That's really cool. I super want to try EPT, but it'll be a while. I'd love to test it out.
Also tempting to imagine the tricyclic tryptamine version of EPT, one step closer to the lysergamide side.
Definitely recommend it when you get the chance.
It's certainly very quickly becoming one of my favorites, though I'm still very early on in experimentation with it and there's no telling what'll happen.
The tricyclic version definitely would be interesting to see too, though I'm not aware of too many amazing results with that group of indoles yet.... Has anything good been said of RU-28306 or NDTDI yet?
I agree with the sentiment that ETH-LAD feels like a phenethylamine. It's not really stimulating and manic like LSD or AL-LAD. A lot of psychedelics give me a feeling that there is a lot going on around me, but ETH-LAD is chilled out like mescaline. I see a lot of people talk about how crazy it can get, but I still haven't taken more than 150ug, which feels pretty tame, yet extremely visual. At some point I'll try 225ug.
Good to see more support for this, it definitely makes me a lot more excited to try it.
Though yeah, I have heard of some pretty intense stuff with higher doses, but it seems like even then people often describe it as somehow still pretty clearheaded for what it is....
Kaleida, as much as I like reading about your descriptions and comparisons of different drugs, I'm skeptical of your theory about the lysergamides having parallels with their tryptamine counterparts. I haven't really noticed a connection between MPT and LSD or EPT and ETH-LAD, and the descriptions of PRO-LAD I've read certainly don't sound anything like DPT. I don't think science supports that theory either. I kind of think you're trying too hard to find patterns. It would be a really interesting experiment to give a variety of psychedelics to someone with no knowledge or experience and have them try to categorize them.
Well, I certainly can't speak for your experiences, but I do definitely do notice very significant similarities between MPT and LSD as well as 4-HO-MPT and between EPT, ETH-LAD, and 4-HO-EPT myself, things that are consistently repeatable and which I was not expecting before first going into the experiences. For one, LSD for me is basically the most mentally disorienting psychedelic, 4-HO-MPT basically my most mentally disorienting of the 4-substituted tryptamines, and MPT is my most mentally disorienting of the base tryptamines, whereas ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT for me are each basically the least mentally disorienting of their respective categories. Second, likewise, LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT for me all have the typical psychedelic comeup anxiety, whereas aside from very high doses of 4-HO-EPT it, ETH-LAD, and EPT were all far smoother than most of other indoles for me, basically just like gently coming up into tripping territory. Third, also to go along with that, LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT all have a lot of manic stimulation for me throughout, so much so that I've compared them to stimulants regularly and MPT even raises my heart rate which is unusual for me with psychedelics, but ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT for me all had noticeably dominant sedative body feelings that I regularly compare to narcotics, and is particularly noticeable at the beginning as a heavy body feeling is typically what replaces that usual comeup energy. Fourth, in addition to this I actually also find ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT to have somewhat of a delayed comeup compared to LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT, every one of them I noted my first time took longer to come up than usual for this class whereas the methyls were always quicker and more typical. Fifth, LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT consistently so far have produced for me human visionary imagery that contains a small number of inhabitants, like hallucinating a few people in the room with me or walking around me on LSD or a few characters running through a closed eye visionary scene on 4-HO-MPT or MPT, whereas ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT all produce human visionary imagery that for me is completely packed to the brim with characters like a giant stadium, such as a massive, waving ocean extending far back into the horizon completely filled with cosmic ravers on ETH-LAD, the largest spinning flower mandala pattern I have ever seen with thousands of petals each comprised of a moaning face on 4-HO-EPT, or less intense than those but still quite detailed cascading images of erotic entities reaching out to me or stretching their arms out and heads back circling large 3D patterns on EPT. However, sixth, all of these amazing ethyl visions happened with eyes closed, and despite having this extra intense closed eye visual power for me, ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT all very notable have less prevalent and grayer or more smokey open eye visual effects for that same level of intensity than LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT, which all put a lot of focus on that classical neon rainbow patterns and distortions style even at regular doses. Finally, seventh, I also so far have the feeling that ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT all last slightly shorter than LSD, 4-HO-MPT, on MPT on average.
