Possible Explaination Into Reports Of Toxicity With Oral 5-MeO-DMT/Peganum Harmala

[Morninggloryseed]

On the other hand, the "vine provides the force and chacruna provides the light" as I am always told.
What is being said is that the vine is ayahuasca, and is of primary importance to those cultures that use it. The vine is not just a means of activating DMT orally. The vine is ayahuasca, and DMT can be used as an additive...but this is not nessessary as ayahuasca is a visionary on its own.

But no one is arguing that DMT-laden ayahuasca is going to be more 'visual' than ayahuasca without it. Damn! But it is of central importance, and without it, there would be no ayahuasca. The vine does a lot more than just make the DMT orally active.

 

[DemonSeed]

I am a glad I used B.Caapi the one time i did 5-meo-dmt oral. That was a rough ride but remained managable.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I don't think caapi alone will make you see jaguars unless you are incredibly suggestible...There's no way on earth anyone is going to paint things like that after taking caapi by itself.

I don't believe caapi alone will give anyone an experience even remotely similar to a true ayahuasca experience. .

You are wrong man! Caapi is ayahuasca.

/me bangs head n wall

How can ayahuasca not give an ayahuasca experience?

There is so much litertature out there that directly disputes what you are saying. IN addition, check out some of the older publications on harmine and harmaline....both are known for inducing 'jaguars' and 'jungle-like' vision. Check out "Yage Letters" in which they make ayahuasca using NO DMT plants.

To say that all of the visionary potential of ayahuasca rests in its DMT content is just wrong. ANd to further things...have you taken caapi alone to dispute over a hundred years of written knowledge (and thousands upon thousands of years of practical knowledge) of this plant?

Another good source of thourough documentation of ayahuasca that shows it used as a visionary sans DMT is "Notes of a Botanist on the Amazon and Andes" by Spruce which he wrote while exploring the upper Rio Negro of the Brazilian Amazon. In it, he described its sources, its preparation and its effects upon himself.

Also, the Psychedelic Review and the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs has complete documentation on the preperation of ayahuasca...and guess what....neither says that a DMT plant is nessessary.

So to sum up...DMT will make ayahuasca far more visionary. And ayahuasca is widely used as a visionary...sometimes with DMT, sometimes not.

thats what I was told by the shamans I spoke to in the amazon and in the lineage...Caapi alone would be for healing but not visions. I don't think too many shamans with knowledge and access to chacruna or a suitable substitute would make a brew with ONLY caapi with the intention of having visions.

Not to pick on you, but how many Shamans did you talk to? As DaveCommie pointed out...perhaps they were catering to your needs, figuring most westerners want a hallucinogenic brew and may be less concerned with other aspects.

But whatever the Shaman told you, he is not representative of all Shamans in the jungle. As I said earlier, there are as many ways to make ayahausca as there are people who make it. It is fully documented that ayahuasca is a visionary without DMT. ANd now I am done obsessively arguing this.

We are a hell of a ways off topic anyway as this thread is about Syrian Rue.

 

[Loki Laufey]

tHere is a report of 5-MeO-DMT taken with moclobemide.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=27722

From the accounts of this report this combination seems to be toxic as well.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Didn't sound fun, but I didn't read anything that spoke of it being toxic. No seizures, bleeding, amnesia, etc. Just sounded like a heavy trip. Vomiting is not unusual with 5-MeO-DMT, even when smoked.

 

[Loki Laufey]

they mention "feeling terribly ill". hard to say what they mean by it, but this is the combination to avoid imo.

 

[Ismene]

vine is ayahuasca

Isn't the tea called ayahuasca too tho? The same word seems to be used for both the vine and the DMT containing tea. Any idea why that is? Is it just a translation problem that never got sorted out?

How can ayahuasca not give an ayahuasca experience?


I think the confusion is in the terminology not the experience. The vine is almost never taken alone. Santo Daime, UDV, all consider DMT an essential component.

IN addition, check out some of the older publications on harmine and harmaline....both are known for inducing 'jaguars' and 'jungle-like' vision.

Would you really give someone harmine and expect them to have a psychecdelic experience tho? I've taken it plenty of times and never had the faintest visionary effects. Do you see visions when you take harmine?

