Opioids Need help transitioning away from methadone

[LivingOnValium]

Can someone confirm that you can take Methadone if you took Oxy earlier? (Targin)

The naloxone in targin goes in your gut where enzymes and stomcah acid render it completely inactive. It's put in targin only prevent abuse. If some snorts or shoots targin the naloxone will make them go to an instant withdrawal. But since you use as it supposed to use there no zero (nada) risk to anything negative to happen. You can take your methadone, be happy and dont worry about it. You can evn take targin and methadone at the same time, which i dont suggest doing unless you're tolerant abuser (like 90% of us)). That make you surely catch a nod.

 

[SummerTaylour]

Hey @SummerTaylour and welcome to the community! We're happy to have you here and happy to try to help you out.

First off, I'm not chastising you in any way, but you somehow managed to start the Methadone program without knowing literally anything about the drug or the program and how either is truly meant to work, or more importantly, how they actually work. I'm a little bit puzzled by this, but it's as much the fault of the clinic as it is yours that you do not know these things.

Opioids are interchangeable. With limited, subtle differences Opioids can be substituted in for one another to arrest withdrawal and likewise, they can all be used to increase a general, continuing tolerance to Opioids. Yes, this is just a fact, Methadone will indeed increase your tolerance to Opioids and again, I'm a little blown away that this was somehow lost on you all the way through thinking about doing Methadone, to enrolling, to actually interacting with clinic staff and counselors wihout somehow learning the most basic characteristics of the treatment in which you're engaged.

The most important difference between Opioids is going to be their potency. On one end of this spectrum, you're going to find subtstances like Codeine, Tramadol (Ultram), Kratom (Mitragynine) etc. and on the other end of this spectrum you will find the substances like Morphine/Heroin, Hydromorphone, Methadone and of course, Fentanyl. There are many, many other Opioids out there, but that's not really important right now.

Straight-up, Methadone is one of the heavier Opioid agonists out there, commonly available. Why did Methadone end up being THE chosen Opioid for replacement therapy for decades? It really had little to do with anything other than the relatively long duration of action possessed by Methadone. This allowed it to be administered to addicts once per day as opposed to what would likely be at least 3 spaced doses per day of Morphine/Heroin.

Your comment postualting that "the clinic wants you to be addicted to high doses to Opiods basically for immoral rreasons and/or financial gain" is one you will hear day in and day out at any Methadone Program in literally any part of the world... that I have been to. Cambodia. Iraq. I was not on Methadone per se in these places, but I kind of found myself, as addicts do, slowly weaseling out the location of the Clinic in each area just as a general bazaar for drugs and exotic animals and the like. In my opinion, this is very often true. The principles of these places, at the end of the day, is to make certain that everyone is paid and living their proper lifestyle before takine legitimate, sincere concer for some random drug addicts. Yes, it's portrayed as tne polark opposite. Drug rehabiliation as an industry in the United States (only space I can properly speak for many) is in many ways just as twisted and evil as our convict rehabilitaion schemes whic, being far from a tranquil, healing experince, often entails bein on guard every minute of every hour of every day lest you be raped until you're so loose you can't practically be raped by anyone anymore. It's at this point, that the person would take on some kind of "senior position" if you will, in that they wil complete tasks so banal, yet so horrifyingly violent

Dude. You’re coming off a bit condescending. Yeah, the clinic should’ve explained a lot more and I should’ve asked a lot more questions. I’m a young adult looking for help, and I wrongfully assumed that they actually wanted to help me. Get off your high horse. I was desperate to get away from having to deal with shitty, money hungry drug dealers always racking up prices on me and spending my whole check just to not get sick.

 

[Keif' Richards]

@SummerTaylour

Well I'm very sorry that I came off that way, as it was sincerely not my intention in any way to condescend to you.

Whe I said "welcome to the community, we are happy to have you", that is exactly what I meant. I really apologize if you were made to feel that way, just please not that this is not my intention.

I hate text. It's so easy to misconstrued meaning. I really was trying to say it's the clinics responsibility to educate you. Yes, you could have done some personal research prior to enrolling, but whatever, it is not your responsibility to know.

I promise I'm on no "high horse" other than having been through the wringer with the clinic system on multiple occasions. I was only trying to be blunt in my explanation. They are often degrading, shifty places where not everyone is totally committed to "progress".