This is not to say that there aren't meaningful differences as well. For instance, despite being so clearheaded in its headspace overall, when it is brought out strongly I actually find 4-HO-EPT to be the most selectively mental psychedelic I've ever taken, because even though its visuals are so complex they're really weak in any non-meditative setting and practically never develop above the transparent smokey stuff for me with eyes open, so it basically feels like just a clearheaded mental trip overall, whereas EPT of course as I was saying before I find to be the gentlest of all psychedelics on the mind and completely grounded and lucid while producing super powerful hallucinations and ETH-LAD is pretty close to it in my one experience so far, so that basically puts these molecules on completely opposite ends of the scale in their final presentation no matter how many similarities they have. And I do also find that despite EPT and ETH-LAD both being incredibly powerful hallucinogens and much more prominent than 4-HO-EPT by dose, EPT seems to use a lot more of the typical mushroom or DMT style effects than ETH-LAD does which tends to borrow a lot more from the LSD-like or sort of dissociative realm for me, so the ultimate hallucinogenic effect of these psychedelics still comes off as quite unique for me regardless of the number of overlaps, and at least to me this difference can be far more important to defining a psychedelic experience overall than things such as the ratios of stimulation to sedation or how long it takes to come up, and they'll also each combine with those properties in unique ways. On the other hand, within the methyls LSD and 4-HO-MPT are both similarly mental for me but LSD slightly more so so the interrelationships aren't even quite the same as the ethyls, but nonetheless all of the methyls manage to be super visual for me at high but still regular doses, and they actually do have many superficial similarities for me as well such as tendency to skew towards the blue, purple, pink, and white end of the psychedelic spectrum and yet still throw in things like reds as part of bold geometric patterns, humanoid visuals made of 3D wireframe designs, but overall the style of the trip I would say aside from feeling superficially alike LSD for me with MPT felt a lot more like psilocin and 4-HO-MPT was more comparable to 4-HO-MET. So, the point is, it's not that I don't think that these molecules are quite unique and non-interchangeable overall, I just do also think there are quite significant similarities between them as well, too many for myself to ignore, and I have spoken to at least a few other people who have agreed with some of my observations.... I've seen enough to make me believe that it's a worthwhile theory anyway.
Well, my first question would have to be: do you have some science to show me which is explicitly against it? I have had these ideas in mind for quite some time now and have done a lot of research related to them, and personally I do believe that there is a good amount of scientific evidence to support a possible link between the pharmacology of these molecules. One idea that I personally think could be particularly relevant relates to 5-HT1A receptor structure-activity relationships.... It's build around the same concept that goes into the workings of 8-OH-DPAT, the aminotetralin with well known 5-HT1A agonist activity used in a lot of scientific studies.
As you can see, the receptor can handle the molecule being extended out in such a way that moves it one step closer to the tryptamines and makes it more analogous to lysergamides as well, as another well known research 5-HT1A agonist is Bay R 1531.
Notably, that one also methylates the hydroxy, which is significant because it turns it into a direct analogue of 5-MeO-DPT. That is important, because first of all as common drug sense tells us 5-methoxy tryptamines would probably be more likely to have 5-HT1A agonist activity and also it helps draw a direct comparison between the hydroxy of 8-OH-DPAT and that of serotonin, and second, I am actually also aware of data such as from the
Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome receptor binding table which shows DPT as having particularly high 5-HT1A relative to 5-HT2A. Interestingly, while I unfortunately do not know the source of this information, I have also come across
this binding data table, which while it must be treated cautiously given the unknown source, also shows that both ETH-LAD and AL-LAD have increased 5-HT1A receptor potency compared to LSD both just in general and even more significantly with respect to 5-HT2A, and there is also
this study on some DALTs which suggests that these molecules like DPT and these lysergamides may have particularly high 5-HT1A activity relative to 5-HT2A, which personally caused me to wonder if AL-LAD and the DALTs shared this relationship via that N-allyl paired with the extra bulky lysergamide backbone as the other part of the tail by being analogous to DPT and 8-OH-DPAT, and if the relationship between AL-LAD, ETH-LAD, and LSD also might suggest that the step between methyl and ethyl could be a significant point at which a lot of 5-HT1A activity is added. While it's been a while since I did all this and it'd probably take me some time to drag up these studies again, that prompted me to do a lot of researching into the aminotetralins, and I found first of all that there are many analogues made in search of new scientific 5-HT1A agonists that show that you can extend one of the propyls of 8-OH-DPAT further like a lysergamide backbone would be and still retain the high affinity, and I was even able to find one study that showed that one of these bulky substitutions combined with the typical propyl or an ethyl had that high affinity but with a methyl had a significant reduction, so I felt that that was a good sign as far as that theory goes.
