☮ Social ☮ PD Social Distancing Tripping Thread: Viruses Can't Penetrate Hyperspace

[Kaleida]

Personally, I have not yet felt that I would be able to really distinguish between the 4-HO and 4-AcO tryptamines, the synthetic pairs I've tried being the METs, and DETs. However, I did find this interesting paper recently....

Oral diacetylmorphine (heroin) yields greater morphine bioavailability than oral morphine: bioavailability related to dosage and prior opioid exposure

They claim here that "even high doses of oral diacetylmorphine are completely converted to morphine presystemically", but, despite that, 'morphine influx into systemic circulation is more rapid after oral diacetylmorphine than after oral morphine, resulting in earlier and more than double maximal concentrations", along with other fun tidbits. This suggests to me that, even if they are just prodrugs, it doesn't mean they necessarily work exactly the same way.... If the psilocin created by 4-AcO-DMT got into your system faster than regular psilocin ever could, wouldn't you expect it to feel just a bit more intense, and maybe alike smoked DMT than it normally is as people like to say?

That's why I'm currently trying to reserve much judgment until I have more experience with them.... I could certainly see there being at least some real difference.

 

[Xorkoth]

I find most of the pairs of them to be quite similar, with the AcOs being more smooth and dreamy, and the HOs being sharper and more confronting, but not sure if I could distinguish in a blind test. However, 4-HO-DMT (I have had pure synthetic) and 4-AcO-DMT feel very different to me in the first stages and I am confident I could distinguish them every time. 4-AcO-DMT has a feeling exactly like if you could orally smoke DMT for me, the visuals are like it, the high-frequency buzzing, the not totally threatening but kinda threatening disorientation. Whereas 4-HO-DMT is more akin to mushrooms (but definitely not the same). Interestingly, the second stages of them are basically identical. I definitely believe it boils down to individual chemistry, it's about how fast it reaches the brain and it in what form. One of two things seems to be happening IMO, either the rapidness (or slowness) and concentration of the hydroxy is happening at a rate set by metabolic factors, and the acetoxy form is not crossing the BBB, or the individual rate at converting the acetoxy to the hydroxy varies, allowing more of the acetoxy ester to cross the BBB unchanged. I know that for some people, 4-HO-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT seems basically exactly the same, but is persistently not my experience that they are.

 

[perpetualdawn]

When I've tried 4-AcO-DMT I really felt like it was like n,n-DMT, but with a far, far more stretched out effect, and much much less acute peak (vs. vaped DMT) - but the funny thing is I've never tried DMT to actually know that. My intuition was that it's the same character as n,n-DMT, but spread out over a much longer timeframe. It really did feel distinct from mushrooms to me - even more sedentary (people say sedate, but I find it just more immobilizing/still) and less convoluted, random and bumpy.

I've probably said this before on the forum but a social thread seems like an ok place to be repetitive...

I wonder how 4-AcO-DMT compares to ayahuasca. I've heard that in ayahuasca that the MAOI contributes a lot to the character of the trip, it's not simply making the n,n-DMT orally available.

 

[Solipsis]

Absorption / kinetics can make a difference and for these esters that is a major thing. Heroin gets through the BBB more easily due to the shielding of the polar groups so good for BA, but indeed orally it is rapidly converted to morphine so you only get better absorption.

Tryptamines are already well absorbed so not too much to gain there (maybe under certain circumstances like stomach contents or other factors there could be a bit of difference)... 4-AcO trypts should pass the BBB well, but 4-HO trypts are zwitterions giving those good BA too. Again not so much gained, and for any potential difference you would need to take parenteral ROA which most don't do. The ester is cleaved readily... the intact ester could have a better, equal, or worse psychedelic pharmadynamics or none relevant at all... There doesn't seem anything to indicate that it is better and I don't think it would easily improve the H-bond donor the 4-HO group oxygen is (I guess the reason why 4-methyl tryptamines aren't really worth much).

It might be that the longer esters take a while to come off making them less potent but giving them smoother kinetics that stretch the effect out a bit, whereas rapidly absorbed psilocin hits like a mofo and has a much steeper attack.

I think in essence a lot of the effects of DMT analogues are DMT-like but kinetics may play a big role in how compressed that effect is... whether it is a massive bang like a vaped DMT flash, or stretched out over time. Hard hitters are more visual and overwhelming but tell the story so fast that it is hard to integrate. Slower substances take their time but can feel a lot more tame, even though secretly you might be having a deep trip from sustained spiritual type effects (I highly suspect 5-HT1A when added to 5-HT2A to play a big role in that and think that 5-HT1A may be therapeutic in psychiatric terms in general).

