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Reversing stim tolerance by low dosing?

SmokingAces

SmokingAces

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
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This is a thread a friend has asked me to start. As he thinks it is a good idea and wants to try it, but he read the dangers and I said it might not be a good idea and the logic of taking more drugs to reduce tolerance to drugs seems crazy. But here we go...

While high-dose stimulant use leads to tolerance, very low dose stimulant use leads to reverse tolerance, which can be permanent.

Tests in human subjects has shown that after been given a low dosage of Amphetamine, the subjective high rating from a large dose of Amphetamine has nearly doubled. In rats, dopaminergic supersensitivity from low-dosage stimulant exposure lasts at least 12 days, and in primates, this hypersensitivity been demonstrated to last at least 2.5 years postwithdrawal.
This means that very low doses of stimulants can permanently increase the brain's sensitivity to dopamine (by increasing dopamine receptors in the high sensitivity state). This can result in long-term increase of self-confidence, motivation and focus.
Now you probably ask yourself - what's so bad about that? Having permanently elevated dopamine sensitivity and 0 stimulant tolerance? That sounds good, right?
Well, it has a dark side. Persistent dopaminergic supersensitivity has a number of negative consequences:

  • Impairment of sleep quality. This can result in sleep loss and tiredness during the day.
  • Motor tics. Since dopamine controls movement, an increase of dopamine sensitivity in the basal ganglia and the motor cortex can lead to involuntarily muscle movements.
  • Irrationality. Too much dopamine in the striatum and the nucleus accumbens can make emotion override logical decisions made in the prefrontal cortex.
So, yeah, be careful with very low doses of stimulants. It has been demonstrated countless times that very low doses instantly diminish tolerance, cause long-lasting dopaminergic supersensitivity and increase sensitivity to stimulants administered in the future.
If anyone is wondering about why this happens on the neurochemical level, it is because stimulants, when given in very low dosages, are unable to activate their sites of action to increase monoamines.
For example, Amphetamine is a full agonist to TAAR1 (that's what makes it release dopamine, in addition to a few other receptors). In high doses, this works great and the usual effects are felt, but when the dosage is too low, Amphetamine is unable to activate this receptor, but it still binds to it. The result? TAAR1 antagonism, which means less dopamine is released. As an homeostatic and hormetic response, dopamine receptors IMMEDIATELY increase their sensitivity and this effect is significantly felt when the next dose of the stimulant is administered.
Here's a couple of anecdotes of this happening (one is about MDMA - while MDMA is not a stimulant, it's an amphetamine and shares similar mechanisms of actions with other amphetamines):
Adderall (Source):
The first few times I tested this out, I took the small dose first and then a larger dose later. (Even though I coincidentally discovered his posts after I got the effect). This time I took 10mg Adderall, at 4.55 am this morning, felt like the normal dose I usually took. 3.5 hours later, I took 1mg Adderall (honestly probably less than 1mg). I got really motivated and accomplished more studying than I had in weeks. I took another 1 mg (probably less) 2 hours later when the motivation was wearing down. I got the same effect for several more hours. I took another 1 mg around mid-day (maybe a little later). I should not have done that. It's 5.17 pm here right now. I felt like I had taken the largest dose of Adderall I have ever taken before (and I have taken up to 100mg in times of final exams.) I was extremely irritable for the past 2-3 hours and had an extreme amount of energy. My chest was very tight and I just felt crazy, like I overdosed. I am crashing pretty bad right now and the last time I felt this way on Adderall was some time around when I started. My pupils are also really dilated. Now, can anyone help tell me if this is hormesis? It sounds like it but I don't really know what's going on. In total I took about 13mg for the most, which felt like over 100mg. I did more work than I have done in weeks-months and I didn't eat anything for the day. I can't remember the last time Adderall gave me that effects, maybe the first few months. BTW, these posts and what I did are real. I made a mistake and posted from this troll account the first time I replied to OP's Hormesis posts so I guess I just continued with this account.
​
MDMA (Source):
I'm not too sure of taking it [MDMA] a few days before, but I once took a small amount at around 11am, didn't feel much apart from a little bit of jitters and chattiness... then at around 6pm took the same amount and I started rolling hard! I was grinding my teeth, unable to sit still, eye wobbles, slight visual distortion, ridiculous empathy! haha, great experience, but have no idea why
​
Another one of MDMA (Source):
Unfortunately all I have are anecdotes, which can be unreliable at times. One acquaintance of mine swears by it, though. He would take 20-30mg as a primer dose the day before. I think some people were talking about it on either bluelight or drugs-forum too.
​
TL;DR: Low doses of stimulants can permanently increase the brain's sensitivity to dopamine, resulting in consequences like stimulant supersensitivity, sleep loss and motor tics. Be very careful with stimulant dosing - obviously don't take high doses that are neurotoxic, but don't take doses that are too low to cause sensitization.
Click to expand...





