Bupe ok so is the naltraxone really needed in suboxone or just there to scare people

[tightlywound]

Your what results from years of big pharma lying to doctors about Suboxone. Remember what the pharmaceutical reps told us about oxycontin back in the day? Or you are an outlier of the majority. We are seeing most people with a low to moderate tolerance can easily abuse both Suboxone and pure buprenorphine and get the exact same results time after time. Doing 16 mg of bupe in the form of subutex and then nodding has nothing to do with the lack of naloxone and more to do with the fact that bupe is 30-80 times more potent then morphine.

but I can do 16mg bupe in the form of suboxone or zubsolv and feel absolutely literally nothing in the slightest. at all. I do 8-10mg every single day.
I think I must just be an outlier because I am pretty well educated pharmalogically and was always under the impression that I would either get high on bupe or I wouldn't and it had nothing to do w/ there being naloxone in there. after literally never feeling anything off suboxone and zubsolv for so long (well save a nice little "glow" I had my very first day of induction and nothing ever again past that) I never expected to feel ANYTHING off subutex the first time I did it ...but surprise surprise. the few times I've done subutex, I get high. like I said I'm on bupe/naloxone maintenance and I IV them and never in my years on it have I EVER felt a SINGLE remotely perceptible thing from it.
again I guess I'm the outlier.
I'm not trying to argue w/ y'all's experience's or invalidate them. I'm just sharing mine.

 

[bEnZo bUdDyY]

I tend to agree with pretty much everything you have written, although off topic i find this interesting but it's just pretty much commen sense yeah! I did used to think sometimes that my dose worked better on some day's compared to others and just put it down to my body ie, the amount of sleep I've had and how I'm just feeling in general, however i still think this plays a big roll it was the fact that i used to sometimes take the smallest sip off water after I had taken my dose (Suboxone films) to help absorb it but really i was just making intoa watered down solution. I totally believe this stands to reason. Now I just wet my mouth and then keep it pretty much as dry as possible. I wet my mouth cause I have my dose pretty much as soon as I wake up and usually thaks to quetiapine my lips are stuck to my teeth when I wake up so you need a littlte bit of moisture.
Whats funny is the how uneducated and nieve sone chemists are, I've dosed at a lot of different chemists over the years and in lots of different states (AU) and at one chemist when I first started going there she used to pass me a cupp of water after i put the films in my mouth but i always said no thanks and was on my way but after a while i asked why she would hand me a cup of watet after my dose a d she said so i could wash it down meaning swallow it, I shit you not.

At least someone has a brain i feel you and that ending is crazy!

 

[bEnZo bUdDyY]

That's not a tenfold increase but a ~twofold increase. Anyway, I wanted to share my experience with using alcoholic solution. At first when I got good results with alcoholic solution, I was sure it's alcohol that does some magic like dilating your veins under your tongue. But now I don't think ethanol is necessary for the bioavailability to increase, what's more, I often can't see any difference between dosing a pill and dosing a solution (aqueous or alcoholic). Physically the difference is that when you dose it in a solution, say in 0.5ml of liquid, it's as if you had the pill dissolved right from the beginning in minimal amount of saliva, when you put a pill under your tongue, the key is how fast it dissolves and how much saliva you have under your tongue, ideally you want as little saliva for as long as possible. So if the amount of saliva increases fast after you put a pill under your tongue, you will likely get less absorbed because the concentration of bupe will be low. Another important factor in my opinion is thickness of your saliva, the more thick it is, the less is absorbed, if it's really thick, it feels like much much less is absorbed. So generally, you don't need alcoholic solution at all, it should work just as good with aqueous solution and if you have little saliva produced during pill dissolution, then you don't need to dissolve your pills before taking them, it's just a waste of time and some bupe in my opinion.

Ok dickk head just stating it makes a big difference

 

[bEnZo bUdDyY]

Exactly how do you use alcohol with your dose, do you just put your Suboxone in your mouth then have a sip of alcohol or...??

Step 1: obtain spoon, cooker,tsp measuring device is what i use.

Step 2: obtain a syringe either needless or with the needle.

Step 3: put desired amount of suboxone in spoon/cooker

Step 4: using the syringe add enough high proof alcohol let it sit for a few mins then stir and dump all of it under your tongue and then tell me how you feel. It increases it a lot.

Dont listen to that other guy he has no knowledge of this subject as he would know the alcohol solution works amazing!

