October Getting/Staying Sober/Clean Thread v. OctSOBER!

[phactor]

My current "gripe" with the rehab industry

I just really hate how these places try to tell the individual they can not do it alone. Sure a lot of people need help and guidance some may never be able to do it on their own but when you have someone saying "nah fuck that i wont get sick, who are you to tell me to stay on drugs?" should be sign enough that person isnt one of those "addicted for life needs the support of the world to stay off dope" type of person. Sorry it just really gets me that not even my heroin dealer would tell me i couldnt quit no one in my life other then a clinic has ever said i couldnt do something on my own, i was raised to believe if i try hard i can accomplish anything and that my brain is like a jack hammer enough time on a boulder of a problem and it will break it down so it upsets me when someone trys to say the opposite.

We are all capable of doing anything we set ourselves to, be it alone or in a group. I dont think addiction is a life long process for everyone and i dont think everyone needs to "actively avoid their DOC" for the rest of their lives, i think thats almost as bad as being addicted.

Heres to the g/f who dropped another 3mg against everyones advise and is down to 8mg, she doesnt sleep anymore and hates her existence at this exact moment but refuses take any more opiates or anything because she knows she can do it. Heres to anyone who tells themselves they can do it while they are in a pain only we can understand. I keep saying i look up to her and that i can only hope i am as strong and dedicated as her, sure she makes my life a living hell when shes like this but it will eventually get better! She went from 14mg down to 8mg in 3 weeks, one 3mg drop 3 weeks ago and one 3 days ago.

I hope the edibles from the dispensary I am going to beg my 65 year old uncle to get will help her sleep, she doesnt want to come off methadone slowly lol But seriously I love how supportive this thread is!!!

P.S. I cant get her to join BL she thinks its somehow an invasion of my privacy like she did my avatar and i told her "here my password and everything go on my account and just see the layout so you know what do to" (she is a graphic designer for fun) and she wouldnt. She even said "omg I went to see what it looks like and of course the first thread has something about me in it" and it would have been like the above paragraph as i hide absolutely nothing from her but shes not as analytical as me so she doesnt get as much comfort in facts as i do.

Let's flip this around:

The large majority of the population thinks that addiction is a choice. That leads to most people thinking that addicts can just stop and are choosing to use. This is far more pervasive then the disease model. Frankly, no rehab should tell people they can do it on there own, the large majority of people who land in rehab have significant problems. I have never seen someone who has a true chemical dependency just stop using. Believe me, if I could have just stopped on willpower I would have. So would 99.9 percent of people who need some type of outside support. I seriously wanted nothing more in life to stop living in a process of hell on earth. That is how bad it was for me. I fucking wanted to kill myself everyday. I couldn't stop using drugs no matter what or how hard I tried. Sure I'd get six months or a year, but it never stuck and I was really fucking unhappy when I wasn't using.

Addiction causes people to isolate and try to live in secret. In order to combat this, one needs to form new connections. Not to mention, that it is nigh impossible to hang out with old associates. As for being able to use succesfuly as an addict, its not possible for me. I tried for over a decade to figure it out. Its much easier to just not use. My life is great today.

There really is a difference between heavy substance abusers and true addicts. Even AA in the 1930s realized this. Also, there is the whole concept of "clean and crazy". I know whenever I would stop using drugs I would be fucking miserable. I couldn't figure out how to live without them. I needed lots of help.

Getting involved with a group of fellow recovering addicts was the best decision I ever made. Evidence shows that people in recovery are more succesfull when they are together. I am not sure what you current situation is, but please keep an open mind. Also, if your GF is in treatment, try to let her figure out what works for her. I would strongly urge you to not try to talk her out of attending support groups. It very well could be a life or death issue.

Also, if you are talking about a methadone clinic, I wouldn't exactly call it the "rehab industry". Methadone is drug replacement therapy, which I am not knocking but it is separate from traditional treatment and self help groups.

Heres to the g/f who dropped another 3mg against everyones advise and is down to 8mg, she doesnt sleep anymore and hates her existence at this exact moment but refuses take any more opiates or anything because she knows she can do it.

