Possible Explaination Into Reports Of Toxicity With Oral 5-MeO-DMT/Peganum Harmala

[Morninggloryseed]

Greetings. First off, let us get the terminology correct. We have all heard of ayahuasca. But what is not ayahuasca?

* Peganum harmala is NOT ayahuasca.
* Taking DMT orally with an MAOI is not ayahuasca.

Ayahuasca refers to a brew made from the woody stem of Banisteriopsis caapi, and thus any brew that does not include this vine is not ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is a source of visionary indole alkaloids including harmine, tetrahydroharmine, and small amounts of harmaline.

Ayahuasca has a LONG history with numerous indigenous uses as a purgative, medicine, or a visionary. Some people add plants containing DMT and/or 5-MeO-DMT to increase its visionary potential. But contrary to what Ott and other Western contemporaries say...this admixtures are not necessary to experience visions from ayahuasca and many times are not used. Ayahuasca is independent of DMT, though it does often include it.

Peganum harmala (Syrian Rue, Esfand) also has a long history as a medicine and visionary in the Middle East and Persia (Iran). In modern times, it is used as a source of harmaline and harmine....often to orally activate DMT.

Pharmauasca is not ayahuasca, just as San Pedro is not Peyote. Two different parent plants, two different preperations, two different alkaloidal profiles, two different DRUGS!

Anyway, now that we have this settled, let us move on shall we? Great

In TIHKAL (book one, the part NOT online) Shulgin talks about some interesting quinazoline alkaloids found in Rue including vasicine (peganine), desoxypeganine (sans a HO), and a corresponding keto-peganine, vasicinone, and desoxyvasicinone.

These alkaloids apparently do everything, according to Shulgin. Some are anticholinergenics, some have uterotonic properties, some with abortifacient properties, and one is a bronchodilator.

I am wondering if it is one of these alkaloids that, when combined with 5-MeO-DMT, results in toxic effects.

Here is what I know...there are reports of toxicity with taking 5-MeO-DMT orally (with an MAOI) but I cannot find a single report that speaks of this toxicity in conjunction with Banisteriopsis caapi, or pure harmine or harmaline. All seem to involve just P. Harmala.

Since indigenous peoples in S. America have been using 5-MeO-DMT-containing plants with ayahuasca forever without issue, it is not unreasonable to assume that the 5-MeO-DMT being inherently toxic when taken orally is incorrect. Rather, when the MAOI is obtained from P. Harmala...toxicity is experienced.

What are your thoughts? I can find precious little on these other Rue alkaloids, other than the citations in TIHKAL so I don't think anyone will ever really know for sure. But it is something interesting to ponder on.

It is also a warning that P. Harmala is not interchangable with B. Caapi. And additional caution is warranted when using this plant. The quinazoline alkaloids are not soluble in water, so making a 'tea' from the seeds may be the best way to go.

 

[lazyvegan]

interesting theory for sure mgs, but i haven't really read anything about these recent toxcity reports though, so do you have a link? i couldn't find anything on erowid, and i'm just as curious as you.

but i do wonder if perhaps something in their diet reacted with the MAOI? i know you are aware there are many simple foods/drugs that can cause very toxic effects when taken in conjuntion with a MAOI, even such things as beer, cheese, wine, coffee, ect. so i was wondering if you have considered that?

p. harmala is also much more commonly used than caapi in recent times, so it's really no surprise that haramala might part of this equation, even if it weren't the culprit. historical records from amazonian shamans aren't so freely available. but i'd like to know more before rambling on.

 

[egor]

Excelent theory MGS, I have been searching for more info on many of the quinazolines you mentioned, but to no avail. This deserves some serious research from a clinical standpoint as many people( myself included) use the rue as their main source of mao inhibition, and if the toxicity is there with 5-meo-dmt, there is the possability the toxicity will cover many more tryps( al a psilocybin, etc.) and spill over into the phens also.

 

[Ismene]

Ayahuasca has a LONG history with numerous indigenous uses as a purgative, medicine, or a visionary. Some people add plants containing DMT and/or 5-MeO-DMT to increase its visionary potential. But contrary to what Ott and other Western contemporaries say...this admixtures are not necessary to experience visions from ayahuasca and many times are not used. Ayahuasca is independent of DMT, though it does often include it.


Has this been confirmed? I know there are rumours of tribes who used the caapi vine by itself but no-one has ever confirmed it. Every tribe that's ever had any contact with a westerner has always used the DMT leaf and understood it was the leaf that brought the visions, not the caapi.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Yeah, that is well confirmed. There is years and years of documentation regarding ayahuasca being used without a DMT-containing plant. I figured that was common knowledge.