Check out "Yage Letters" in which they make ayahuasca using NO DMT plants. "Notes of a Botanist on the Amazon and Andes" by Spruce


Yeah but we're talking William Burroughs - not the most reliable source - and Spruce was writing way back in 1851.

Villavicencio mentioned taking ayahuasca in 1858 and "flying to marvellous places", that doesn't sound like caapi alone.

And ayahuasca is widely used as a visionary...sometimes with DMT, sometimes not.


I disagree. Indians almost never use caapi by itself. And "ayahuasca" is used to refer to the DMT containing tea not just the caapi.

 

[Ismene]

I mean come on morninglory, if a newbie came on the board and asked "I've seen a shop selling "ayahuasca" containing just B. Caapi". Would you be happy telling him "That's fine, take it and you'll know what the ayahuasca experience is like"?

 

[swilow]

Well, he's telling the truth. Traditionally, ayauhusca is b. caapi- the shamans explain it thusly- the vine (B. Caapi) is a femaled deity which allows the mind to open up to an invisible landscape. Using Yage (DMT admixture) grants them visions, wheras just using the vine doesn't, though it still alows a deeply shamanic, entheogenic experience. Ayahuasca means vine of the dead, which means B. Caapi.

Ayahuasca has come to refer to any DMT drink combing tryptamine with beta-carboline for MAO-inhibition, though in truth thats a fallacy. Like calling peyote mescaline. Consider that without the MAOi of the Caapi, DMT is absolultely useless when eaten- thus, to native amazonians its is the Cappi vine that facilitaes the visions induced by yage/DMT.

Watch the movie "Shaman of the Amazon", by Dean Jeffries for first hand reporting.

 

[lazyvegan]

^^^ shamans of the amazon for those interested...

but i'm still wondering, can someone say if there is anything in any of these cases that rule out the possibility of something in their diet reacting with the MAOI? i mean both harmaline and 5meodmt (albeit less so) are maoi's, so any negative reaction would be enhanced, and it's pretty common foods/drinks that can cause this sort of thing.

i'm no doctor, but the symptoms described in the few reports on erowid sound similar to a maoi/diet reaction; hypertensive symptoms, blood pressure, even death...

Erowid has received several reports of very troubling physical reactions in people who have ingested 5-MeO-DMT with MAOI harmala-alkaloids. There appears to be the risk of severe hypertensive symptoms, overheating, serotonin syndrome, etc....He quickly became non-responsive and fell to the ground, began convulsing (myoclonic jerking)....He was found to have had a pulse of 180, blood pressure 200/125, and temperature 106.0 F

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt_health.shtml

tyramine reaction..

Tyramine is an amino acid which is found in various foods, and is an indirect sympathomimetic that can cause a hypertensive reaction in patients receiving MAOI therapy.... a patient may experience a severe occipital or temporal headache, diaphoresis, mydriasis, nuchal rigidity, palpitations, and the elevation of both diastolic and systolic blood pressure may ensue...On rare occasions, cardiac arrhythmias, cardiac failure, and intracerebral hemorrhage have developed in patients receiving MAOI therapy that did not observe dietary restrictions.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info2.shtml

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I mean come on morninglory, if a newbie came on the board and asked "I've seen a shop selling "ayahuasca" containing just B. Caapi". Would you be happy telling him "That's fine, take it and you'll know what the ayahuasca experience is like"?

I don't recommend anyone use drugs of any sort. If someone asked me, that is what I would tell them. I never needed to ask anyone anything...I always did my own research...and that is what I think is best for others. If a person were not sure if they wanted to take ayahuasca with a DMT-containing plant...or not...then in my opinion they should spend more time researching.

Isn't the tea called ayahuasca too tho? The same word seems to be used for both the vine and the DMT containing tea. Any idea why that is? Is it just a translation problem that never got sorted out?

Well there are actually over 40 accepted names for beverages prepared from B. Caapi. However, The name "Ayahuasca" comes from the Quechua words "aya", meaning "soul" and "huasca" meaning "vine".

That is very specific. This names a vine, not a beverage, a leaf, or anything else. There is no translation problem...the meaning is quite clear.

