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Rolling without the blues

plumbus-nine

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
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3,653
I've been attracted by MDMA for a long time but somehow because I'm prone to anxiety and depression never came to actually try it yet. Well as pharmacology helped me to kick morphine, I've been thinking about what we have to offer against empathogen rebound.
The primary origin will be a) serotonin and to a lesser extent dopamine depletion and b) neurotoxicity. The latter is probably mostly caused by dopamine's tendency to oxidate, thus causing free radicals which when occur at a concentration too high, will cause damage which (hopefully) will be repaired over some time.

Now for both there's a solution:
- 5-hydroxytryptophan circumvents the rate limiting step in serotonin production, so in theory should allow an immediate restock of precious 5-HT. Problem is that most of it gets metabolized in the gut, where it's useless and only produces nausea, thus limiting the amount one can/will take. Solution would be to combine with a peripheral carboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. These are used to avoid the same problem with pharmaceutical levodopa. I failed to source it in pure form but when it's not for antidepressive but post-roll use one might actually want to consider L-DOPA as well, just for the case dopamine should be depleted as well.

- Harm reduction organizations and smartshops dispend vitamine pills, specially Vitamin C as an antioxidant - that's the right intent but doesn't work as long as one isn't depleted. Thanks to our Russian friends we have emoxypine though which when taken plenty enough (125mg every 4-6h, dunno but doubt that a slight excess'd be that dangerous) is able to limit/alleviate dopamine oxidation. It has been shown to raise dopamine levels (because less of it gets broken down) and in an experiment it got rid of the methylphenidate rebound almost completely.

- What seems to be relevant specially against tooth grinding and muscle aches is magnesium. Here, again, what's often sold doesn't work quite right. We have an abundancy of different Mg forms and salts and not all of them are really bioavailable. This MIGHT be possible to switch/stack with a NMDA antagonist like memantine. I read from times to times that people use some ketamine to 'land' softly, which sounds entirely possible to me as they do the same with stimulants.

- Other, quite dangerous, attempt would involve low doses of a MAO-inhibitor, maybe a reversible one, AFTER the peak (using the right tool one might even get rid of up-peak-down). Inspired by 4,4'-dimethylaminorex, which when used in low dosage (25mg/d) gave me the maybe best two weeks in my life, it's ''crash'' was limited to a 5 min or so period of strong sadness but that was it. For 10+ days, every day again. As I got a strong hangover though from the first ~50mg I didn't dose higher but I suspect its MAOI properties to be very low to possibly insignificant besides toxicity with mixed use (well, it's gone anyways because of said toxicity and fatalities, sadly), I'm unsure but as it doesn't seem to be possible to use MDMA this way, in low dosages daily, the substance was special and I'd love to recreate this. Again, very dangerous, don't do it without an accurate mg scale and RIGID titration rules.

- Don't drink alcohol, it's horrendously toxic. People tend to drinkbining all possible substances because it's legal but it might easily be the most toxic psychoactive (not including overdoses) currently sold legally. It's ridiculous.

What do you think, is it possible to roll, maybe even 'too often' and getting away with it? Few people believe that you can actually skip opioid withdrawal but it's proven to work.
 
If it's outstanding quality MDMA, there's not much BLUES. Nothing that strong opiates can't take care off. That and not doing it too often, if you follow the rule of no more than 4 times a year blues are almost nonexistent imho.
 
Innerpeace said:
5 htp or passion flower may have caused serotonin syndrome for me.
Click to expand...
Together with MDMA? Well I forgot about passion flower, it indeed is a MAO inhibitor when one takes enough (usually potent extracts I thought but might be wrong), never heard about SS from adding only 5htp to something, they even sell it as an after trip aid but it's an obscure condition after all that is poorly defined and seemingly can ANY serotonergic substance cause it, and ANY second increases the risk but usually its MAOI + releaser.