Just have to point out that we definitely discourage going against the doctors advice here. If I were in your position, I would suggest she call her doctor and let him know what she is doing. She is at a huge risk for relapse right now. Subs are tapered for a reason.

Just putting an alternative opinion out there. Nothing personal.

Recovery is about far far more then just stopping the drugs. That is actually the easy part IMO. The hard part is learning to live without them. That is where other people come in. Especially ones who have succesfully learned to live without them and handled situations clean in which they would have used in the past. God knows I have had a few situations where I would have relapsed had it not been for others.

 

[manboychef]

Are you feeling apprehensive or really think you need more time?

Congrats on all your progress manboychef

My ex was very terrible to me. When I broke up with her, she filed a police report against me and kidnapped my son. That was just the final blow. I still haven't gotten past the thought; "no matter what I do, that situation is always on the table. If she can lie and get away with it, then what if I meet someone that turns out like her? I cannot open my heart to that kind of treatment yet."

Thanks! I actually couldn't have gotten this far without reading your posts, NSA's posts,herbivore and priest called him etc....basically all the recovery related and mental health related moderators.(I didn't forget you crimsonjunk and phaktor, you helped me as well) You all deserve a pat on the back and a thank you. Reading some of the threads has gotten me through some extremely dark times in my life. I hope that I can be just as helpful to the addict that is so sick of using, but too scared to stop (how I was when I found this place) as you guys were for me.

 

[manboychef]

Sorry about the double post, but this is completely separate from the above post.

@phactor...it is like you were telling my story! I tried for so long with many different things. Maintenance didn't work, rapid tapers didn't work. It was only after I developed a network of sober addicts that I truly started to understand how to recover. I don't believe that I am powerless over drugs and alcohol, so I change the first step to . I came to an understanding that I had a problem that I, by myself, cannot stop. I don't buy into the whole powerlessness thing because I do have power over using or not. I choose not to use, thus having power over it. I too had been hopeless and did try to end it because at the time I saw no way out. Now I have hope. I have seen that recovery is possible, and there is life after addiction. Reading the testimonials on here is helpful as well. My mental health problems (which I have posted about in other threads are doing much better now that I have a sober state of mind) are being medicated by a doctor, instead of self medicated.

I did the same thing. I would get a year here, a few months there, but I didn't change my people places and things and I would get extremely complacent. I would talk myself into "I can just smoke a little pot, or I can have a glass of wine." Now I know it is just my addict brain talking to me. That bratty little part of my brain knows it wants my DOC but it has to slip past a couple gates to get there. It is like a senator trying to push a special interest bill....he has to grease the other senators first with bills that they want passed. Every time I used I would end up back to being strung out and wired up on dope eventually, and every time I stopped and went back, I would be on my run longer and longer.

I agree with you about the "sober and crazy/dry drunk" thing. When I tried to stop on my own I was abstinent but never sober. I had no piece of mind, I was scattered on my best days. It took working the steps through in order to actually know myself. I had been using for more than half my life and it was all I knew. I had to look in the mirror and say "who are you?" and really do some soul searching (ie step four) in order to understand myself. Doing step four also stopped me from throwing my king baby pity parties that would lead me to use. I realized that most of the problems in my life I had a major role in.

When it comes to szukos significant other our thoughts are similar but diverge on a key point. I do believe she needs support, and having szuko there is a great start because most every post I have read from him is positive, optimistic, and I can tell he genuinely cares for his g/f. I would suggest going to a women's only meeting because there she can meet a lot of positive women to help her going through what she is about to be going through (just be wary, there are people in meetings that really aren't there for recovery, I actually relapsed with a sponsor once). Even just having numbers to call is a great way to beat a craving. A support network is so key in recovery. I do believe that she has the momentum to beat the methadone quicker. Usually doctors err on the side of caution, and with methadone and suboxone, extreme caution. From previous posts from szuko, it seems like she is completely fed up with being on methadone and wants to live opiate free. To have this standpoint one must be willing to take the risk of feeling withdrawals, and dealing with discomfort (something we learn in early recovery, because lets face it, all of us hated to be uncomfortable, hence why we used) which she would feel anyway if she jumped off at a lower dose. Most people don't know how strong they really are, and how strong they can be if they apply themselves.