Yeah 4-AcO-DMT feels like stretched out DMT to me too, but actually pure psilocin also feels like DMT but somewhere in the middle between 4-AcO-DMT and DMT in terms of dilation/compression of effect. IMO other alkaloids in mushrooms, while not all that interesting on their own (from the sounds of them), may have a serious impact on the effects because of enzyme competition (competitive inhibition) for example. So perhaps like adding a very mild MAOI to psilocin, which by the way I tried (psilohuasca with syrian rue) and that feels to me like it's crazier, more shamanic/spiritual and more disinhibited (unhinged and unhindered), which perhaps not coincidentally is what mushrooms feel like to me anyway compared to synthetic tryptamines.

Someone should take a synthetic tryptamine and also take a bunch of lesser tryptamines just as competitive inhibitors like NMT / baeocystin etc should be... and describe that.

So @ esters and kinetics: it's complex and can vary on factors like how you take it. I think there can be a difference but it is rather minor and usually overlooked or unnoticeable, but the limited reports from a 4-PropO trypt do seem to suggest that kinetics can really be a factor in making the same pharmacodynamics feel different.

How different can some XR formulations feel from their IR version, how would you describe that difference? How many people find that difference in some ways insignificant?

There is of course a difference in stability and potency between 4-AcO and 4-HO trypts, fumarates can also be superior.. I'd weigh in those factors with the price when choosing. 4-HO trypts can be mighty stable by the way, but they should be pure and kept under proper conditions, that is often the key to making lesser stability sort of irrelevant.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Slower substances take their time but can feel a lot more tame, even though secretly you might be having a deep trip from sustained spiritual type effects (I highly suspect 5-HT1A when added to 5-HT2A to play a big role in that and think that 5-HT1A may be therapeutic in psychiatric terms in general).

I suspect this also. 5-MeO-DMT seems to hit hard on 5-HT1A and not so much on 5-HT2A, and it fairly reliably produces deep "spiritual" trips, without much psychedelia. On the other extreme the NBOMes are are full potent agonists on the 5ht2A receptor, but AFAIK not so much on the 5ht2B receptor, and are typically said to produce "shallow" visual candy trips. Then there's promiscuous LSD, which tends to produce psychedelia along with these deep meaningful trips..

 

[Cyanoide]

Thanks for all the replies, greatly appreciated.

So we basically all agree that the differences between axetocys and hydroxys are minor? Some qualitative differences, but not so much as to call them completely different?

I've never tried Ayahuasca nor Pharmahuasca, which definitely are on my list. Some report that 4-AcO-DMT is visually a bit closer to Ayahuasca than mushrooms. Though, the visual part is secondary for me when tripping, I seek deep introspective experiences or trips which allow me to deeply connect to nature and my surroundings. The visual part is a kind of bonus.

I'm repeating myself here but my last mushroom trip was so close to 4-AcO-DMT, that in a blind test I wouldn't have been able to say which one I was tripping on. Okay, besides some minor nausea I felt on the shrooms. Are different strains of mushrooms different? I took Golden Teacher mushrooms. There are plenty of different mushrooms, which differ in content of psilocybin, so logically they must differ from each other in some way? I now have Psilocybin Cubensis Ecuador, and it will be interesting to see it they differ from Golden Teacher. Both are strains of Psilocube Cubensis. Psilocybe semilanceata grows naturally here, but are not so easy to find.

 

[perpetualdawn]

I've always presumed that 95% + of the differences between magic mushroom strains just boil down to potency. I don't think there's much if any *real* differences between them once you compensate for potency. But I'm open to being wrong about this, there's definitely the possibility for interactions and "entourage effects" from all of the millions of chemicals that these little chemical factories produce.

I remember a cyanescens (sic?) strain being particularly potent

 

[Cyanoide]

I've always presumed that 95% + of the differences between magic mushroom strains just boil down to potency. I don't think there's much if any *real* differences between them once you compensate for potency. But I'm open to being wrong about this, there's definitely the possibility for interactions and "entourage effects" from all of the millions of chemicals that these little chemical factories produce.