May I ask what symptoms you had?
 
plumbus-nine said:
Together with MDMA? Well I forgot about passion flower, it indeed is a MAO inhibitor when one takes enough (usually potent extracts I thought but might be wrong), never heard about SS from adding only 5htp to something, they even sell it as an after trip aid but it's an obscure condition after all that is poorly defined and seemingly can ANY serotonergic substance cause it, and ANY second increases the risk but usually its MAOI + releaser.

May I ask what symptoms you had?
Click to expand...
No this was right after 5 mapb. Prior to this I haven't used anything in 13 years. Prior to this I use l dopa 99% for over a year straight. l dopa raises dopamine and lower serotonin. I work for a supplement company and got it for working for them. I simply did not know. More than likely it made the role extremely more potent. That said I'm not totally sure it was 107 mg 5 mapb.

Two nights later I started taking passion flower and one of the supplements I work for and 5-htp by itself. So I'm thinking it was a combination of all of these things as the side effects were very severe. So I did research on each compound that I was taking.

It may not affect you however it could so I wouldn't even risk it around the time when you plan on rolling. It's in the five maps b thread one and two. I have massive effects for 11 days afterwards and I finally told my mom that if I die she did a good job of raising me and I went to the my doctor the next day because that night I was cooking burgers and I passed out now the back of my head on the floor. I was emotional week low blood sugar dizzy it was just I was so messed up.
 
plumbus-nine said:
I've been attracted by MDMA for a long time but somehow because I'm prone to anxiety and depression never came to actually try it yet. Well as pharmacology helped me to kick morphine, I've been thinking about what we have to offer against empathogen rebound.
The primary origin will be a) serotonin and to a lesser extent dopamine depletion and b) neurotoxicity. The latter is probably mostly caused by dopamine's tendency to oxidate, thus causing free radicals which when occur at a concentration too high, will cause damage which (hopefully) will be repaired over some time.

Now for both there's a solution:
- 5-hydroxytryptophan circumvents the rate limiting step in serotonin production, so in theory should allow an immediate restock of precious 5-HT. Problem is that most of it gets metabolized in the gut, where it's useless and only produces nausea, thus limiting the amount one can/will take. Solution would be to combine with a peripheral carboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. These are used to avoid the same problem with pharmaceutical levodopa. I failed to source it in pure form but when it's not for antidepressive but post-roll use one might actually want to consider L-DOPA as well, just for the case dopamine should be depleted as well.

- Harm reduction organizations and smartshops dispend vitamine pills, specially Vitamin C as an antioxidant - that's the right intent but doesn't work as long as one isn't depleted. Thanks to our Russian friends we have emoxypine though which when taken plenty enough (125mg every 4-6h, dunno but doubt that a slight excess'd be that dangerous) is able to limit/alleviate dopamine oxidation. It has been shown to raise dopamine levels (because less of it gets broken down) and in an experiment it got rid of the methylphenidate rebound almost completely.

- What seems to be relevant specially against tooth grinding and muscle aches is magnesium. Here, again, what's often sold doesn't work quite right. We have an abundancy of different Mg forms and salts and not all of them are really bioavailable. This MIGHT be possible to switch/stack with a NMDA antagonist like memantine. I read from times to times that people use some ketamine to 'land' softly, which sounds entirely possible to me as they do the same with stimulants.

- Other, quite dangerous, attempt would involve low doses of a MAO-inhibitor, maybe a reversible one, AFTER the peak (using the right tool one might even get rid of up-peak-down). Inspired by 4,4'-dimethylaminorex, which when used in low dosage (25mg/d) gave me the maybe best two weeks in my life, it's ''crash'' was limited to a 5 min or so period of strong sadness but that was it. For 10+ days, every day again. As I got a strong hangover though from the first ~50mg I didn't dose higher but I suspect its MAOI properties to be very low to possibly insignificant besides toxicity with mixed use (well, it's gone anyways because of said toxicity and fatalities, sadly), I'm unsure but as it doesn't seem to be possible to use MDMA this way, in low dosages daily, the substance was special and I'd love to recreate this. Again, very dangerous, don't do it without an accurate mg scale and RIGID titration rules.