If it were me rapid tapering the methadone, I would do a week in detox if possible to get me through the worst of the acute symptoms, and then talk to my GP about treating the other symptoms. I would also really rely heavily on my support network. She is very fortunate to have someone as supportive as szuko to help her through it too. She is also lucky to have a forum like this due to the differing views on recovery which allows us to take the parts we can use piecemeal and develop a method to recovery instead of just relying on the twelve steps, or smart recovery.

To Ms. Szuko, I wish you the best of luck...make sure you have good supplements to help you through the withdrawals...I hear they are gnarly.

 

[Erikmen]

I just realized I'm 8 months off, not 7. Not that it matters that much but I'm glad I got that right.

So full 8 months off and doing great now. It took a while but I'm proud I am succeeding!

I'm really happy! It's important for to realize how far we go as everyday has a history to tell.

Congratulations on everyone's progress!!

 

[szuko000]

Thanks for all of the kind wishes! And your right I do have a specific grudge against the clinic I have been going to since I started this whole thing and its honestly because that was the only place ever told me no "no i couldnt lower my suboxone dose to less then 8mg if i wanted to be on the program." and we got into a heated verbal argument and i left the place got clean and relapsed a year and a half after getting off subs. And as they were the only people in my life to say i could and then i did (as i always do when i try something) so it does effect the way i view the treatment they give. And then they still tried to tell me i should be on methadone for 2 years and i went along with it all the while knowing i could leave and just never come back again and that at some point i probably will have to. I understand i am an anomaly and an outlier I would never expect anyone to do what I do in recovery and that my way probably isnt the way it should be. I consider myself more knowledgeable then the counselors and i basically use the place for my methadone dispensing (have massive stockpile too ) and not somewhere that i *need* to go for support.

If i were not me and i were not the best person for the job (i am extremely arrogant get use to it) then i would never suggest she drop her dose as she is. Because i have graduated cylinders and burettes and variety of scientific measure, if it came to it i could lower our dose to nanograms and we could get off our own. She has gotten all the withdrawal meds she can from her psyche and i am getting some edibles from the medical marijuana industry to help her sleep as she gets off completely. Shes dropped by heroic amounts before and this one is 14 down to 8 and sure she can be a bit moody and whatever but she is infinitely happier knowing she is finally closing this 3 year daily opiate routine and believe me i have said "i know you can do it but seriously think about what it means to come off, you are going to get sick and sure we dont associate it with opiates but it sucks" and she knows all of that and i cant stop her from feeling ready nor would i want to. I know one day she will wake up and tell me she is done and that will be the end of it and we will deal wtih the following weeks as they come.

I really appreciate all of the responses really and i dont want you guys thinking i am just ignoring the advise or something. I would love for her to keep going for the benefit of the groups we take together and stuff but far be it from me to even say the words that may deter someone from making the biggest step ever. And if you could see the way shes changed, from crying and cutting herself over heroin withdrawal holding each other crying because i have to beg my mom for money, to now talking about how people are amazed shes not sick from a 50% reduction so i said just say "yeah i know i wanted to be on the ground going argg fuck my life, isnt it weird" I really think to be completely honest this whole thing has shown her that she isnt some weak girl who had a rough childhood and is doomed to be on opiates forever but rather a warrior who has proven herself through the trials she faced growing up and then through opiate addiction. I cant even begin to understand what its like for her, she use to be a candidate for women's support sure but now i think she might just get annoyed at the sad stories what she really truly could use is a good one on one with a female psychologist who she can go over the traumas of her father abusing her mom and a bunch of other events but shes way too private a person to open up in a group.