It does not have the visionary strength of a DMT-containing ayahuasca brew...but it is certainly still a visonary in and of itself.

 

[Ismene]

Surely the predominant pattern of use is caapi with a vision producing DMT component?

While you may get some kind of experience from harmaline/harmine I certainly wouldn't even begin to compare it with a true ayahuasca experience containing DMT.

Harmine/harmaline may give you the sense of "I think something might be happening but then again...it might not" but DMT simply comes in and blows your fucking head clean off.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

>Surely the predominant pattern of use is caapi
>with a vision producing DMT component?

I don't think anyone knows that, as there are as many ways to prepare ayahuasca as there are people who prepare it.

It is probably safe to say that when seeking visions- DMT is added. But remember, ayahuasca has far more uses than just as a visionary. And in these cases, DMT is probably not added.

 

[BreakingSet]

DMT and 5meoDMT containing plants also contain other alkaloids. So ingesting an extraction or a synth'ed product would metabolize differently. I could not say empirically what would cause this toxic reaction you mention but I am fairly certain that someone who takes a perscribed MAOi and pure(ish) dmt or 5meoDMT is going to have a marked difference to their experience as compared to someone who drank real jungle ayauasca.

This is the very reason why I will not take vitamin and mineral suppliments; there is something missing.

 

[swilow]

I thought pharmahuasca was actually Moclobemide and DMT, or any synthetic MAOi with DMT.

P. Harmala/ other natural MAO and DMT mixes would be referred to as ayahuasca analogues.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

^^^^^^^^

That is correct.

 

[swilow]

Peganum harmala (Syrian Rue, Esfand) also has a long history as a medicine and visionary in the Middle East and Persia (Iran). In modern times, it is used as a source of harmaline and harmine....often to orally activate DMT. This brew is known as 'pharmauasca.'

Um, this doesn't quite match up then, Rue and DMT is an aya analogue- you may wanna edit it. Unless your saying that Moclobemide is sourced from rue. Then I'll be quiet.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Done

 

[butane]

Not too long ago, I met the person who found and saved me during my P. Harmala + 5-MeO-DMT overdose I wrote about here a while back. While the hospital didn't tell me much about what happened, he was able to. Apparently, one moment I would be looking OK, but then, sporadically, I would start going into seizures, clenching up into the fetal position with an expression of pain. Then, just as abruptly as it started, it would stop. He also said that my lips were beginning to turn blue. I'm not sure what these symptoms mean, but perhaps they can be of some help?

 

[nuke]

Not too long ago, I met the person who found and saved me during my P. Harmala + 5-MeO-DMT overdose I wrote about here a while back. While the hospital didn't tell me much about what happened, he was able to. Apparently, one moment I would be looking OK, but then, sporadically, I would start going into seizures, clenching up into the fetal position with an expression of pain. Then, just as abruptly as it started, it would stop. He also said that my lips were beginning to turn blue. I'm not sure what these symptoms mean, but perhaps they can be of some help?

Sounds like very bad vasocontriction, actually, a lot like really high dose mushrooms.

There's a reported 5-meo-dmt 'ayahuasca' death here. The harmala alkaloids present seem to be consistent with ratios found in B. Caapi, but it might be rue too.

also: Toxicity of P. Harmala: Review and Case Report
http://ijpt.iums.ac.ir/v1n1/Mahmoudian.pdf

 

[swilow]

^^Fuck, that would be a crap way to clock off.....tripping to death. Hmm, not me thing. MGS, maybe you should still mention what pharmahausca actually is?

 

[davesoviet]

Surely the predominant pattern of use is caapi with a vision producing DMT component?

While you may get some kind of experience from harmaline/harmine I certainly wouldn't even begin to compare it with a true ayahuasca experience containing DMT.

Now, I may be off because so much time has lapsed since I thouroughly researched ayahuasca (I haven't been particularly interested since around late 2000 or early 2001). However, I clearly recall not wanting to try a Banisteriopsis caapi brew that contained DMT and/or 5-MeO-DMT. And I also recall the Banisteriopsis caapi alone producing a mild body high along with hallucinations, mild as they may be, that generally resulted in seeing jaguars and other jungle animals. Finally, I can vaguely recall reading a report where someone used Banisteriopsis caapi alone and that it was somewhat different from ingesting Peganum harmala seeds... not to mention that the user stated the experience to be mildly sedating and mildly visual, yet that they still saw jaguars when they closed their eyes.

Ayahuasca itself translates to "vine of the soul" in the Quechua language. Which makes me assume that the shamans believe that it's Banisteriopsis caapi which is the magical component of the brew and that the other plants simply enhance it. Especially when you consider that the brew is still refered to as ayahuasca regardless of whether or not any other hallucinogenic plant materials are added to it.