 

[Prescottdave]

but I can do 16mg bupe in the form of suboxone or zubsolv and feel absolutely literally nothing in the slightest. at all. I do 8-10mg every single day.
I think I must just be an outlier because I am pretty well educated pharmalogically and was always under the impression that I would either get high on bupe or I wouldn't and it had nothing to do w/ there being naloxone in there. after literally never feeling anything off suboxone and zubsolv for so long (well save a nice little "glow" I had my very first day of induction and nothing ever again past that) I never expected to feel ANYTHING off subutex the first time I did it ...but surprise surprise. the few times I've done subutex, I get high. like I said I'm on bupe/naloxone maintenance and I IV them and never in my years on it have I EVER felt a SINGLE remotely perceptible thing from it.
again I guess I'm the outlier.
I'm not trying to argue w/ y'all's experience's or invalidate them. I'm just sharing mine.

So thats an anecdote meanwhile there is the clinical evidence. Something to keep in mind is the half-life of naloxone which is one hour. Naloxone a drug that is not really orally active unlike naltrexone. Maybe it will help if you read Jeffrey Junig MD PHD and his take on the matter. He runs the suboxone talk zone website. Scroll down on the "truth about Suboxone" page to the "people will abuse Subutex because it does not have the blocker" section. I was prescribed Subutex the entire time I was on ORT over 5 years until the end when I started to taper. I switched to the strips. They absorb better and you can cut them down to 100mcg. I also used to dispense buprenorphine in a patch form and then I would monitor the client after taking the medication. Some clients transferred to the patch from Suboxone. This included vitals and temperature. Im no doctor just a behavioral health tech. I never noticed anything clinically different from observing clients on pure bupe compared to suboxone. I myself never noticed any difference when using both formulations. Nor have my friends. Studies on the NIH and educational material on the NAABT website have also helped put this myth to rest. If you do like the effects of pure bupe you would be better off taking your meds as prescribed. The SL route would not absorb the naloxone and you would supposedly get "higher". At least if we are going by your theory.

 

[Prescottdave]

my doctor will only prescribe suboxone/zubsolv/bunavail too, bupe/naloxone basically, never subutex.
I hate to sound ignorant but I'm just speaking from experience ...maybe I'm the minority they make suboxone for ...because I can IV or SL basically any amount of bupe/naloxone, from 1-16mg and feel NOTHING, not the slightest inkling of anything, ever. but if I IV subutex I can get quite a noticeable buzz for a few hours depending on the amount.
definitely not placebo effect, the first time I shot subutex I was expecting it to feel just like my zubsolv, that is, 100% imperceptible in every way, especially because the subutex I had at the time was a lower dose than my dose of zubsolv. I just stumbled upon the chance to get a single subutex just exactly the day I was on my last zubsolv and the pharmacy was out of stock and I'd have to be w/o it a day at least (a totally common occurrence ...I save all my cottons now to tide me over from getting sick when the pharmacy inevitably fucks up. anyway.), so I was like "the universe is smiling on me and does not want me to w/d, hooray." surprise surprise when I actually caught a little buzz, granted no euphoria, but DEFINITELY a buzz.
another time I was in the psych hospital for a week and they only give subutex in there so I hoarded 4-8mg of my 12mg dose most days, shared some w/ a fellow junkie who came in sick and was refused pharmacuetical detox, and ended up w/ about 16mg when I got out. did it all in one shot and was straight up NODDING (though still no euphoria) for a good couple hours and residually buzzed for another one or two maybe. and I IV 8-10mg bupe/naloxone every day and have for years, have done as much as about 16mg in one shot and as little as ~1mg; I have never ONCE experience ANY perceptible feeling of any sort from bupe/naloxone. but enough subutex gets me good and buzzed.

just saying.

The fact that you say you IV 8-12 mg or so each day speaks worlds to your pharmacological understanding of buprenorphine and the ceiling effect.