The DMT portion of ayahuasca goes by a specific name, either chacruna or chaliponga...depending on the plant.

I think the confusion is in the terminology not the experience. The vine is almost never taken alone. Santo Daime, UDV, all consider DMT an essential component.

Who is confused? The idea that DMT is a manditory part of ayahuasca is just not reflected reality, certainly not in the literature available. I understand most westerner's seeking a visionary experience will utalize DMT in their ayahuasca. No one disputes DMT makes for a more visionary experience. But ayahuasca is used for many reasons beyond its visionary cabilities, and DMT is not always added. It is absolutely misleading to say ayahuasca's primarly used as a visionary...it has far more medicinal uses than that. And Santo Daime and UDV are very new institutions. Regardless though, their aim may not be the same as what other Shamans use ayahuasca and you are wrong to assume they are the 'norm.'

Would you really give someone harmine and expect them to have a psychecdelic experience tho? I've taken it plenty of times and never had the faintest visionary effects. Do you see visions when you take harmine?

Harmine alone does not seem to have any visionary or psychedelic action. However, ayahuasca contains harmine as well as tetrahydroharmine, with lesser amounts of harmaline and up to a dozen other alkaloids. Just as the LA-111 does not account for all of the effects of morning glory, harmine does not account for all of the effects of ayahuasca.

It is interesting to note the book "The Healing Journey" which has an entire chapter on harmaline psychotherapy. While harmaline probably plays little role in the action of ayahuasca...it is still facinating that jaguars and "jungle imagary" were consistantly noted. Beta-carboline components are clearly major contributers to the 'content' of ayahuasca. When it was first discovered that plants containing DMT were added to ayahuasca, the reasoning was to "better and brighten the visions." That statement stipulates that ayahuasca has visionary actions independent of DMT. Why do you dispute this?

Yeah but we're talking William Burroughs - not the most reliable source - and Spruce was writing way back in 1851.

Yeah, but they are still first-hand accounts of ayahuasca being prepared....and they witnessed it being made without DMT...and there are numerous other accounts...clearly this shows that it is not rare to use ayahuasca without a DMT plant.

Indians almost never use caapi by itself. And "ayahuasca" is used to refer to the DMT containing tea not just the caapi.

Well guess what man, I've already given you many accounts of it being used without DMT. I'd like to know on who's authority you have to speak on behalf of most of the "Indians"? How do you know what they "all" do?

You should be aware of this...

Numerous types of ayahuasca vine are recognized by shamans and curanderos in the Peruvian Amazon. Most of these shamanic "species" are botanically indistinguishable from Banisteriopsis caapi but may have many local names according the lineage and purpose of the shamanic practitioner.

See Ayahuasca and Her Companion Plants.

The following list of names those most commonly reported in scores of interviews and apprenticeships of various durations with traditional vegetalistas, ayahuasqueros, and curanderos of other disciplines in Departamento Loreto, Peru from 1995 to present.

ayahuasca cielo or ayahuasca amarilla
~ heaven (sky) ayahuasca or yellow ayahuasca ~
This is the type of ayahuasca most commonly used in contemporary mestizo curanderismo in Amazonian Perú where it is widely cultivated. It is a relatively gentle but powerful healing plant capable of vivid and highly transformative visions.
Cielo Ayahuasca is considered to be the best type of ayahuasca for initiation.

ayahuasca trueno or ayahuasca negra
~ thunder ayahuasca or black ayahuasca ~
This type of ayahuasca provokes especially strong purge and physical shaking which can be overwhelming.
Ayahuasca trueno should be taken only by those experienced with the medicine.

ayahuasca india or ayahuasca negra
~ Indian ayahuasca or black ayahuasca ~
This type of ayahuasca is harvested exclusively from the 'monte'(old-growth unflooded white sand rainforest. It is not cultivated.
It is a powerful variety widely used by pre-columbian indigenous people.

ayahuasca blanca - white ayahuasca
This type of ayahuasca is used primarily in magic, both white (benevolent) and red ( = black or harmful)

ayahuasca colorada - red ayahuasca
This is a very strong shamanic medicine taken almost exclusively by shamans themselves to facilitate healing of others.

ayahuasca cascabel - rattle ayahuasca
This is an incredibly powerful strain which takes one completely out of body with extraordinary visions of a wild and untamed character. Cascabel is pure unadulturated jungle magic and perhaps the strongest of all "kinds" of ayahuasca.

