Mesterolone right before or during a roll reduced the comedown by about 7 days ie the day after I felt like a week had passed and subjectively I was almost at baseline.
I used 50mg of Proviron when I made this experiment, YMMV.

Funny enough, oxidation of tryptophan to 5-hydroxytryptophan is dependent on vitamin C. The creation of the enzyme 5-hydroxy tryptophan decarboxylase, requires both vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid, and also pyridoxine hydrochloride otherwise known as vitamin B6.

Most people are drastically deficient in both vitamin C and vitamin B6. Supplementation with vitamin C and vitamin B6 results in up regulation of five hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase genes as well as expression of the enzyme. That means your body starts making more of it right away. Sounds like vitamin C and vitamin B6 would be something to take in the event that the deficiency in 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase seen in rats given injections of MDMA actually applies to people.

I don't believe there are any definitive studies that it does. It is simply conjecture based on findings when they chopped up rat brains.

That is interesting because I never had the blues or lost the magic and I took ridiculous amounts of b complex 100 and vitamin B6 and vitamin C.

Snorting, shooting, plugging, it doesn't matter what route you choose it all ends up in the liver snorting it or plugging it avoids first pass metabolism meaning a lot more gets the brain more quickly before it is metabolized. But it all goes to the liver. If an enzyme is created in the liver, it's going to be created in the liver from MDMA. Regardless, whether you snort it, plug it or IV it or take it orally.

***** Avoiding first-pass metabolism in the liver does not mean you avoid all metabolism by the liver, that just means more gets to the brain first instead of being metabolized *****

Taking vitamin C will not shorten your roll. Even five grams of vitamin C is not enough to appreciably lower your urinary pH. And that's what you're talking about.

In fact, dehydration will make the urine much more acidic. This doesn't change excretion of MDMA because urinary flow is much decreased during dehydration. Dehydration is actually one of the causes of neurotoxicity as well as a longer area under the curve with respect to MDMA serum levels.

One must be careful thinking that something acidic acidifies urine. Orange juice which is arguably almost as acidic as vitamin C, actually alkalizes urine, that means it raises the pH, when large quantities are consumed, meaning a half a gallon in 2 hours.

Multiple studies have shown that free radical scavengers ameliorate the issues with respect to neuro toxicity and 5HT (serotonin) deficit.

This means high dose vitamin C, n-acetylcysteine, and other antioxidants will protect against 5HT (serotonin) deficits.

I posted along with other people in a thread on bluelight several years ago regarding high dose multiple times a day ascorbic acid or the salts of vitamin C like sodium, ascorbate etc. Or liposomal vitamin C, and not losing the magic. The doses discussed. Ranged from 1000 to 2000 mg three times a day, all the way up to as much as 15 g total taken throughout the day. Unless you have an extremely rare blood disorder, there is no toxic level of vitamin C.

I don't know what the pharmacology behind it is, but the fact that I am not the only one that has correlated extremely high dose vitamin C with never losing the magic seems to be more than coincidence.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If I had a blackout 5 weeks ago I must have drained all my serotonin. Didn't feel under the weather for long ,was fine in 2 days.

Probably ok to do it again

You literally can't drain all your serotonin. You would die.

 

[new2drugs]

You literally can't drain all your serotonin. You would die.

Oh ok..I thought it got depleted after mdma and takes time to get back.