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Reasoning for/against a creator

Cheshire_Kat said:
After over 85 years on this earth and over 60 years searching for answers to questions like that I must admit that I am no closer to the answers than when I started.
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Do you have the same problem with Superman and Unicorns?

Why not, given that he is also a fantasy?

Regards
DL
 
Gormur said:
For:
There's a creator because we can't explain everything with science
There's a creator because it gives people a purpose, therefore Creator
There's a creator because people write books that come true; there are prophets and magicians therefore a creator must be behind it

Against:
There's no creator because we can't explain it with science
There's no creator as it serves no purpose
There's no creator despite visionaries writing books that predict the future

Conclusion:
A creator wouldn't need to predict the future or interact with humans in order to exist. What it'd need to do is let us all know of its existence without searching for it. I don't think I've ever heard a good breakdown on this from either side as it seems like people often just get angry about it or they don't know what they're talking about. Thoughts?
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It strikes me that none of your for or against reasons are very good. I will briefly state my reasons for thinking this.

For:
- The fallibility of science doesn't imply the existence of anything (apart from the trivial sense in which it implies the existence of fallible scientific practices and practitioners), let alone a creator.
- Different people are given purpose from different beliefs, and they can't all be true. So we can't generally conclude that a belief which gives purpose to someone is correct in virtue of that fact alone; you have given no reason to think belief in a creator should be any different.
- The weak sense in which there are prophets and magicians (whereby they engage in a kind of deception, or get lucky with their predictions, etc.) is unsurprising. The strong sense in which there are magicians and prophets (who do actual magic, or have some vision of the future which is in some sense causally determined by future events) is almost certainly not the case. Even if we granted arguendo that such people existed, on the face of it, that doesn't imply the existence of a creator any more than it implies a natural world which is yet to be fully understood.

Against:
- Whether a creator exists is beyond the scope of empirical science, so the lack of a scientific explanation is hardly surprising.
- By your reasoning in the 'for' section, the existence of a creator could at least serve the purpose of giving meaning to the lives of certain believers. Additionally, it's highly questionable to assume that the existence of a creator is contingent upon whether said existence would serve human beings in some way.
- This is an assertion, not a reason.

A few years ago I made a fun thread to discuss one attempt at rigorously arguing in favour of the existence of a creator. If you are interested, you can find it here.
 
life is far too complex.

We are talking about a biological machine far more advanced than any computer or machine we've made assembling itself from a pile of primordial chemicals? Then differentiating itself itself into countless distinct forms of life.

The odds are zero.
 
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Wow ...... ok so obvious differing opinions on this subject. The Creator of all is none of the masochistic vile homophobic type person that has been said. He simply does not want his rules to be disobeyed. When someone is punished in the Bible majority of the time it's because they were going against commandment. God created man and woman for a reason so they could unite as one. He did not create Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve. To call a loving God those names is beyond me, but also I see why some people have their reasons on why they do not care for the idea of a loving Creator because that's what he is. Everything that you are allowed to do and have is because of him. Everything in your life is because of this Creator. To be in such disgust of someone that loves you so much just shows that there is always going to be differing sides of views and such, but I know that my God and your God will never be any of those horrible names. Everything and I mean everything that is yours is because of him. Just saying.
 
to double post but am slow atm so prolly wont be
summertropicz36 said:
To be in such disgust of someone that loves you so much
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This hits me hard as a mf. Lterally tears as I know something is here that will help me with a very crushing realization and self destructive emotion. namely: why do we treat those closest to us the worse. for the moment lets leave god out of it plz.
it will take a minute to work this out but the gist:
someone i love more than myself. teated as a stranger and resentment. not always. but the undercurrent is there... just like the beast. this "entity" loves and will lay down their life for me without thought or doubt. i am the same. we are one.
why do i have these feelings? there may no be any outward answers but this thread and the last couple posts shed a sliver of light on a VERY dark place inside me and may be the beginning of freedom from this weight carried around for ages.
it def hirts to even think o this but am no stranger to pain and will do what is necesarry to be free.
always love
 
The term "agent" has some application and appropriateness in this "reality", two types both real IMO because even though the artificial reality we live in is an illusion, with real reality and the actual big picture more obscured from us than an iceberg, it still runs, and we run through it.

So by that philosophy call it, The Matrix, is still real. Like location.

They didn't use the term Agent, in the Matrix films, for no reason.

Nor I consider even moreso probably, "Architect".

It's just a question of this Architect, I assume to be intermedient myself between us and whatever higher, divine power truly exists, who/what he is and simply, I'd really like to know at long last, what the whole damn frigging plan is.
 
Ftr I see good in people.

Also a lack of it.

And I dare say, evil too in some.

I see evil afoot or abundance L, R & centre in the "World". I see good too.

I see life on Earth and obviously beyond therefore as a spiritual battle between two opposing forces, playing out like, well a play.

Just could be a much fucking better one IMO Jeez I'd have written a much better scriot myself I reckon.
 
simstim said:
We are talking about a biological machine far more advanced than any computer or machine we've made assembling itself from a pile of primordial chemicals? Then differentiating itself itself into countless distinct forms of life.
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when you choose to describe it like that, and omit the timeline, it does sound far-fetched.

how is it possible that a simple river - a river! - could create this:

dreamstime_xxl_14224279.jpg


well, it took 6 million years but it happened.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
when you choose to describe it like that, and omit the timeline, it does sound far-fetched.

how is it possible that a simple river - a river! - could create this:

dreamstime_xxl_14224279.jpg


well, it took 6 million years but it happened.

alasdair
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That's kiddy shit compared to all the chemicals necessary for the proper function of a body, or even a single cell.

It's pretty though.
 
perhaps you missed my point (or perhaps i didn't make it very well).

yes, the process which created the canyon in simple but it's the timeline that's important. so it is with evolution - you can't see it happening but, given enough time, it makes perfect sense.

your argument basically boils down to "there is a creator because there just has to be one...". to me, not at all convincing. and certainly much less convincing than what we know about the planet's evolution.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
perhaps you missed my point (or perhaps i didn't make it very well).

yes, the process which created the canyon in simple but it's the timeline that's important. so it is with evolution - you can't see it happening but, given enough time, it makes perfect sense.

your argument basically boils down to "there is a creator because there just has to be one...". to me, not at all convincing. and certainly much less convincing than what we know about the planet's evolution.

alasdair
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My argument is actually that the individual chemicals required to compose an animal or even single celled organism do not occur naturally and the likelihood that they would combine to form even one single cell without outside intervention is exactly zero.
 
^ you do not believe that elements like carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc. occur naturally?

alasdair
 
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