My thought is, if this relationship that applies to lysergamides also applies to aminotetralins and is connected to the activity of DPT, then theoretically it could also apply back to EPT and MPT and to their 4-substituted derivatives, in other words meaning that theoretically EPT and 4-HO-EPT could also have higher 5-HT1A activity relative to MPT and 4-HO-MPT just like ETH-LAD compared to LSD. Interestingly, the relationship between 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors is known to be quite complex, and in some areas of the brain the two receptors are known to have a directly competitive relationship. It is said that 5-HT1A agonism can reduce some of the psychological and hallucinogenic effects of 5-HT2A agonism, and simply in itself 5-HT1A agonism is also known to have anxiolytic, analgesic, and antipsychotic effects. Personally, I think this could be an absolutely perfect explanation then for why ETH-LAD, 4-HO-EPT, and EPT for me all have reduced head trips, less intense open eyes visuals, no come up anxiety, more narcotic effects compared to the same level of stimulation, and perhaps also slower comeups maybe reflecting conflicting effects?, compared to LSD, 4-HO-MPT, and MPT. On the other hand, it's worth noting that 5-HT1A agonism can also enhance 5-HT2A in some ways, such as when it blocks GABA release on to some of the same pyramidal neurons that 5-HT2A receptors stimulate, and there is the question of the far more intense closed eye visuals for me.... About that, what I will say for now is that, while I haven't yet had the opportunity to try 5-MeO-DMT, I have some suspicion that this may relate to how its very high 5-HT1A agonism properties could give it more of that typical near-death experience feeling, and also why things like DPT are better known than many other psychedelics for becoming that intense and sort of more alike that overall in higher doses. The way that my closed eye visionary hallucinations work generally tends to follow the same sorts of themes that you see or hear about in various religious or spiritual settings, such as when it's said that "the hand of God reached out to me" to show them a vision or the thousand arms of
Avalokitesvara reaching out to rescue you from samsara, and when pushed to that visionary point also tend to involve things like demon-style entities around skull-covered temples or naked humans with flaming wings and other such things that could be construed as religious-type imagery. On the other hand, 5-MeO-DMT being generally noted for lacking in significant visual effects and also being more heavily dissociating in style would also make it alike 4-HO-EPT for me, which again as I said is my most selectively mental psychedelic so far.
So, those are just my thoughts on that.... I do think there is both scientific and anecdotal evidence to support a relationship between them personally, though again I also still think they are all unique psychedelics ultimately just as any other nonetheless, so I'm really not surprised that some people may feel the similarities more strongly and others may not, as these things are simply that complex and variable. And it would be interesting to do that study, probably wouldn't be overly hard to find a volunteer lol.
And thanks for the compliment by the way, I'm glad that you enjoy my thoughts even if you disagree with some of them.
I find your descriptions very insightful and entertaining as well.
I find ETH-LAD chill like mescaline too, it reminded me of mescaline a lot when I took it the first time (which was my highest dose, 300ug). It was intense in a way but I felt utterly in control of myself. The visuals were out of control, but I felt very serene and comfortable.
Awesome.
Man, I
really want to do ETH-LAD again now, and mescaline at all for that matter....
I finally got aound to trying 4 aco dpt at 50mg sniffed. I actually did it twice, about a week apart. I really dont remember shit though, I think I was using too much O PCE. I looked at some notes I wrote, and that seemed to bring back more memories. I think I pretty much blacked out both times lying in bed...
I remember it being kinda like... DPT light. Same type of character and feel, just not as intense as 50mg DPT plugged would be. I think I actually dosed 20mg 2c-d the second time, Id have too look and check.
DPT and 4 aco dpt w/ 2c-c/d for next time sounds good. I have stopped tripping so much. I dont really feel the pull, and been kinda depressed for... Forever?
Neti pot before/after insulfating anything is what I usually do. Helps a lot.
Thanks for the notes on the 4-AcO-DPT.
I'm curious, when you say DPT light, do you mean that it was lighter in every way, or was it like specifically less intense feeling of a mental trip but similarly hallucinogenic, or anything like that?
Sorry you've been feeling depressed, but I hope it doesn't last too much longer.