- Don't drink alcohol, it's horrendously toxic. People tend to drinkbining all possible substances because it's legal but it might easily be the most toxic psychoactive (not including overdoses) currently sold legally. It's ridiculous.

What do you think, is it possible to roll, maybe even 'too often' and getting away with it? Few people believe that you can actually skip opioid withdrawal but it's proven to work.
Click to expand...
Mhmmmm, Doing MDMA very often Loses it's so called magic very fast and it's not all about the substance. The set and setting has to be great in order to have an outstanding seshhh and there aren't BEAST raves every weekend plus it's quite expensive going to one. Imo, it's better to save it for special ocassions only( when a super good DJ comes to town, a festival, New years eve party, etc) if you have a gf and she does MDMA with you that's a +999 bonus. It can help you make the bond with your couple even stronger. MDMA it's very intense too, when I used to do it frequently I still took some days off to process the experiences(crazyass raves with the Gang). MDMA is not about quantity,it's about quality.
Quality in every single aspect( the purity of your drugs, if you're with your missus, if it's a kickass party, if your brain has had time to regain it's serotonin from your last roll, etc) That's why only a few times a year only it's enough. 🔥
 
I recently did some 5-mapb but way less than 107mg, I guess it were around 30, still was fun despite being on SSRI and NO rebound at all. But said loss of magic I think is connected to the rebound some/many experience and strongly related to dose because as said, I did 4,4'-DMAR low dose for 2 weeks and got only slow diminishment of effects. Unfortunately my gf is against drugs and favorites different music than me so I can't do it with her :(

Still curious whether one can replenish the storages of 5-HT fast and strongly enough to avoid a loss of magic. If combination with a dissociative might help as it does for opioids.
 
Well I feel ok so far, and low dosed experiments with 4,4'-DMAR, 4-MMC and 5-MAPB were all flawless. I'm just senseless scared of high dosages, but the intent of this thread was to elucidate whether rolling without much comedown was possible (has probably been discussed countless times but I didn't find a thread quickly).

Forgot in the OP: SSRIs might also be a helping option, as I am hooked on fluoxetine (yeah, just can't bear the withdrawal. Like as in e.g. heroin.) and had no rebound from these low doses, sometimes even repeated, so I wonder what role maybe SSRIs play, in theory should they block the activity of empathogens because transporters are occupied but it doesn't work like that somehow.
 
I feel it's a two way street. Imo SSRIs and rolling are a no no. Maybe low dosed but that's still risky, and I simply don't know enough

If you haven't done anything in a long time, even a low dose can raise serotonin, help you feel what it's like to feel amazing. Basically a temporary serotonin boost .
 
simstim said:
I don't think MDMA will work at all on fluoxetine.
Click to expand...
~30mg of 5-MAPB felt like the real deal based on the amount. It was some hours of pure feeling lucky despite miserable life situation, then I fell asleep and woke up refreshed. But maybe I developed tolerance to SSRIs and there are now plenty of SERT transporters able to readily shoveling out that precious 5-HT. But from a high dose experiment of 120mg fluoxetine I felt absolutely same as with 40mg, really not even adverse effects, nothing so I believe that the SERT is still occupied. But this would mean that MAPB is a transporter inverse agonist with affinity higher than fluoxetine, displacing it, right?

Innerpeace said:
I feel it's a two way street. Imo SSRIs and rolling are a no no. Maybe low dosed but that's still risky, and I simply don't know enough
Click to expand...
Why? I thought the danger was about MAOIs, but yeah I have titrated to such experiments, I tolerate a shitload of serotonin, unfortunately because this includes meaning that SSRIs are basically worthless fort me now. SSRI+SSRA should rather just block the releaser afaik.
 