 

[tightlywound]

So thats an anecdote meanwhile there is the clinical evidence. Something to keep in mind is the half-life of naloxone which is one hour. Naloxone a drug that is not really orally active unlike naltrexone. Maybe it will help if you read Jeffrey Junig MD PHD and his take on the matter. He runs the suboxone talk zone website. Scroll down on the "truth about Suboxone" page to the "people will abuse Subutex because it does not have the blocker" section. I was prescribed Subutex the entire time I was on ORT over 5 years until the end when I started to taper. I switched to the strips. They absorb better and you can cut them down to 100mcg. I also used to dispense buprenorphine in a patch form and then I would monitor the client after taking the medication. Some clients transferred to the patch from Suboxone. This included vitals and temperature. Im no doctor just a behavioral health tech. I never noticed anything clinically different from observing clients on pure bupe compared to suboxone. I myself never noticed any difference when using both formulations. Nor have my friends. Studies on the NIH and educational material on the NAABT website have also helped put this myth to rest. If you do like the effects of pure bupe you would be better off taking your meds as prescribed. The SL route would not absorb the naloxone and you would supposedly get "higher". At least if we are going by your theory.

it is an anecdote to anyone else but it is a life experience and fact to me and those quite close to me, depends on your perspective/where and who you are. a rule is not a rule unless there is an exception that proves it.
on the contrary, I do not particularly like the effects of bupe in the least ...well I mean, it keeps me well every day, I can't say that that's not a pretty inarguabley good effect, but that's not at all "fun"; and even the "high" (if you could call it that, no euphoria, just sedation) I have experienced the few times I've done subutex I did not really enjoy, because as I've already mentioned a few times there's no euphoria for me in that partial agonism.
I IV my bupe because I have a bad needle fix. I've already admitted (though I don't remember if on this thread, multiple times on BL in general though) that it think it's more effective SL

 

[tightlywound]

The fact that you say you IV 8-12 mg or so each day speaks worlds to your pharmacological understanding of buprenorphine and the ceiling effect.

it has zip to do w/ pharmacological understanding and 100% to do w/ needle fixation. I've already conceded in my above post and several other times on BL that it is more effective SL. but it keeps me well either way and I like needles so it all works out.
ETA: hate to be nitpicky and debated doing so, but what the hell -- please read for comprehension -- **8-10mg (in fact usually 8-9)

 

[Elis D]

Step 1: obtain spoon, cooker,tsp measuring device is what i use.

Step 2: obtain a syringe either needless or with the needle.

Step 3: put desired amount of suboxone in spoon/cooker

Step 4: using the syringe add enough high proof alcohol let it sit for a few mins then stir and dump all of it under your tongue and then tell me how you feel. It increases it a lot.

Dont listen to that other guy he has no knowledge of this subject as he would know the alcohol solution works amazing!

Thanks dude but i probably wont even try till i get lower on Suboxone.
I've only ever used mouth wash and didn't notice any difference but i don't think it would really matter or make much difference on a dose like 32mgs per day.

 

[Prescottdave]

Thanks dude but i probably wont even try till i get lower on Suboxone.
I've only ever used mouth wash and didn't notice any difference but i don't think it would really matter or make much difference on a dose like 32mgs per day.

Does your insurance cover the full 32 mg per day or do you pay out of pocket? I was reading about suboxone on another website. It said that the ceiling effect for SL bupe is actually achieved at 9-12 mg per day. I always was told the insurance companies changed to only covering 24 mg per day since the ceiling has been recently lowered.

 

[bEnZo bUdDyY]

Thanks dude but i probably wont even try till i get lower on Suboxone.
I've only ever used mouth wash and didn't notice any difference but i don't think it would really matter or make much difference on a dose like 32mgs per day.

No one should be on 32 mgs a day anyways....

With bupe less is more. Anyway you look at it. Look at temgestic.

 

[adder]

Ok dickk head just stating it makes a big difference

I have no idea why you would start with insults. As I already wrote, I used to dissolve my Suboxone in 40% alcohol, and yes, it generally does feel stronger than pills, but this is unlikely that ethanol specifically has something to do with it. There are many factors that come into play in buprenorphine s.l. absorption, the effects of the same dose can vary in strength a lot on different days and under ideal conditions it should be possible to get as much absorption from pills as from solution. All that alcohol can do here is irritate your mucosa and dilate veins a bit, and perhaps give an alcohol rush depending on the amount used, I don't believe buprenorphine taken s.l. is better absorbed from alcoholic solution than from aqueous solution. The study that used alcoholic solution of buprenorphine vs. pills definitely did not use 40% solution. I don't regularly use alcohol any more, I tried using 5%, 10% and 20% alcoholic solution and I can't tell any difference between those and plain aqueous solution, so I began dissolving 2mg in 0.5ml of water (5% NaCl solution or slightly basic mineral water) but I also just take a pill sometimes. However, whatever works out for you... I didn't write about my experience with this to deceive people but only to offer an opinion based on my own experimenting.

