Neo-doves Part II

[phase_dancer]

I'm no chemist, but Amino acid blend alone could mean many things.

Amino acids by definition have at least one amine and one carboxylic acid group i.e. an NH2 and a COOH which in pH neutral environments produces a zwitterion (NH3+ and COO-) (Amino acids - an Introduction) . By contrast, the active chemicals found in these compounds are not amino acids, simply because none contain the carboxylic group.

The labeling is misleading and therefore, potentially dangerous.

 

[phase_dancer]

Now - I have a limited amount of chemical knowledge, so what do these results mean for a user who has used one or two pills every now and then recreationally. I'm particularly worried about the findings of (permanent??) DA depletion. Would people recommend sticking away from this range entirely, or are there other ways to minimise harms as with using other drugs, e.g. only using once every few months, not redosing, not mixing etc...

Well, I don't believe it's really my place to say don't ever take them...that is, at least, unless there's some clear and proven evidence that the compounds have a concerning toxicity profile. At this stage, we can only speculate based upon the information available.

The fact is, there's very little within the scientific literature to indicate trials have ever been done on either of the 4-fluoromethamphetamine, 4-methylmethcathinone or Phthalimidopropiophenone, from which would be established things like metabolism, and how they work and on what receptor sytems.

There's also no clear idea of how some of the mixtures of products may interact and whether this increases the likelihood of adverse reactions with some people. We also have no clear idea if one or more of these products is contraindicated with other medications.

Sorry for showing my ignorance of chemistry here but if Phthalimidopropiophenone is a prodrug that the stomach acid may turn into an illicit drug what exactly is that drug?

I take it that it is some sort of cathinone?

Yes, if the phthalimido group is cleaved in-vivo as is done via hydrolysis in the lab, the products will be cathinone and depending upon pH, phthalic acid or the o-phthalate ion

 

[Splatt]

4-fluoromethamphetamine i reckon would be on par with meth neurotoxicity.. certsainly messes with brain chemicals a lot

 

[fenderbender]

1st a big thank you for doing this much needed analysis!

Questions to the experts here:

I guess with the complex formula of the doves and SCs it's almost impossibile to say, but regarding the Spirits/4-Methylmethcathinone:

How would You compare the danger and toxicity - with all information that is available so far - of 4-Methylmethcathinone to illegal alternatives like Coke, Amphetamine and MDMA?
I know there is not enough research available for a definitive answer and even the aforementioned illegals havent been completely researched yet, but I would still be interested in Your evalution considering your obvious expertise in this area.
Because in the end all drugs of such potency are dangerous, but while e.g. I am willing to take the risk of amphetamine or coke I would never touch meth or anything known to be as bad...

The most concerning fact about 4-Methylmethcathinone would be the possible permanent damage/depletion of neurotransmitters as far as I understand it, but I assume that there is no research available to determine that yet...?

 

[juice_soldier]

Because in the end all drugs of such potency are dangerous, but while e.g. I am willing to take the risk of amphetamine or coke I would never touch meth or anything known to be as bad...

Sounds a little bit stigmatized if you ask me.

 

[phase_dancer]

Yo've answered your own question really. We really don't know, so all we can do is speculate based on predicted SAR. In that sense, concern has been raised as was outlined in the BL report posted on page 6.

 

[fenderbender]

Sounds a little bit stigmatized if you ask me.

I want deny that, of course I try to get an objective opinion but in the end I'm not safe from prejudices and stigmatism.
However AFAIK meth is still considered to be (much) worse/toxic than amph/coke by the scientific community, but I wont say that's 100% sure.

Yo've answered your own question really. We really don't know, so all we can do is speculate based on predicted SAR. In that sense, concern has been raised as was outlined in the BL report posted on page 6.

Hmm okay... Do You reckon that a conclusion like "Spirits are probably as dangerours as meth or Spirits are probably "only" as dangerous and toxic as coke" can be drawn in the near future or would that need "real" tests and research - which will probably never been done in the foreseeable future?

 

[phase_dancer]

"Spirits are probably as dangerours as meth or Spirits are probably "only" as dangerous and toxic as coke"

Answers to that question will be rather subjective as both present different risk factors, so who's to say which is worst, particularly in the long term. More heart attacks occur with cocaine use than with methamphetamine, although meth causes increases in blood pressure and heart rate so does place additional strain on the heart. Both have some degree of neurotoxicity and both can cause psychosis. You might say coke's better or safer in the short term, but if you're predisposed it might prove more dangerous.