The use of colors to describe types of ayahuasca is as often based on the nature and character of the visionary experiences as the physical color of the plant.

Why would there exist these different varieties of ayahuasca vine if the vine was nothing more than an activator for DMT? Here again we see reference to visionary properties of ayahuasca that are independent of any DMT content.

 

[swilow]

So to summarise- ayahuasca, when indigenous amazonians refer to it in a botanical sense, is B. Caapi. Chacruna, or yage (the DMT), is added to make the vine grant you visions. B.Caapi is a know anti-malarial (sp?) and intenstinal wormer, which it is used for as well.

DMT is not orally active without the Vine, whereas the Vine is psycho/physio active without DMT. That is why ayahuasca refers to B.caapi, because it is the active ingredient of their entheogenic drink.

Ayahuasca has come to mean, in drug circles, use of a MAOI with DMT.

 

[Ismene]

Well, he's telling the truth. Traditionally, ayauhusca is b. caapi- the shamans explain it thusly- the vine (B. Caapi) is a femaled deity which allows the mind to open up to an invisible landscape. Using Yage (DMT admixture) grants them visions, wheras just using the vine doesn't, though it still alows a deeply shamanic, entheogenic experience. Ayahuasca means vine of the dead, which means B. Caapi.

But as I've already explained ayahuasca is used to refer to the tea. Not just the vine. It's like someone handing you a coffee plant and calling it "cappucino".

 

[Ismene]

That is very specific. This names a vine, not a beverage, a leaf, or anything else

Well, specifically, it names a "vine of the dead" or a "vine of the spirits" not "a vine". A vine that has SOMETHING TO DO with the dead or the spirits. The trouble is beta-carbolines and harmine don't put you in touch with the dead. DMT however is renowned for this.

Like I said, "ayahuasca" is the term used for the DMT containing tea. I think "vine of the dead" is referring to the effects of caapi when it's mixed with DMT.

The DMT portion of ayahuasca goes by a specific name, either chacruna or chaliponga

True. But the TEA ITSELF is called ayahuasca.

As Ralph Metzner points out in his book "Ayahuasca" - "The term itself is misleading as caapi is only one of two essential components of the brew"

The idea that DMT is a manditory part of ayahuasca is just not reflected reality, certainly not in the literature available.

Which literature are you referring to? Here's Charles Grob from the book "Ayahuasca" - "Although some aboriginal tribes have traditions of using caapi solely, the predominant pattern of use has called for the addition of other plants".

And Santo Daime and UDV are very new institutions.

But based on very ancient traditions.

When it was first discovered that plants containing DMT were added to ayahuasca, the reasoning was to "better and brighten the visions." That statement stipulates that ayahuasca has visionary actions independent of DMT. Why do you dispute this?


Hang on a minute. Ayahuasca has been used with DMT plants for at least 5000-10,000 years. Who, or what, are you quoting when you say "We started adding DMT to improve the visions"?

Well guess what man, I've already given you many accounts of it being used without DMT. I'd like to know on who's authority you have to speak on behalf of most of the "Indians"? How do you know what they "all" do?


From these books by people who have researched and lived with ayahuasqueros for many years:

Ayahuasca - Ralph Metzner

Forest of Visions - Alex Polari De Alverga

The world is as you dream it - John Perkins

One River - Wade Davies

The New Purgatory - Jimmy Weiskopf

Why would there exist these different varieties of ayahuasca vine if the vine was nothing more than an activator for DMT? Here again we see reference to visionary properties of ayahuasca that are independent of any DMT content.

WHOA! You got that list from here right?

http://www.biopark.org/peru/huascaspecies.html

Which says The following list of names those most commonly reported in scores of interviews and apprenticeships of various durations with traditional vegetalistas, ayahuasqueros, and curanderos of other disciplines in Departamento Loreto, Peru from 1995 to present.