Anyway, if we're at this, one thing I considered about ethanolic soln of buprenorphine feeling stronger and perhaps a bit different in qualitative effects (which I would rather ascribe to synergistic effect of ethanol itself) is acid-catalyzed etherification taking place at C20 leading to C20-ethoxy analogue. Look up this article, it seems plausible that the ethyl ether derivative might be more potent than buprenorphine itself though it's hard to assess the intrinsic activity. This idea, as much as it seems to make sense, is in my opinion unlikely though, 40% ethanol in water solution is only mildly acidic and the content of ethanol seems to be too low to produce much of this ether derivative. But such a reaction is possible, under acidic conditions in methanol methyl ether of etorphine is obtained albeit in a fairly low yield (old Bentley's article, EDIT: after checking I guess the yield for this particular conversion is not given).

EDIT: Wow, I've just read that pH of vodka, whisky and gin is actually quite acidic (pH = 4.0), so if you let the pill sit in vodka for awhile, you might actually get some small amount produced, I guess!

 

[Elis D]

No one should be on 32 mgs a day anyways....

With bupe less is more. Anyway you look at it. Look at temgestic.

Yeah man that's what people say but i started a 8 and was never held for the day until i reached 32mgs a day.
I know exactly how bupe works and have been an opiate addict for 25yrs and ATM 32mgs holds me the day. I definitely think bupe is more when IVd cause i wont inject anymore than 4mgs at a time cause it's just a waste but i don't agree when taken sublingualy.
Are you forgetting everyone is different and reacts differently to drugs. No way someone should have to be any near higher than 100mgs of methadone a day either but people sure as hell succeed that dose.
I think to say so someone shouldn't be on a dose like 32mgs a day is a rediclous thing to say and your not in my shoes and have no idea how i react to drugs.
When I mix up bupe patches i have 2x20ug/hr patches in one taste, why, cause my bupe habit is fucking huge and i need a lot also I'm on a benzodiazepine WD tapering program for tbe first timein 25yrs and wont be lowering my dose till I'm well and truly off benzos so dude there are a lot of different factors that your not taking into account and aren't expected to know to take into account but don't assume someone everyone should be on a low dose of bupe just cause most people say more is less with bupe!

 

[Elis D]

Tamgesic is mainly prescribed for pain, do you think with a bupe habit like mine 200ugs or 4mgs is gunna do fuck all to me...!

 

[Prescottdave]

Yeah man that's what people say but i started a 8 and was never held for the day until i reached 32mgs a day.
I know exactly how bupe works and have been an opiate addict for 25yrs and ATM 32mgs holds me the day. I definitely think bupe is more when IVd cause i wont inject anymore than 4mgs at a time cause it's just a waste but i don't agree when taken sublingualy.
Are you forgetting everyone is different and reacts differently to drugs. No way someone should have to be any near higher than 100mgs of methadone a day either but people sure as hell succeed that dose.
I think to say so someone shouldn't be on a dose like 32mgs a day is a rediclous thing to say and your not in my shoes and have no idea how i react to drugs.
When I mix up bupe patches i have 2x20ug/hr patches in one taste, why, cause my bupe habit is fucking huge and i need a lot also I'm on a benzodiazepine WD tapering program for tbe first timein 25yrs and wont be lowering my dose till I'm well and truly off benzos so dude there are a lot of different factors that your not taking into account and aren't expected to know to take into account but don't assume someone everyone should be on a low dose of bupe just cause most people say more is less with bupe!

Equating 32 of bupe to 100 mg of methadone does not work given methadone does not have a celing effect. Did you know that in a few clinical studies 16 mg of bupe was shown to cause more respiratory depression compared with 32 mg. Sure I understand needing at least 16 mg during the first month after induction but you would be surprised to find that you can easily and comfortable taper down to just 9 mg and be completely maintained for 24 hours. The celing effect has never really been shown to be higher then 24 mg even in people who feel like they require more medication. 4 mg of bupe IV'd would equal about 16-18 mg SL. So if 4 mg by an IV route holds you you may find 12 mg SL will also keep you well. Thankfully you are likely just as dependent on Sub as someone who takes 9-16 mg.