plumbus-nine said:
Now for both there's a solution:
- 5-hydroxytryptophan circumvents the rate limiting step in serotonin production, so in theory should allow an immediate restock of precious 5-HT. Problem is that most of it gets metabolized in the gut, where it's useless and only produces nausea, thus limiting the amount one can/will take. Solution would be to combine with a peripheral carboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. These are used to avoid the same problem with pharmaceutical levodopa. I failed to source it in pure form but when it's not for antidepressive but post-roll use one might actually want to consider L-DOPA as well, just for the case dopamine should be depleted as well.
Click to expand...
5-HTP doesn't really work to fix MDMA induced Serotonin depletion because MDMA not only releases most of your Serotonin, but also inhibits the enzyme that performs the last step in Serotonin synthesis, 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase.
This is why the blues starts 1-2 days after the roll for most people, because you still have some Serotonin left after the roll but you are not making any for a few days until your body produces more 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase.
Taking 5HTP won't hurt and it will help as soon as the body produces some more of this enzyme, but can't completely remove the blues.

I remember reading somewhere that it is not MDMA but a metabolite produced in the liver that inhibits this enzyme, so snorting MDMA will reduce the amount of this metabolite that gets produced as 1st pass will be skipped.
Anecdotally I find this to be true for me, snorting MDMA causes a less severe case of the blues, and I've read of other people reporting the same here on BL.

Also, taking Vitamin C before or during the roll will shorten the duration of the roll as you will expel MDMA at a faster rate.
Could be a good idea to take a couple of grams when you are almost down though, to get down to baseline a bit quicker.

Interestingly enough, taking Proviron/Mesterolone right before or during a roll reduced the comedown by about 7 days ie the day after I felt like a week had passed and subjectively I was almost at baseline.
I used 50mg of Proviron when I made this experiment, YMMV.
 
Phobos said:
I remember reading somewhere that it is not MDMA but a metabolite produced in the liver that inhibits this enzyme, so snorting MDMA will reduce the amount of this metabolite that gets produced as 1st pass will be skipped.
Anecdotally I find this to be true for me, snorting MDMA causes a less severe case of the blues, and I've read of other people reporting the same here on BL.
Click to expand...
This is interesting and might mean that the RC derivates like 5-MAPB, 6-APB etc. don't share this specific mechanism and work together with 5-HTP.

Interestingly enough, taking Proviron/Mesterolone right before or during a roll reduced the comedown by about 7 days ie the day after I felt like a week had passed and subjectively I was almost at baseline.
I used 50mg of Proviron when I made this experiment, YMMV.
Click to expand...
Oh I'd like to try proviron, but it's out of stock at the pharmacies around, and they don't order for you.. guess a result of low salary :/ Need to order from China, Wuhan located lol maybe the lab where Covid-19 escaped.

Do you feel anything from proviron directly?
 
It improves sex drive and all kinds of cool shit. I did it for 4 years strait and had a blast doing it and partying but it fucked with my mental health and made me extremely horny at moments.
 
plumbus-nine said:
I've been attracted by MDMA for a long time but somehow because I'm prone to anxiety and depression never came to actually try it yet. Well as pharmacology helped me to kick morphine, I've been thinking about what we have to offer against empathogen rebound.
The primary origin will be a) serotonin and to a lesser extent dopamine depletion and b) neurotoxicity. The latter is probably mostly caused by dopamine's tendency to oxidate, thus causing free radicals which when occur at a concentration too high, will cause damage which (hopefully) will be repaired over some time.

Now for both there's a solution:
- 5-hydroxytryptophan circumvents the rate limiting step in serotonin production, so in theory should allow an immediate restock of precious 5-HT. Problem is that most of it gets metabolized in the gut, where it's useless and only produces nausea, thus limiting the amount one can/will take. Solution would be to combine with a peripheral carboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. These are used to avoid the same problem with pharmaceutical levodopa. I failed to source it in pure form but when it's not for antidepressive but post-roll use one might actually want to consider L-DOPA as well, just for the case dopamine should be depleted as well.