I remember a cyanescens (sic?) strain being particularly potent

Psilocybe azurenscens seems to have the highest content of psilocybin. I have also thought Psilocybe cyanescens to be a particularly potent strain.

https://erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info4.shtml

Interestingly, Psilocybe semilanceata which grows here naturally, seems to have one of the highest psilocybin content of all mushrooms. Maybe I need to do some hunting around golf fields this summer

Anyway I just quoted this from Erowid:

SPECIES % PSILOCYBIN % PSILOCIN % BAEOCYSTIN REFERENCE
P. azurenscens 1.78 .38 .35 Stamets and Gartz 1995
P. bohemica 1.34 .11 .02 Gartz and Muller 1989; Gartz (1994)
P. semilanceata .98 .02 .36 Gartz 1994
P. baeocystis .85 .59 .10 Repke et al. 1977; Beug and Bigwood 1982(b)
P. cyanescens .85 .36 .03 Stijve and Kuyper 1985; Repke et al. 1977
P. tampanensis .68 .32 n/a Gartz 1994
P. cubensis .63 .60 .025 Gartz 1994; Stijve and de Meijer 1993
P. weilii .61 .27 .05
P. hoogshagenii .60 .10 n/a Heim and Hofmann 1958
P. stuntzii .36 .12 .02 Beug and Bigwood 1982(b); Repke et al. 1977
P. cyanofibrillosa .21 .04 n/a Stamets et al. 1980
P. liniformans .16 n/d .005 Stijve and Kuyper

 

[Cyanoide]

Can't the difference between different mushrooms also be due to the fact that they contain looots of differenet alkaloids?

Also, pardon me for not being a chemist, why is Erowid listing the content of psilocybin and psilocin separately, as psilocybin converts to psilocin? Isn't 4-PO-DMT (psilocybin) a prodrug to 4-HO-DMT (psilocin)?

 

[perpetualdawn]

Yes 4-PO-DMT is supposed to be a prodrug for 4-HO-DMT, but then again 4-AcO-DMT is supposed to be a prodrug for 4-HO-DMT, and there seems to be pretty good concensus that it's a different beast from 4-HO-DMT. Sometimes these prodrugs might have a different feel from the drug they convert into, and it might be for different reasons, or combinations of reasons:

1) There could be a delay in the rate the prodrug gets metabolized into the drug. So:

1a) If the prodrug itself is completely inactive, this will tend to smooth out the course of action of the drug as it becomes an "extended release" effect, making it come on slower and building up more gradually.​

1b) If the prodrug itself is active, it might have a different effect from the drug, so during the phase before it is converted into the drug, it might be having a different effect.​

2) The prodrug might have a different ability to be absorbed or cross the blood-brain barrier (like heroin, which is a prodrug for morphine AFAIK).

3) hmm anything else?

I forgot about Baeocystin. It would be interesting to try that on it's own, see how it compares to 4-HO-DMT. Maybe that accounts for a lot of the claimed differences between mushrooms, and that would mean what I said about the differences being down to potency is untrue.

 

[Cyanoide]

Yes 4-PO-DMT is supposed to be a prodrug for 4-HO-DMT, but then again 4-AcO-DMT is supposed to be a prodrug for 4-HO-DMT, and there seems to be pretty good concensus that it's a different beast from 4-HO-DMT. Sometimes
I forgot about Baeocystin. It would be interesting to try that on it's own, see how it compares to 4-HO-DMT. Maybe that accounts for a lot of the claimed differences between mushrooms, and that would mean what I said about the differences being down to potency is untrue.

Wait, what? I'm making a complete fool of myself, because mushrooms are maybe the hardest bastard to understand. Besides 4-PO-DMT converting to 4-HO-DMT, we have Baeocystin that converts into 4-HO-NMT? Would this explain the qualitative difference between mushrooms and other 4-subbed tryptamines? Has anyone here even tried 4-HO-NMT? This is getting more and more interesting. Mushrooms seem to be really devious to understand. Besides all this, mushrooms contain Norbaeocystin.

So to sum it up; mushrooms contain 4-PO-DMT, 4-HO-DMT, Baeocystin and Norbaeocystin. Plus lots of alkaloids. I'm trying to get hold of what make mushrooms different from other 4-subbed tryptamines, but maybe we have the answer here?

 

[Xorkoth]

Yes, nor/baeocystin appear to have some strange body effects at most when taken in isolation, not really any psychedelic effects. As I understand it, it's impossible for 4-PO-DMT to cross the BBB due to some reason (unlike 4-AcO-DMT which could cross the BBB itself), but certainly the rate of conversion and subsequent differences in absorption rate could account for differences. Also, it's entirely possible that there is a synergistic effect between the NMTs (nor/baeocystin) and the DMTs, or like Solipsis said, maybe due to competition for binding sites and so forth.