 

[Elis D]

I have no idea why you would start with insults. As I already wrote, I used to dissolve my Suboxone in 40% alcohol, and yes, it generally does feel stronger than pills, but this is unlikely that ethanol specifically has something to do with it. There are many factors that come into play in buprenorphine s.l. absorption, the effects of the same dose can vary in strength a lot on different days and under ideal conditions it should be possible to get as much absorption from pills as from solution. All that alcohol can do here is irritate your mucosa and dilate veins a bit, and perhaps give an alcohol rush depending on the amount used, I don't believe buprenorphine taken s.l. is better absorbed from alcoholic solution than from aqueous solution. The study that used alcoholic solution of buprenorphine vs. pills definitely did not use 40% solution. I don't regularly use alcohol any more, I tried using 5%, 10% and 20% alcoholic solution and I can't tell any difference between those and plain aqueous solution, so I began dissolving 2mg in 0.5ml of water (5% NaCl solution or slightly basic mineral water) but I also just take a pill sometimes. However, whatever works out for you... I didn't write about my experience with this to deceive people but only to offer an opinion based on my own experimenting.

Anyway, if we're at this, one thing I considered about ethanolic soln of buprenorphine feeling stronger and perhaps a bit different in qualitative effects (which I would rather ascribe to synergistic effect of ethanol itself) is acid-catalyzed etherification taking place at C20 leading to C20-ethoxy analogue. Look up this article, it seems plausible that the ethyl ether derivative might be more potent than buprenorphine itself though it's hard to assess the intrinsic activity. This idea, as much as it seems to make sense, is in my opinion unlikely though, 40% ethanol in water solution is only mildly acidic and the content of ethanol seems to be too low to produce much of this ether derivative. But such a reaction is possible, under acidic conditions in methanol methyl ether of etorphine is obtained albeit in a fairly low yield (old Bentley's article, EDIT: after checking I guess the yield for this particular conversion is not given).

EDIT: Wow, I've just read that pH of vodka, whisky and gin is actually quite acidic (pH = 4.0), so if you let the pill sit in vodka for awhile, you might actually get some small amount produced, I guess!

I'll tell with insults cause his ego is huge! Take a look at some of the other thread's ol benzo buddy has added to and you'll see but then again don't waste your time. Bluelight is a place open for discussion not insults!!!

 

[Prescottdave]

Tamgesic is mainly prescribed for pain, do you think with a bupe habit like mine 200ugs or 4mgs is gunna do fuck all to me...!

Maybe I am misunderstanding what your saying but 4 mg is equal to 4,000 mcg/ugs

 

[Elis D]

Equating 32 of bupe to 100 mg of methadone does not work given methadone does not have a celing effect. Did you know that in a few clinical studies 16 mg of bupe was shown to cause more respiratory depression compared with 32 mg. Sure I understand needing at least 16 mg during the first month after induction but you would be surprised to find that you can easily and comfortable taper down to just 9 mg and be completely maintained for 24 hours. The celing effect has never really been shown to be higher then 24 mg even in people who feel like they require more medication. 4 mg of bupe IV'd would equal about 16-18 mg SL. So if 4 mg by an IV route holds you you may find 12 mg SL will also keep you well. Thankfully you are likely just as dependent on Sub as someone who takes 9-16 mg.

Yeah i hear you and understand but i wasn't equating bupe to methadone I was just trying to make a point but yes i do agree with you however as i stated after the fact I'm on a benzodiazepine WD tapering program and I won't be changing my bupe dose till I'm off them.

 

[Elis D]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what your saying but 4 mg is equal to 4,000 mcg/ugs

Yes this is true you are correct. 4mgs of bupe doesn't hold me i said i wouldn't inject anymore than 4mgs at one time. If i was to inject my whole dose it woul only be 4mgs at one time and I've never injected 32mgs a day in any way apart from with patches. I do disagree with the ceiling dose though, PERSONAL i feel that it is in between 32-40mgs a day. Thats just my opinion.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Here's a link to a article with more info on the subject for anyone who's interested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27267785

Doctors don't prescribe suboxone because it can't be abused. They prescribe it because peer reviewed studies have shown its marginally less abusable than bupe alone. Even the linked article admits that effects from the bupe will predominate, but keeping in mind that its an equilibrium system, increasing BA of naloxone in suboxone (ie injecting) will produce a marginally less euphoric experience--even if it's too small to tell. In reality, it's definitely marketing BS on which big pharma is capitalizing, but studies back up its efficacy (albeit weak data showing marginal decreased in abuse potential).

If you're experiencing side effects that you can't tolerate such as headaches, your doctor needs to treat them. Whether that's switching to bupe alone or with a different med is at their discretion, but they can't ignore you even if they think you're drug seeking.