We simply don't as yet know just what the dangers are with the spirits or other Neorg products. However, revealing the compounds, and generating discourse on the possible pharmacological properties enables someone to make an informed choice, even if that information is speculation based. There's no hard fast rules, so what's considered relatively safe, or feared or suspected now, may alter with forthcoming research.

In the end, as with many RC type compounds, you have to make a decision on what info is available. There's always going to be some risk and often that risk isn't going to be quantifiable.

 

[antheads]

intersting, i think there will be some clarification of the results coming soon. it would be interesting to know the ratio of this Phthalimidopropiophenone because it seems a bit pointless unless it was added to delay identification.

perhaps the proclaimed death of rc legal highs is premature.. A week ago 5 substances were made illegal to import by the Knesset, i will get some advice but i am pretty sure these substances are some of the ones that have been identified in this report. And already new substances are being introduced into that market as a direct result.. The Israelis seem unwilling to pass analouge laws for their own reasons, and the substances identified are legal in many parts of the world. A couple of clarifications based on what i have heard(not that i really know what i'm talking about in any scientific way)

- methcathinone is a lot weaker than cathinone, users will increase dosage to compensate
- flouromethamphetamine is a weaker than methamphetamine on dopamine receptors but as stated directly acts on seretonin as well.
- 'hagigat' was synthesized cathinone, not a cathinone analouge, these analouges did not eventuate until cathinone was made illegal in israel.
- the combination of 4-methylmethcathinone and other cathinone analouges in 'neo-dove' produces a very euphoric mdxx like sensation, especially when eficiated by alchohol beforehand. Therefore the abuse pontential is similar to mdxx and not methcathinone/amphetamine. It really reminds me back of the old days of mixing ephedra and guarana would somehow create a kickass euphoric..
The research i have done on user feedback of 'neo-doves' and similar products seems to indicate that users seem to regard it like a speedy e or in fact better than the pills currently doing the rounds in some states. ("the pills are shit in australia" according to some doctor..) Users have reported that after a dose or 2 the comedown is drastically reduced compared to mdxx.
While abuse is possible its like taking an mdxx every day why would you want to? Of course this is only pertains to sample 3 and 4 and not the fluromethspeed.
- there have been some VERY RARE reports of allergic reactions to either the active ingrediants or byproducts of 'neo-dove'
- from what i have heard the combination of the neodove analouges has been reported tested with with large amounts of alcohol, small amounts of tamezapan and 'some' street pills with no reported side effects or toxicity. Alcohol and other GABA antagonists(?) seem to further increase the serotonigic effects of the product.
- like other cathinone analouges these substances have medicinal qualities that need to be trialed..

 

[antheads]

regarding safetly we must remember that hundreds of thousands/millions of these neodoves have been sold around the world with no noticeable neurotoxic or side effects in the population, so the product has undergone human trials of sorts .. however the relevant Knesset commitee believes that they cause serious and uncontrollable side effects. and cause harm to internal organs, including the brain, heart, liver and kidneys.

go figure

 

[rm2x]

however the relevant Knesset commitee believes that they cause serious and uncontrollable side effects. and cause harm to internal organs, including the brain, heart, liver and kidneys.

go figure

So does alcohol

go figure

yup

 

[Kyle]

agreed, short term, well we've seen the results, which the survey's will probably back up.

It's the long term, and binging effects that is the main concern.

so.. is it still legal to order even though this doesn't match the companies compound list?

As well as I'd like to see the same study done for the LU's

 

[Tabaluga]

I have seen many industry insider analyses of party pills that are supposedly 'legal in the whole world' and NONE of them would be legal under australian law. Many contain obscure piperazine derivatives, beta-ketone PEAs or ritalin derivatives, almost all of which are illegal under australian law.

The substances in the analysis done by P_d and the good doctor are DEFINITELY illegal under several layers of legislation. They would not pass the Customs Act Import Regulations. They would not pass the federal Criminal Code Act analogs clause. They would not pass the PEA analogs legislation of any state [why does your document say 'most states'?].

So one thing is for certain, that the supplier can not be trusted to actually be even remotely truthful about the legal situation of his products in australia. These compounds have been illegal in all states for well over 10 years.
It would be foolish to think that the supplier has dsuddenly developed a bad case of honesty and his current products are any more trustworthy than the previous ones. Think about that next time you order from him. You could be sitting there with a criminal record for drug importation and drug possession, which can have serious consequences on your work, travel and lifestyle.

The whole point of taking legal party pills is to not have to worry about the legal consequences. Otherwise you might as well take MDMA as this is probably as safe as most of these substances. So, you are paying more for your pill, taking a greater risk about unknown substances, and taking a greater legal risk because you are now a drug importer. Who benefits from that?