- Harm reduction organizations and smartshops dispend vitamine pills, specially Vitamin C as an antioxidant - that's the right intent but doesn't work as long as one isn't depleted. Thanks to our Russian friends we have emoxypine though which when taken plenty enough (125mg every 4-6h, dunno but doubt that a slight excess'd be that dangerous) is able to limit/alleviate dopamine oxidation. It has been shown to raise dopamine levels (because less of it gets broken down) and in an experiment it got rid of the methylphenidate rebound almost completely.

- What seems to be relevant specially against tooth grinding and muscle aches is magnesium. Here, again, what's often sold doesn't work quite right. We have an abundancy of different Mg forms and salts and not all of them are really bioavailable. This MIGHT be possible to switch/stack with a NMDA antagonist like memantine. I read from times to times that people use some ketamine to 'land' softly, which sounds entirely possible to me as they do the same with stimulants.

- Other, quite dangerous, attempt would involve low doses of a MAO-inhibitor, maybe a reversible one, AFTER the peak (using the right tool one might even get rid of up-peak-down). Inspired by 4,4'-dimethylaminorex, which when used in low dosage (25mg/d) gave me the maybe best two weeks in my life, it's ''crash'' was limited to a 5 min or so period of strong sadness but that was it. For 10+ days, every day again. As I got a strong hangover though from the first ~50mg I didn't dose higher but I suspect its MAOI properties to be very low to possibly insignificant besides toxicity with mixed use (well, it's gone anyways because of said toxicity and fatalities, sadly), I'm unsure but as it doesn't seem to be possible to use MDMA this way, in low dosages daily, the substance was special and I'd love to recreate this. Again, very dangerous, don't do it without an accurate mg scale and RIGID titration rules.

- Don't drink alcohol, it's horrendously toxic. People tend to drinkbining all possible substances because it's legal but it might easily be the most toxic psychoactive (not including overdoses) currently sold legally. It's ridiculous.

What do you think, is it possible to roll, maybe even 'too often' and getting away with it? Few people believe that you can actually skip opioid withdrawal but it's proven to work.
Click to expand...
I am one rat who got away.

My tail did get sacrificed at the time. But it regrew in new ways. I've no regrets. I experienced all the extreme side effects, actual damages and disruptions typically reported in LTC.

But it only toughened me up and served to really catapult me on my inner personal development quest through life.

However, that was then. (96-05).

I would not actually want personally to take a single dose of MDMA now, I'd probably die directly from physical NS allergy, but even if not, I'd be convinced it would take away a significant element of my fluid imaginative sharpness, memory, such easy effortless and fun natural expression/ language use.

LSD doesn't concern me there. It actually seems honestly to continually improve my imaginative thought processes, and speech, vocabulary.

Exstacy would alter this structure in my own mind.

I'd probably feel happier in ways, freer, but I'd be reduced cognitively and intellectually at this stage for me I feel.


But a sure 325 grams at least by age 25, I took a hammering. 2,3:4,6,9,11 consecutive days rolling regular. Insane amounts too. For a near decade.

I did a full circle of rebuilding my psyche and cognitive pathways over years & years, but I was actually feeling very very okay still in early 2005 when the real impact came, aka Lyme Disease.

All the MDMA in the world is a park walk next to. It gave me perspective over time.

@plumbus-nine I can appreciate your enquiry and needs, goals. I feel same, even what said above. So much so I bought 2 220 mg Dutch pills 3 years ago.

But am wise enough to seek a safer more sensible path.

It takes time to rebuild fully after exstacy.

I took that time, glad I did, actually glad I was blessed to so heavily usethe best exstacy from everywhere to my heart's content. And recover pretty damn fully.


Kava might help! It supports healthy neurochemistry balancing. I bet it would mitigate somewhat, enable a smoother following while.

Tbh it's really not so bad anyway. What goes up...must come down....then it was always back up again, by say friday.

So it was just a cycle. Nowhere near as testing, unsighting and deeply consuming as post LSD is now mentally & emotionally.
 
Plugging MDMA is infinitely superior to insufflation too.

Would avoid liver route. Much more full, transcendental and longer lasting, stronger.

Way more pleasurable too.
 
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