You didn't do anything wrong and I didn't think you did in the first place. I really felt bad for you

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Ive heard the clinic system in America is pretty horrible. I hope you can reduce the dose by your own choice. If you cant well, time to burn the place. (jk)

 

[Keif' Richards]

Ive heard the clinic system in America is pretty horrible. I hope you can reduce the dose by your own choice. If you cant well, time to burn the place. (jk)

Yes, that's pretty accurate. Like a lot of what other people on this Earth would consider essential services cost money in this country. There are "public" clinics, fed by taxes and the like, in areas where dope has been more entrenched for longer periods. New York City, Baltimore, Boston... these places will all have public clinics and in general, these operate in a more efficient and sympathetic way. If you go out west where the Opioid problem is fairly new, most of the clinics are for-profit enterprises.

It's pretty bad.

 

[OpiateKiller]

I remember I no showed my
Therapist and clinic from 120 mg daily I called her three weeks later and her first words were, “are you alive?”

And that sums up for profit clinics in America

 

[StickyStyrofomeCup]

The naloxone in targin goes in your gut where enzymes and stomcah acid render it completely inactive. It's put in targin only prevent abuse. If some snorts or shoots targin the naloxone will make them go to an instant withdrawal. But since you use as it supposed to use there no zero (nada) risk to anything negative to happen. You can take your methadone, be happy and dont worry about it. You can evn take targin and methadone at the same time, which i dont suggest doing unless you're tolerant abuser (like 90% of us)). That make you surely catch a nod.

Oh yeah thank you. I’ve read that same thing except they said going over 40mg Targin (20mg naloxone) can cause withdrawals.

And it says on the leaflet that it isn’t suitable for opioid tolerant people as it can cause withdrawals and diarrhoea.

So my questions are. Is there’s absolutely nothing to worry about with the Naloxone in it?

I’ve read it’s a lot less enjoyable than regular OxyCodone with the same MG and same modified release?

Also is it safe to crush and dilute in a shot glass for oral consumption?

 

[StickyStyrofomeCup]

Yaa was

Opioids mess up your body's hormone levels specially in the long run, this makes men put on more weight than ever expected from not eating more. I had it even from morphine, was always a lean guy but now I have this typical beer belly.. and morphine isn't as suppressive as methadone is, probably.
Besides that, yeah opiates are sedatives and make you comfortable doing nothing, this also contributes to weight gain of course.

Pregabalin isn't the worst thing to get off opioids. But the real deal imo are NMDA antagonists, dissociatives, they just erase your tolerance and withdrawal if you weren't tolerant to them in the first line.

Yeah I understand all of that thank you. But in my opinion Methadone is a lot worse because it makes so much more comfortable doing nothing compared to Oxys and Smack, it’s harder to kick because of the long half-life. Also it raises tolerance to a point where you can’t get enjoy your favourite opioids by then self.

Thanks btw appreciate it

 

[StickyStyrofomeCup]

What do you mean? No risk of precipitated withdrawal like with buprenorphine. Risk of other things however, like accidental overdose.

What I mean is the question I asked?

Alright lad thanks. So the Naloxone in Targin doesn’t block any opioids taken before or after?

 

[Nas47]

What I mean is the question I asked?

Alright lad thanks. So the Naloxone in Targin doesn’t block any opioids taken before or after?

Naloxone in Targin does nothing till you just pop the pill.You can crush it,if you want more rapid onset and pop it.But you cannot take a lot of this at once.Too much naloxone in it.You can take a lot if you heavily dependent on stronger opioids.Me personally have terrible precipitate withdrawl,while taking it together with certain antibiotic.Never had only oxy,but if the effect is similar like this targins,then this oxy is weak stuff.Dhc affect me much more strongly

 

[StickyStyrofomeCup]

So can anyone tell me if popping over 40mg Targin (20mg Naloxone) causes precipitated withdrawals because of the Naloxone?

Can someone please tell me how much mgs of Targin you can take before the Naloxone gets to high of a dose and causes precipitated withdrawals?

 

[Nas47]

So can anyone tell me if popping over 40mg Targin (20mg Naloxone) causes precipitated withdrawals because of the Naloxone?

Can someone please tell me how much mgs of Targin you can take before the Naloxone gets to high of a dose and causes precipitated withdrawals?

I personally never had over 20mg naloxone orally.Bioavailability(oral) of this is about 3-4 percent.Make a count.Cant do much of this at once.For pain supressions this targins are ok.For getting high not very.

 

[Jen X]

They are adding Naloxone to oxy now? You would think with the fentanyl on the streets that they would be making it easier to find clean drugs.

Go slow with methadone, i quit last summer and ended up on fentanyl now back on methadone. So don't do that.

 

[Spinderellaspin]

@SummerTaylour

Well I'm very sorry that I came off that way, as it was sincerely not my intention in any way to condescend to you.