Someone asked about how this affects customs and police. It doesn't really. At this stage they are pretty oblivious to party pills. But this is changing. There is nothing stopping them however to analyse a pill at point of entry or if you get raided or searched in the street, and ultimately the legal onus is on you.

Great work guys! I hope you do lots more of these. I know your perspective is one of harm minimisation and you are probably focussing mainly on physical harm. Personally I feel that taking advantage of the ignorance and gullibility of a community is just as bad especially if serious legal harm can come to them. Your work rewards those who actually try and provide truely legal alternatives for the australian marketplace.

 

[phase_dancer]

They would not pass the PEA analogs legislation of any state [why does your document say 'most states'?].

This post from Biscuit was found in the first Neodoves thread.

To my knowledge the SUSDP schedules only specific substances as opposed to analogues of those specific substances.

WA has no blanket analogue laws in its Poisons or Misuse of Drugs legislation.

The Poisons act includes the following substances in schedule 9 (prohibited drugs):

ALKOXYAMPHETAMINES AND BROMO-SUBSTITUTED ALKOXYAMPHETAMINES except where separately specified in Schedule 9.
* ALKOXYPHENETHYLAMINES AND ALKYL-SUBSTITUTED ALKOXYPHENETHYLAMINES except where separately specified in Schedule 9.

Therefore, analogues of many of the PIHKAL substances are covered, but certainly not all, including analogues of MDXX compounds not specified elsewhere in the SUSDP or Poisons Act (schedules 8 or 9), unless one stretched the above chemical description very broadly to apply to MDXX substances.

The Misuse of Drugs act talks of the following chemicals:

60. HALLUCINOGENIC SUBSTANCES (structurally derived from methoxyphenethylamine)

131. PSYCHOTOMIMETIC SUBSTANCES (structurally derived from methoxyphenethylamine)


Therefore, in my view, unless the SUSDP does make provision for analogues, then in WA at least, unless your substance is specifically scheduled (in the SUSDP or in the WA legislation), or is structurally derived from alkoxy PEA's or amphetamines (the 2-C series are the classic examples of these) then the substance is not illegal.

The following rather aged NSW Court of Appeal decision is somewhat relevant to the discussion:

http://www.austlii.edu.au//cgi-bin/d...y lethylamine

If the above is correct, both the phthalimidopropiophenone and 4-fluoromethamphetamine appear to be currently legal in WA. Thanks for your comments Tabaluga.

 

[Doooofus]

I wonder if this range of products would be half as popular if the quality of MDMA street pills wasn't so shit right now. I don't know about anyone else, but I've been burnt with bunk pills 3 times this year - at least with this range I know I'm going to get something out of them (even if it is permanent, irreversible DA downregulation Jokes, jokes...)

Thankyou War on Drugs!

 

[Biscuit]

Congratulations to P_D and Dr_P and everyone else involved in this behind the scenes. This is really really interesting information.


Tabaluga: Can you provide some references and sections to the regulations and Commonwealth Criminal Code you have mentioned. If customs do have analgoue laws/regulations then the argument is over as to whether importation is legal.

P_D: I would argue all substances presently identified are legal in WA assuming the qualifier I mentioned is in fact the case. Alkoxy amphets or alkoxy PEAs is fairly specific and I do not believe would cover methylmethcathinone, for example.

 

[rogan]

Another report of IV use, wasn't me - a friend, tried to talk him out of it. Anyway started off with about a 1/5 of a Spirit, he really enjoyed it and from where I was sitting it looked pretty mild. Had a larger shot which he got a good rush off. Didn't notice any side effects different to those I was getting from snorting them.

 

[antheads]

during research i have definelty found the method of ingestion is half the addiction. This is something that has yet to be fully embraced by the profesional harm reduction communities who tend to blanket focus on just the substance. I would be very interested in reading any studies on any substance that break down method of usage in their results on toxicology, side effects or addiction patterns etc.
In fact i would strongly argue that changing a users method of ingestion to a more benign form, say orally, is a valid and needed form of harm reduction that needs to be expored further.

 

[Splatt]

rogan: a Spirit apparently is just 4-Methylmethcathinone.. which would of been the only water soluable product (besides Metamfepramone) after filtering that I saw injected without much results.... did tyhe spoon leave a whole bunch of shit on it or did he jusat not filter?

 

[weewaa]

hello
will you get the effect from these if you're on anti depressents?
also, can u take them and consume alcohol?

Thanks =)