But thats the end of my long post i swear I honestly wish and maybe someday she will write a story about herself especially now that she is beginning to rediscover herself. Its funny in the middle of the worst of it she questioned how "someone like me could be with someone like her" I always had a job went to work dope sick and did everything and she felt she did nothing and was using me and was just a weak pathetic person who would only bring me down, I think we are all capable of changing our fates and it upsets me when someone is told they cant do it on their own. The human mind is powerful and the idea it can be done is all it takes to make it happen

Also i loath the term "risk of relapse" as i think we all agree its a choice, and that exactly what they said before i told them to fuck off and i was never coming back "if you leave now your at risk of relapse" yeah if i actually considered that an option LOL like its something that just happens ya know? My relapse was because she never stopped and i was still IVing heroin for her having never taught her how and was getting it every day for over a year before i decided fuck it my life hasnt changed, then i got her on methadone once i started my second round. But i was IVing dope for her while on subs while withdrawing from subs, then once i got on methadone before she did and never had a problem or was "at risk of relapse" so your talking to the wrong guy about that

Just think i was WDing from subs and coping 4 bundles for her for the week and giving her 3 shots a day and continuing that for like 16 months... i am being serious that shit happened.

 

[Papaverium]

Hey guys...Would it be worth it for me to go to the methadone clinic and start treatment? I know this is probably a silly question, but I'm basically backed into a corner now, unable to hold a steady job r do anything with myself... Do you think it would make me more able to function, or just more dependent on opiates?
I don't know what to do anymore. I've been posting in these threads about getting clean for over a year now, I just want it to become a reality...

everyone talks about suboxone, maybe that's a better option.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Hey guys...Would it be worth it for me to go to the methadone clinic and start treatment? I know this is probably a silly question, but I'm basically backed into a corner now, unable to hold a steady job r do anything with myself... Do you think it would make me more able to function, or just more dependent on opiates?
I don't know what to do anymore. I've been posting in these threads about getting clean for over a year now, I just want it to become a reality...

everyone talks about suboxone, maybe that's a better option.

Yes, try to get to a suboxone doctor who will be willing to treat you out-patient.

Some of us are unable to quit without the help of ORT.

 

[DutchBloke]

Day 11

I have such a hard time falling asleep, it sometimes takes up to 5 hours.
It's driving me crazy, I tried making myself very tired, not looking at screens for 3 hours before I go to bed.
Yesterday I bought some melatonin, got really drunk, took a shitload of the melatonin and that kinda worked a little.
Tonight I will test it without the drunk part..


Everything else is going pretty well however

 

[manboychef]

that is excellent to hear dutchbloke. It does take a while to get your sleeping patterns back into shape after quitting cannabis. You might want to try chamomile or kava tea. Both tend to help put me in a relaxed state. I take temazepam for sleep. After I quit opiates my sleeping pattern never returned to normal (two months of bad sleep) and when I was a child I had a hard time sleeping. I can't unwind, and then I wake up quite a bit throughout the night. I was taking seroquel which worked incredibly, however my body reacts badly too it, and it raises my liver enzymes to an unsafe level. I honestly did not want to give benzos a try, but unfortunately most sleeping aids do not help me.

Opiate replacement therapy might be the right fit for you Papaverium. I would give it a shot if you are trying to quit, but chronically relapsing. Suboxone can help you regain the stability you need in your life, however you do need to work on the problems that come with being addicted to opiates. I say addicted, because it is very different from dependent. Do not worry or feel bad that you may become dependent on suboxone if it gives you an increase in the quality of your life.

 

[DutchBloke]

Thanks , I am a bit frightened by benzo's. So that would be my last resort.
As a kid I too had sleeping problems, but this is not quite anything like it. It had much to do with me not wanting to sleep.
So if you could put them in order from light to heavy, where should I start?

Also I don't know my family doctor so i'm a bit anxious to throw this all out, Any suggestions how I can come to a good solution with him?

Thanks again, seems like some solid advice!