Whe I said "welcome to the community, we are happy to have you", that is exactly what I meant. I really apologize if you were made to feel that way, just please not that this is not my intention.

I hate text. It's so easy to misconstrued meaning. I really was trying to say it's the clinics responsibility to educate you. Yes, you could have done some personal research prior to enrolling, but whatever, it is not your responsibility to know.

I promise I'm on no "high horse" other than having been through the wringer with the clinic system on multiple occasions. I was only trying to be blunt in my explanation. They are often degrading, shifty places where not everyone is totally committed to "progress".

You didn't do anything wrong and I didn't think you did in the first place. I really felt bad for you

I agree that communicating through written or typed messages is can cause so many problems. Someone will read a message and assume the vibe behind it or think there's some type of bs attached . We can not hear a person's tone through typed messages. If you notice when we assume something of others, 90% of the time it's something negative we assume of them. I've been trying to assume people are coming from a positive place first and leave it at that. If they end up confirming their being negative, than I'll deal with it. A lot of people are quick to feel like they need to defend themselves also, when really they could just let it go. I do get what your saying about him not being real informed on the ways of the clinic. I know for me, when I did intake at the clinic I go to, years ago, I felt like they were saying 'blah..blah...blah' as I was doing everything I could to just make it through the paperwork and at the time rambling on and on they put me through before I could dose and feel a bit better. I dont remember what they said and I just signed shit to get it done and over with. Sad but facts of the matter. I dont know one person that has started at the clinic while in withdrawal that can focus on everything that is being said. Would depend on who is doing intake at the clinic too. Not everyone does their job the way it's supposed to be done. But hey, we still are in charge of our life at these clinics and it's our rite to know everything we can about our care plan. I cant believe this person's clinic is still open if they dont discuss with the patient what dose their on, when its changing, etc. That is flat out crazy. I cant dose at my clinic with out rattling off my full name, don, client number, and current dose I'm taking. Kief Richard's, have you worked at or been a client of a clinic ever? You just seem very knowledgeable with these clinics.

 

[plumbus-nine]

So can anyone tell me if popping over 40mg Targin (20mg Naloxone) causes precipitated withdrawals because of the Naloxone?

Can someone please tell me how much mgs of Targin you can take before the Naloxone gets to high of a dose and causes precipitated withdrawals?

Naloxone is nasty stuff but orally it shouldn't work afaik but it does when intranasally administered, I learned this the hard wary. But 20mg, are they crazy? I had maybe 1mg from a tilidin pill containing 4mg naloxone and this was enough to give me a hour of pure agony even when I had no tolerance to opioids nor taken any habitually before.. I'd titrate, dilate the pill in water and use ml for ml until you know if you tolerate it.

 

[Nas47]

Naloxone is nasty stuff but orally it shouldn't work afaik but it does when intranasally administered, I learned this the hard wary. But 20mg, are they crazy? I had maybe 1mg from a tilidin pill containing 4mg naloxone and this was enough to give me a hour of pure agony even when I had no tolerance to opioids nor taken any habitually before.. I'd titrate, dilate the pill in water and use ml for ml until you know if you tolerate it.

It work also sublingual(aroun15percent BA),even oral,if you got enough.50mg oral naloxone and you got about 1mg in systemic circulation....enough to make your opioid much less active,if you are not addicted.If you are-precipitate withdrawl is probably guaranteed

 

[Keif' Richards]

I agree that communicating through written or typed messages is can cause so many problems. Someone will read a message and assume the vibe behind it or think there's some type of bs attached . We can not hear a person's tone through typed messages. If you notice when we assume something of others, 90% of the time it's something negative we assume of them. I've been trying to assume people are coming from a positive place first and leave it at that. If they end up confirming their being negative, than I'll deal with it. A lot of people are quick to feel like they need to defend themselves also, when really they could just let it go. I do get what your saying about him not being real informed on the ways of the clinic. I know for me, when I did intake at the clinic I go to, years ago, I felt like they were saying 'blah..blah...blah' as I was doing everything I could to just make it through the paperwork and at the time rambling on and on they put me through before I could dose and feel a bit better. I dont remember what they said and I just signed shit to get it done and over with. Sad but facts of the matter. I dont know one person that has started at the clinic while in withdrawal that can focus on everything that is being said. Would depend on who is doing intake at the clinic too. Not everyone does their job the way it's supposed to be done. But hey, we still are in charge of our life at these clinics and it's our rite to know everything we can about our care plan. I cant believe this person's clinic is still open if they dont discuss with the patient what dose their on, when its changing, etc. That is flat out crazy. I cant dose at my clinic with out rattling off my full name, don, client number, and current dose I'm taking. Kief Richard's, have you worked at or been a client of a clinic ever? You just seem very knowledgeable with these clinics.