Have any Bluelighter's ever heard of or tried this? And if so what do you guys think?

To my mind taking more drugs even if at low doses to reduce tolerance seems stupid, just take a break and dose a decent amount when you do use is my school of thought. Interested to hear what others think.
 
My immediate thought on this - If you have a crazy tolerance is by overusing the stuff in the first place. If you didn't have the willpower to keep your dosing low or spaced out enough at the start, how are you going to manage to take small amounts of a substance, not get any high from it but then stop dosing?

I suppose that if you only take a small amount instead of your usual dose your tolerance will go down but slower than if you just stopped all together.

Bear
 
Bearlove said:
I suppose that if you only take a small amount instead of your usual dose your tolerance will go down but slower than if you just stopped all together.

Bear
Click to expand...

That's actually not what it's saying Bear and makes me think you didn't read it before replying? What the people advocating this are trying to say is by very low dosing you basically reset your tolerance completely. To my knowledge no length of break is likely to do this completely, with a break you just get a little more high and better all round effect from your usual dose. A break does not reset tolerance completely.

I think I'll post this somewhere else in the forum, searching for any credible input these days in EADD is pretty fruitless. It's all about nudie threads and what people had for lunch.
 
Sid said:
That's actually not what it's saying Bear and makes me think you didn't read it before replying? What the people advocating this are trying to say is by very low dosing you basically reset your tolerance completely. To my knowledge no length of break is likely to do this completely, with a break you just get a little more high and better all round effect from your usual dose. A break does not reset tolerance completely.

I think I'll post this somewhere else in the forum, searching for any credible input these days in EADD is pretty fruitless. It's all about nudie threads and what people had for lunch.
Click to expand...

Actually I did read it before replying, you said you would be interested to hear what others think. Sorry my input was deemed fruitless, I'll certainly not waste your time in the future.

Bear
 
Really? Well how on earth did you manage to come to this then Bear? If you really read it then posted this then you're not very sharp this morning.

Bearlove said:
I suppose that if you only take a small amount instead of your usual dose your tolerance will go down but slower than if you just stopped all together.

Bear
Click to expand...
 
Sid said:
That's actually not what it's saying Bear and makes me think you didn't read it before replying? What the people advocating this are trying to say is by very low dosing you basically reset your tolerance completely. To my knowledge no length of break is likely to do this completely, with a break you just get a little more high and better all round effect from your usual dose. A break does not reset tolerance completely.

I think I'll post this somewhere else in the forum, searching for any credible input these days in EADD is pretty fruitless. It's all about nudie threads and what people had for lunch.
Click to expand...

Woa there. That's a bit harsh........

Evey
 
Interesting, and it actually sounds feasible. There was a time when I'd only ever take very small doses of stimulants, due to anxiety, and when I upped my dosing, I'd be flying. However, there was certainly nothing permanent about it, as my stimulant tolerance is now pretty high. I'm tempted to try this out. However, I think a decent period of abstinence would be needed, to allow dopamine receptors to upregulate, before they'd respond to this method. I'm interested to know whether this could actually cause receptors to upregulate faster than normal. As someone with ADHD, it'd be nice to have a permanently 'switched on' dopamine system. Perhaps that's why some kids taking low doses of stimulants end up with a massive reduction in symptoms, as they get older. I have definitely read that ADD/ADHD medication can cause longterm correction in brain dopamine levels, even when stopped.
 
Sounds like bs to me, during my 2 months+ of doing coke daily during the week time (especially towards the end) I was only using a tiny amount but it didn't seem to have any noticeable effect on reducing my tolerance. Maybe over a longer time period but not something I'd put too much faith in, only thing that seems to have removed/dramatically reduced my tolerance to anything was a long break from the specific substance.

Example (as it's probably the longest break I've had from anything), when I stopped using coke for err... longer than 6 months, might even have been 8 (not saying you need that long, just how it happened) was the one time I've noticed a drug effecting me as much as when I first tried it at the same dose (even after hammering the arse off it).

So yeah, decent break to reset tolerance is what I'd recommend but if anyone gives this a try I'd be interested in the results.

Treacle said:
However, I think a decent period of abstinence would be needed, to allow dopamine receptors to upregulate, before they'd respond to this method. I'm interested to know whether this could actually cause receptors to upregulate faster than normal.
Click to expand...