 

[manboychef]

I would try trazedone first...seroquel tends to make people gain weight, but is also an option. Zopiclone, and zolpidem (z drugs...these for some reason dont work on me) are the next step...the the last step is restoril (temazepam)

I would just be honest with your doctor. That is the best approach. Just tell him/her that you are having a difficult time sleeping. Be specific. Is it hard to fall asleep? Do you fall asleep but have a hard time staying asleep? Do you find your sleep to not be restful, or wake up easily? These are all questions you should ask yourself before you go talk to your doctor in case you need medication for sleeping. Yes benzos should be a last resort. I had tried many different things. My doctor even suggested marijuana, which I turned down (my doctor is very progressive, I am in florida and being charged with marijuana is still jailtime here)

Just try different things and see what works. Order some kava and make tea and try that first though. With melotonin it works best when you take the same amount every night at the same time.

good luck.

 

[Papaverium]

Yeah maybe I am gonna look into Suboxone. I need to go to find a doctor first though. There's this detox place downtown I'm looking into trying out. They will probably suggest I go on treatment meds.
I've tried to quit cold turkey, and by tapering many times and it just isn't working. I don't feel like I have the willpower to stay away from it yet... Even after almost a two month break this summer, as soon as I got back to my hometown, I already had planned to meet up with a dealer. It's stupid. I don't know why I couldn't have just stayed away for good. Now I'm at a point where I just wanna be able to function in society. I don't think I'll be able to just quit, I've gotta do it slowly.

 

[phactor]

Yeah maybe I am gonna look into Suboxone. I need to go to find a doctor first though. There's this detox place downtown I'm looking into trying out. They will probably suggest I go on treatment meds.
I've tried to quit cold turkey, and by tapering many times and it just isn't working. I don't feel like I have the willpower to stay away from it yet... Even after almost a two month break this summer, as soon as I got back to my hometown, I already had planned to meet up with a dealer. It's stupid. I don't know why I couldn't have just stayed away for good. Now I'm at a point where I just wanna be able to function in society. I don't think I'll be able to just quit, I've gotta do it slowly.

I had to go on Subs. In my opinion, getting on Subs is "quitting" as long as you are only taking the subs. You were using pods correct? I did too for years and I simply had to go to treatment and get on Subs. Pods are fucking super hard, especially when using other opiates on top like I was.

I was able to get off of the Subs and stayed okay for awhile. I then decided I could drink and it was back on. Terrible mistake, but it was my last run which I needed to go through.

 

[Papaverium]

I had to go on Subs. In my opinion, getting on Subs is "quitting" as long as you are only taking the subs. You were using pods correct? I did too for years and I simply had to go to treatment and get on Subs. Pods are fucking super hard, especially when using other opiates on top like I was.

I was able to get off of the Subs and stayed okay for awhile. I then decided I could drink and it was back on. Terrible mistake, but it was my last run which I needed to go through.

No I use IV Dilaudid. And yeah I've made the mistake of getting drunk while quitting, then going out to pick up. When inhibitions are lowered its hard to say no to the addiction demon. A big part of it is getting the needle fixation out of my head too.. We all know how addictive the ritual can be, not only the drug itself.

 

[szuko000]

Yeah maybe I am gonna look into Suboxone. I need to go to find a doctor first though. There's this detox place downtown I'm looking into trying out. They will probably suggest I go on treatment meds.
I've tried to quit cold turkey, and by tapering many times and it just isn't working. I don't feel like I have the willpower to stay away from it yet... Even after almost a two month break this summer, as soon as I got back to my hometown, I already had planned to meet up with a dealer. It's stupid. I don't know why I couldn't have just stayed away for good. Now I'm at a point where I just wanna be able to function in society. I don't think I'll be able to just quit, I've gotta do it slowly.

We all make mistakes like that it's almost like we trick ourselves into thinking it's a reward or somehow we can keep it at once in a while but I don't think anyone (at least not enough to count as more then a statistic anomaly) can continue recreational use after being addicted but many of us have tried.

And many people find that suboxone and methadone save their lives in a sense. The structure of a clinic brings structure and allows for strength through having a group to "report to" You wouldn't believe how much those two simple things can change a pattern of behavior. I think if you stick with one of those, given the fact you want it, you will be able to live a life without opiates. And it's important to remember life is long so if you spend 4 years coming off methadone 1mg at a time you still have plenty of time to enjoy the time after.