Are you claiming these ayahuasqueros are talking about using caapi alone when they describe these effects? Because I'd have to disagree with you. I think they're referring to the effects of the caapi TOGETHER with the DMT.

 

[Ismene]

So to summarise- ayahuasca, when indigenous amazonians refer to it in a botanical sense, is B. Caapi.

Yes, but don't confuse that to mean that ayahuasca - the tea - only consists of b.caapi.

 

[Ismene]

Chacruna, or yage (the DMT), is added to make the vine grant you visions.

Yage is the Tupi indian name for ayahuasca, not chacruna.

 

[swilow]

^^^Oh, okay. Cheers for clarifying

 

[egor]

Back to MGS's theory, enough wasted thread space bantering!!!!!!!
I am someone who is very interested in the idea it is somthing in the syrian rue that causes the toxicity with 5-meo-dmt, since I use the rue as my sole MAOI.
Has anyone found an account of rue causing toxic effects with n,nDMT, and not the 5-meo analog in an instance where dietary guidelines were followed ??

 

[iom]

I for one disagree. As I understand it, 5-MeO-DMT is a highly potent 5-HT agonist and not very selective unlike say DMT or psilocin. I'm willing to hypothesize that the 5-MeO substitution, in general, increases the potency of tryptamines at the expense of less selectivity. Perhaps MAOI + 5-MeO-DMT = serotonin syndrome.

Of course, I am rather inclined to believe this because of my own experience. One night at around 8pm or so, I consumed some banisteriopsis caapi and mimosa hostilis infusions on an empty stomach. I was previously experienced with this combination, in fact this combo yielded my own first and most intense trip. This time, I under-dosed the hostilis and experienced disappointingly mild effects. I was essentially baseline at midnight when I considered taking advantage of whatever MAO inhibition was still in effect by consuming another tryptamine. I researched the MAO+5-Meo-DMT combination and decided to try a very low dose of 5-MeO-DMT. At around 1am, I swallowed a capsule containing 5mg of 5-MeO-DMT with low expectations. Needless to say, I was in for a surprise. The onset occurred suddenly at T+1hour and I was quickly rocketed into a physiological nightmare that lasted 7 some hours. I experienced severe tremors (unlike those experienced in 100+ other trips),
extreme hot/cold flushes, and blood pressure issues. While I lacked the ability to monitor my blood pressure, I was unable to support myself on hands without extreme dizziness coupled with rapid loss of vision (e.g., blacking out).
The ego remained essentially intact, and the only visuals were extreme tracers. This was not an ego crises, this felt entirely physiological. I will probably never attempt this sort of combination again. I can certainly see how 30 instead of 5mg of 5-MeO-DMT could have been the end of me that night...

Of course there must be more to the story than this because Diplopterys cabrerana is very frequently utilized as an ayahuasca admixture, and presuming the above to be correct, one would expect toxicity to arise with this combination. Perhaps other compounds (such as DMT) in the plant prevent this crises from occurring? I'm not particularly interested in experimenting further, and given a future opportunity to take aya in a traditional setting, I may attempt to inquire (however rudely) as to whether or not cabrerana or other 5-MeO-DMT containing plants are being used in the brew.

I have recently suspected that I may be unusually sensitive to mushrooms and may experience a heavier body-load than most. Perhaps certain individuals such as myself are considerably more susceptible to the toxicity of this combination. Erowid contains plenty of positive reports involving Syrian Rue + 5-MeO-DMT as well as 5-MeO-DMT combined with other MAOIs. I would also point out that toxic reactions to 5-MeO-DMT when used alone appear to be rather common. I would advise extreme caution with this (and other 5-MeO) tryptamine(s).

 

[egor]

Are you considering reports of insane intensity and nausea as toxic reactions. Many people complain of toxicity when the effects get too strong for them to handle. I ahve found that most people who sample 5-meo-dmt get nausious on their first few attempts, but it goes away with experience.

Also, the only 5-meo tryptamine I have sampled( 5-meo-dmt, 5-meo-dipt, and 5-meo amt) that is more toxic feeling than the parent compound is a-o,dms which has maoi activity to explain some of the extreme level of side effects.