This sounds the most feasible way this could work but I'm no scientist and not much of a druggie anymore either so who knows ;)
 
^ I was thinking when I started this thread someone might have already tried it. Someone with a prescription to ADD meds or something. But I wouldn't advise anyone does, for these reasons

Persistent dopaminergic supersensitivity has a number of negative consequences:


  • Impairment of sleep quality. This can result in sleep loss and tiredness during the day.
  • Motor tics. Since dopamine controls movement, an increase of dopamine sensitivity in the basal ganglia and the motor cortex can lead to involuntarily muscle movements.
  • Irrationality. Too much dopamine in the striatum and the nucleus accumbens can make emotion override logical decisions made in the prefrontal cortex.
Click to expand...

I also can't see it would work with something like cocaine, in the same manner it would with someone dosing amphetamines for concentration purposes etc. Coke tolerance seems easily reset with a break as in the first line will hit you. Amphetamine/MDMA is not so easily reset I find.
 
Yeah, coke only stops the reuptake of dopamine, without causing its release. It's also very short acting, so this experiment would really only be applicable to methamphetamine/amphetamine and ADHD meds, such as methylphenidate.
 
The mate who actually asked me to post this thread wanted to hear if anyone had tried it, because he has a tolerance problem.

He'd never used amphetamine before until the other day. "98% pure" amphetamine powder (he's sent some off to energy control for confirmation of this) yet he wound up doing half a gram first time he'd tried speed in 24 hours. He was boarder line addicted to meph recently though, regularly doing 2-5grams in a session it sounds like over a few days. He was high when I spoke to him on the amp for sure. But he says it never hit him that hard and he even took a 40mg line 24hours into the binge and fell asleep just after. So once he gets his lab test back on the speed if it is as strong as the seller claims he's wondering what the can do to reduce his tolerance. As this speed attempt was after a couple of months away from mephedrone. He said he even took a 6 month break from meph before went back and still had the tolerance.
I can believe this as I know meph ruined a lot of people's MDMA tolerances, me at the time for one. So it will be interesting to see if his speed was pure as the seller claimed and if he does choose to try this. Although I did highlight the risks and he said if he did choose to consider it any further he would look into it much further before committing to it.
 
I think coke does release dopamine but not anything like the same amounts as meth, meph, amp etc.

Erowid

Cocaine blocks the re-uptake of dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin. This causes a buildup of these neurotransmitters, as they remain in the synapse after the nerve impulse and continue to activate the receptors. The primary effects felt are from dopamine (pleasure) and norepinephrine (stimulation), although this is obviously an over-simplified description.
 
Yeh, I just checked out Wiki and that includes pretty much the same paragraph. It's amazing that the concentrations in the synapse can accumulate quickly enough to produce that rush. Just goes to show how important monoamine reuptake actually is.
 
I don't find much rush with snorting coke at all. Crack yes like a warm rush, I never get sketch on crack either. Which is strange as I do on powder coke, powder seems the most morish and hardest to stop binging for me because it's so subtle and you can get away with using it 24/7. Glad I stopped.

Give me meth anyday over coke. Much more pronounced euphoria from much less product. No feeling ripped off or worthless after either.
 
Crack sketches me out totally - horrible, horrible stuff (except for the first pipe of the day, which is godly). The rush from snorting powder is admittedly less intense, but I find it more pleasurable in a 'less is more' kinda way.
 
If the crack is made from clean coke ie no active cuts it shouldn't. Neither should the powder. But it depends how much of a fiend you are, I'm very bad with it which is why it sends me round the twist. Coke IMO is a drug which is more about the ritual (racking lines, washing up) than it is the actual drug for many people. The ones who know the score with it out of all the heavy "cokeheads" I've met is like 10% know what they're actually talking about.

I think this reversing tolerance thing is only really practically likely to be used by people on prescribed stimulants, whatever the condition. I hadn't had meth for only like 4 days and 75mg has sent me to the moon, I think my tolerance with everything is almost baseline at the moment. And now I'm off seroquel I'm hoping the same will be true for MDMA.
 
Sid said:
Give me meth anyday over coke. Much more pronounced euphoria from much less product. No feeling ripped off or worthless after either.
Click to expand...

Likewise. A lot of the coke ive bought in the past has had some edge and irritability to it. maybe cut with EPH or something. eitherway i reckon meth is much better bang for buck
 
Compared to other stimulants, I find coke has by far the least side-effects, no sketchiness and no comedown, if it isn't cut with other actives (which is how it should be). It doesn't make me feel jittery, anxious, or wired, it just makes me extremely talkative and alert, with a unique calmness. I can sleep fine, within a short time after the last line, and wake up feeling totally normal. I suppose that's the difference between stimulants that only stop the reuptake of dopamine, and ones that also release it... Coke is very short-acting, but very potent at what it does, hence the surprisingly powerful effect.
 
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