Hey there. I'm just responding to stuff now, as I've been working a lot. Actually, I've just been struggling with the emotions and situations I've been experiencing in my life. I'm not gonna get into it, but everything's good, just going through some hibernating catharsis

I've been through the clinic system personally here in the United States, yes. Methadone was what I used to originally transition away from Heroin. Here are two sides to the argument of how the clinics operate or more like different perspectives. Methadone helped me greatly. I don't know if I could have ever been successful going from dope to complete sobriety. I actually doubt it to my core. Addiction and dependence to drugs does terrible things to our personalities. It does things that are quite obvious, that both we and others are clearly aware of, but the damage is often much deeper than anyone is aware of. I am only saying that we start to crystallize our behavior around ensuring a consistent supply. Blame is a big thing and I think the clinics get a lot of it.

There are people in the clinics trying to get better. There are people at the clinics who think they are getting better who are absolutely not. There are people at the clinic who joined expressly so they could get their Opioids covered by the state so they could just go crazy on Crack and Booze. This is a fallacy, as we all know there's no limit to the amount of Crack a person can consume, often defying science, medicine and reason in the process. They end up more addicted to rocks, heavily dependent upon ever-increasing levels of Methadone and once they come-to to any degree, they're like "what the fuck have I done, I am in a seriously dark and deep corner now". This often kicks in the whole "blame" thing. The clinic does this, the clinic does that, they cut my dose because I was drunk... assholes.

I've been there myself. I'm not better than any of those folks. I totally by random circumstance decided to take it to the next level with my sobriety. To me, that means Methadone, Cannabis, Gabapentin, Clonidine, Herbal Supplements, Vitamins and Kale. I'm still on a shit load of substances, but my life is completely different. My point is, there are people looking down on me saying "can you believe this asshole? When is he gonna 'get it'".

This quickly turned into a rambling demonstration of how obsessed with myself I am. Maybe my first lesson for the day. My point is, the Methadone Clinics have some serious shortcomings and accountability is a pretty serious issue, as there is a significant disparity in resources devoted to "controlling the supply of Methadone properly" as opposed to "providing care in good faith to patients".

I think Methadone maintenance can be like a gangrenous limb. It's a really difficult decision as you are totally sure that you don't want to learn to do things left-handed, but if you don't make that decision, it could corrupt the whole system irreversibly. This is not universal. OF COURSE, there are people who will live their best life being on Opioids forever. People want different things and I by no means think that life can't be complete dealing with the clinic system.

The harsh truth is, even the worst of the worst, private, for-pay clinics will have you receiving take home medication within months, in present times, even a shorter duration is possible. The folks who go to the clinic every day for years, sadly, are often making that situation for themselves. They then have to deal with the bullshit every 24 hours, every day before work, with their kids, whatever the fuck. How would you now start to resent such a place?

 

[pbuilder]

Why is methadone so potent though? I feel like my tolerance wasn’t even that high beforehand. Why would they want you to have such a sky high tolerance?? That freaks me out

They don’t necessarily WANT you to have a sky high tolerance, but they do want you to be on enough methadone that:

A) You don’t experience any withdrawals in the 24 hours folllwing each dose; as if you are experiencing withdrawals, that means cravings, and that means potentially relapsing back on street oxy 30mg’s aka fentanyl or whatever other street dope you do.

B) The methadone is working well enough that it takes away any cravings for other opiates and satisfies that lust for other full agonist opiates.

C) The methadone is effectively “blocking” or making the use of other street opiates pretty pointless, thus reinforcing the idea that relapsing on heroin/fetty/pressed 30’s is a waste of money and thus you stay clean and sober more likely as apart of your MAT treatment. Studies show methadone doses below 60mg have quite a bit higher relapse rates for street opiates as well as just deciding to leave the clinic and go back to active addiction in the street. Where as 60mg+ doses have higher adherence rates to just sticking to the clinic and not relapsing on street dope which let’s be honest, these days every time you use street fentanyl of unknown potency you are playing Russian roulette with your life.

 

[Nas47]

as i know across Europe is around 40-50mg daily is optional form of program....and in the documents are shown ,that must not exceed 1-2 years,except in case in some populations and abusers

 

[Dextro .45]

Reduce 1mg daily if I could….getting off Methadone 80mg daily

probably slow it down around 10-20mg

10 and below maybe + jumping off, I’d need Clonidine 0.1mg, Diazepam 5/10mg, Indica cannabis, Pregabalin 150mg,