 

[KneelB4Doom]

Note to self: Plugging 20mg 2cb results in tripping HARD, but also projectile vomiting and the shakes.

 

[Solipsis]

Competition by inactive trypts for receptor binding sites would make the psilocin weaker, but competition for MAO-A would make for higher levels of alkaloids since MAO is more preoccupied to metabolize them. Yeah MAO does have a binding site though.. it's funny: with the receptor you look at competition from the receptor's perspective cause it's activation is what it's all about, but with the MAO you look at it from the ligand (drug/alkaloid)'s perspective cause you gotta have that..

I do not know if it's investigated what the affinities and efficacies of NMT, baeo etc are... that could help to straighten some stuff out


There's Psilocybe Cyanescens which are a wood-loving mushroom with leathery brown slick cap which can be wavy when mature, but also Panaeolus Cyanescens (pan cyan) which are rather petite and white standard looking mushrooms... when you dry those there's almost nothing left lol.. both pretty damn potent ones, and Azures too. These are species, not strains. Cubensis is also a species but it has many varieties (people do call those strains....) like Cambodian, Golden Teacher etc.

Those esters are supposed to be very rapidly metabolized in the blood to yield psilocin so you'd have to like inject it..

I wanna trip tomorrow! It's kinda late already (midnight) since I made thai green curry for 16 people who will be hiking in Italy when it's served :D and that is the last oddjob to pay for my summer shoes w00t!

Already took enough etiz this week, last night i went to bed way too late too since I had been finishing up bottling my aged and oaked cider and transferring fungi on agar..

Point is: with something like acid I want to start early enough in the day... I hope I don't have too bad of a tolerance, IMO a psychedelically very weak TMA-2 trip shouldn't produce tolerance.. that is: unless TMA-2 triggers a different and psychedelically weaker 5-HT2a activation pathway / signal cascade somehow but binds nonetheless. OTOH at that dosage it is supposed to produce a full trip which it didn't, so I really don't think it could have been 'secretly active'.. doesn't make sense..

EDIT:

ended up tripping on ETH-LAD + LSD and had an epic unity experience more on that later
makes me kinda consider reincarnation in a way after all, though in a bit of a different flavor than I always thought it to be...

non-abiding "enlightenment" type stuff though as I'll explain in a report one that leaves it ineffable and impossible to carry over whatever I tried, getting into futile loops. And also cycles of apparently being reborn and 'gaining a ring like those in the trunk of a tree'.

and quite a bit more involving MXE-type shifting 'quantum matrix computations / gears' that would have me follow the 3-MeO-PCP cult

 

[Xorkoth]

I got my hands on 10 x 2.5mg DOM blotters, hooray! I've been wanting to try DOM again. Now I've got all of the following DOXs in my collection:

DOB
DOC
DOET
DOF (seems to not be psychedelic)
DOM
DOiP
DOPr

I'd really mostly like to get some DOI for completion's sake, and I'd REALLY love some DOEF, not that I've ever seen it or heard of it outside PIHKAL.

Also some DOAL (allyl). And 2C-AL (allyl). They should be possible to make, and DOPr/2C-P (propyl) are both great substances. I've never heard of anyone synthing or exploring them though.

 

[Img_9999]

Really interested in you trip report, Solipsis. I don't picture you as easily convinced by mystic explanations so your experience sounds pretty intriguing.

I've also had a depiction of re-incarnation, on 2C-P specifically, but it revolved more around genetics and timelines and ancestorship rather than true metempsychosis.

 

[Xorkoth]

I was just in my car running some errands, and I heard a commercial that I hear from time to time about a local charity called "trips for kids". They collect bikes and stuff so kids who can't afford them can go on bike outings, but I always think of someone walking in there and giving them a sheet of LSD, hey, I've got some trips for kids, I hope they put them to good use.

 

[vortech]

Soli that does sound like a tasty trip. I was writing lyrics yesterday to possibly use in a song about changing seasons and wrote a line using a 'rings on a tree' metaphor.

and quite a bit more involving MXE-type shifting 'quantum matrix computations / gears' that would have me follow the 3-MeO-PCP cult

Interest piqued :D

 

[Tranced]

That moment when you realise your ketamine is racemic.

Hello visuals.

 

[KneelB4Doom]

4 hours into Lucy but her sister looking TOO good:D