I think if you can't get into a sub place or you find they aren't for you, not everyone responds the same, then I encourage you to try methadone. I have done both subs and methadone and succeeded in staying clean for over a year before I relapsed, I was completely off opiates for over a year. Subs were great for me they cured cravings and blocked opiates 100% which I needed at the time. They allowed me to get my life organised and go to work then I slowly came off with no pain. Methadone seems to be more the same except it doesn't give the massive energy boost subs do and I plan on coming off it over the next 6 months and hopefully it won't be bad. But without them I would not have gotten clean period. I may think I am capable of anything but I have a job and responsibilities so I can't afford to get sick until it's planned and I was shooting dope so it's hard to plan to be incapacitated for a week but it's easily to plan for a daily drive to go to the clinic.

And being on recovery meds, provided you are using them as directed, is being clean. I think of "being dirty" if you wanna use the opposite of clean, as being involved in the life style and if you out of that life style your clean. Being an addict is a full time job and when your doing it full time and using your DOC your dirty. It upsets me that some people take some kinda Buddhist monk philosophy when it comes to "being clean" I think the individual knows if they are clean or not

 

[Papaverium]

Thanks for the input guys.. I'm seriously considering this because I don't know what else to do. I'm so sick and tired of being tired and sick.
You know how it is... lol

I guess it is considered being clean because at that point, it's a prescribed medication. I'm not going out of my way to use it to get high, I wanna stop using altogether eventually, and it would be a good starting point. I just gotta get off hydromorphone first then I'll worry about getting off Subs or methadone, whichever route I decide to take. I see a lot of people prefer Subs so I think on Monday when I go to the detox clinic I'm gonna ask the doctor about that maybe.

I just don't know where to begin on telling them. I guess they will ask me a buttload of questions, so I don't really need to think of what to say, they're already gonna know I'm an opiate addict. I've wanted to go to a doctor for a while, but I've just been so hesitant.. I don't know why. Maybe I'm nervous, or maybe the addiciton doesnt want me to. It's probably a mix of both, I'm just really nervous to go get help..

 

[szuko000]

Believe me it get way easier once you accept that you need help. It's always really hard saying "I am an addict and need help" the first time but it will get a lot better for you once you at least try it out. There is no harm in going there and trying in a sense

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thanks for the input guys.. I'm seriously considering this because I don't know what else to do. I'm so sick and tired of being tired and sick.
You know how it is... lol

I guess it is considered being clean because at that point, it's a prescribed medication. I'm not going out of my way to use it to get high, I wanna stop using altogether eventually, and it would be a good starting point. I just gotta get off hydromorphone first then I'll worry about getting off Subs or methadone, whichever route I decide to take. I see a lot of people prefer Subs so I think on Monday when I go to the detox clinic I'm gonna ask the doctor about that maybe.

I just don't know where to begin on telling them. I guess they will ask me a buttload of questions, so I don't really need to think of what to say, they're already gonna know I'm an opiate addict. I've wanted to go to a doctor for a while, but I've just been so hesitant.. I don't know why. Maybe I'm nervous, or maybe the addiciton doesnt want me to. It's probably a mix of both, I'm just really nervous to go get help..

I was very nervous at first about getting on Suboxone back in 2009. The doctor was very kind, asked questions objectively, wasn't judgmental, and didn't drug test me. The intake process was as quick as could be, though your experience may vary.

You'll feel so much better after getting through intake, just be brave! You can do this.

 

[Papaverium]

I was very nervous at first about getting on Suboxone back in 2009. The doctor was very kind, asked questions objectively, wasn't judgmental, and didn't drug test me. The intake process was as quick as could be, though your experience may vary.

You'll feel so much better after getting through intake, just be brave! You can do this.

Thank you so much CH
Will report back with results tomorrow.
Wish me luck everyone! ^^

 

[Erikmen]

Good luck Papaverium!