So I tend to believe that the mild effects of Banisteriopsis caapi alone ARE the true ayahuasca experience. And that adding plant materials that contain DMT and/or 5-MeO-DMT are simply taking that experience further, but that taking it further is not a neccessity to get whatever it is the shamans are looking for, rather than blowing their minds. Perhaps it is the vibe that the vine gives, or that it is initially what brings on visions of jaguars that is really the point and that they believe it's the DMT and 5-MeO-DMT that enhance the vine, not the other way around.

 

[davesoviet]

DMT and 5meoDMT containing plants also contain other alkaloids. So ingesting an extraction or a synth'ed product would metabolize differently. I could not say empirically what would cause this toxic reaction you mention but I am fairly certain that someone who takes a perscribed MAOi and pure(ish) dmt or 5meoDMT is going to have a marked difference to their experience as compared to someone who drank real jungle ayauasca.

I definitely believe different ayahuasca and pharmahuasca concoctions will produce markedly different effects because of the ratios of the MAOI versus DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, not to mention all of the other alkaloids which are generally overlooked because they are in smaller concentrations, not well known or researched, or even that some of the other alkaloids may suprisingly have a strong influence on the feel of the experience.

Just take something like mushrooms, for example. Different batches and strains and species produce noticeably different effects. And despite the chemical similarities, drugs like 4-HO-MiPT, 4-AcO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, 4-AcO-DiPT and even 4-AcO-DMT are similar but noticeably different from ingesting psilocybe mushrooms, despite 4-HO-DMT and 4-OPO-DMT being the primary alkaloids and being so similar to the other analogs. Even psilocyn and psilocybin alone are supposedly noticeably different in their effects than ingesting raw psilocybe mushrooms.

This is the very reason why I will not take vitamin and mineral suppliments; there is something missing.

Well, it seems to be a fact that taking vitamin and mineral supplements is no substitute than acquiring the same vitamins and minerals from natural sources. However, if you're not getting enough vitamins and minerals in the first place, it's probably still going to be benefitial to some worthwhil degree to take supplements. I've found taking two Centrum vitamins a day to have a noticeably positive effect on my mood and overall mental health. It's not a miracle cure, but for the longest time I think it was more benefitial than taking anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medication.

 

[davesoviet]

I'm not sure what these symptoms mean, but perhaps they can be of some help?

Does anyone know if it's possible that an alkaloid in Peganum harmala may cause some of the 5-MeO-DMT or a byproduct there of to be metabolized or converted into 5-HO-DMT?

 

[Ismene]

Ayahuasca itself translates to "vine of the soul" in the Quechua language. Which makes me assume that the shamans believe that it's Banisteriopsis caapi which is the magical component of the brew and that the other plants simply enhance it. Especially when you consider that the brew is still refered to as ayahuasca regardless of whether or not any other hallucinogenic plant materials are added to it.

So I tend to believe that the mild effects of Banisteriopsis caapi alone ARE the true ayahuasca experience. And that adding plant materials that contain DMT and/or 5-MeO-DMT are simply taking that experience further, but that taking it further is not a neccessity to get whatever it is the shamans are looking for, rather than blowing their minds. Perhaps it is the vibe that the vine gives, or that it is initially what brings on visions of jaguars that is really the point and that they believe it's the DMT and 5-MeO-DMT that enhance the vine, not the other way around.

I don't think caapi alone will make you see jaguars unless you are incredibly suggestible. If you look at the paintings in "Ayahuasca Visions, The Religious Iconography of a Peruvian Shaman" you are looking directly at the DMT experience. No question about it. There's no way on earth anyone is going to paint things like that after taking caapi by itself.

I don't believe caapi alone will give anyone an experience even remotely similar to a true ayahuasca experience. Certainly all the religions based on ayahuasca use the DMT leaf as a fundamental component. The indians are well aware that the leaf is responsible for the visions.

 

[e1evene1even]

"the vine provides the strength, the chacruna provides the vision"

thats what I was told by the shamans I spoke to in the amazon and in the lineage they are from, chacruna is almost always used. Caapi alone would be for healing but not visions. Caapi alone CAN definitely provide visions, but they do not have the bright colors of the brew when chacruna is added and are obviously less intense. I don't think too many shamans with knowledge and access to chacruna or a suitable substitute would make a brew with ONLY caapi with the intention of having visions.

There are usually many admixture plants added. I believe the brew I drank had around 10 admixture plants but I don't have the names in front of me at the moment. Even though chacruna is not the most potent DMT containing plant in the amazon it is unique in that DMT is almost the sole alkaloid it contains. If I remember correctly it has very little if any 5-MeO-DMT and is considered more desirable than Chaliponga at least in the part of Peru I was in.