Need Advice, recently busted and turned informant (maybe)

zackkurt82

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Oct 27, 2009
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Hey I need advice. I realize no one is a lawyer here but I am curious to see if anyone has been or know someone who has been in a similar situation. I met someone to make a purchase more than 25 oxy pills for myself to use when my insurance ran out. It turns out the person I was buying from was a cop and i was cuffed and brought into an unmakred car where they told me that if i cooperate and bust 3 suppliers I could go off pretty much scott free. Once I told them I knew a guy who worked at a pharmacy that was ripping it off they were foaming at the mouth. Anyways they let me go without writing a citation or anything. All they did was take my name, address, phone number (they did take my money :( )and told me to come to their offices next week to discuss the matter and sign a some legal work regarding being an informant. So that is where I am right now. I am clueless as to whether they are truely going to let me go without at hitch when all is said and done. I am also worried that ratting on this guy could come back to haunt me since he knows the general vicinity where I live and it will not be confidential. The court papers will reveal my name when he is arrested. So I am asking not so much if I should snitch or not but more about whether people have got off with no legal trouble by cooperating in this manner. If i can put this behind me with just some money lost and a little bit of informant work that would be amazing.
 
Keep in mind that police are allowed to lie to suspects and often do. You may end up "cooperating" with them, putting your life and the lives of those around you at risk, and still end up facing charges. [can't say this part - see forum guidelines sticky post - thanks, johnny1] at least be smart enough to discuss this with an attorney and not to make any statements/sign anything/agree to do anything without your attorney present.
 
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^ Agreed, get a lawyer ASAP. There may be elements of the reverse-sting that will result in a dismissal. I would suggest saying nothing more to law enforcement until you retain counsel.
 
Yes, definitely talk to a lawyer to make sure there is more to this than simply taking police at their word. A lawyer will help you to think this whole thing through too, without police pressure, because let's face it -- the police have their own interests to look after and are not necessarily your best advocate. That's not to say they aren't offering you a good deal, though. It's just that it's almost always best to get an informed outside opinion in these situations.
 
Lawyer advice

Saying "get a lawyer" is easier said than done. One, it costs money i dont have. More importantly lets face it, the cops have an open and shut case against me. I was caught buying drugs red handed. When I went it, I asked them what would happen if I asked to see a lawyer, they told me they might as well book me since the lawyer will tell me not to talk and their ability to use me as informant goes down the drain. True, I only have their word which isnt much, but I have a solid job and a family to worry about. By snitching, they are giving me the opportunity to let this thing disappear. My case never gets filled and years from now I can look back and say it was all just a bad dream and nothing more. To think that I got caught buying drugs and I have the chance to get off by cooperating is almost an offer I can refuse. If anyone else thinks different please feel free to post.
 
You could always consult a lawyer without the knowledge of LE, just to guide you through whatever deal may be on the table right now. I realize it's easy to say "get a lawyer," but the pitfalls of failing to negotiate this situation as best you can could--down the road--make a legal retainer look like a pittance.
 
The times I've gotten a lawyer they were able to give me a payment plan so I wouldn't have to pay everything up front. [OK folks, we're here for legal advice about the situation--not to argue the ethical implications--thanks :)] I knew a guy who got popped and he became an informant. He eventually had to move to a different town because EVERYONE knew about it. He even received death threats on numerous occasions 8o You say you have a family to worry about, they may be safer if you DON'T become an informant.

Those cops don't care about you, all they care about is making their quota.

Just sayin'



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[Again, let's try to suspend judgment and offer practical advice--thanks]

Regardless of whether you cooperate or not, you need an attorney. You may regret it for the rest of your life if you do this on your own just to save a few bucks.




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There are such things as court appointed lawyers that don't cost anything or much. My friend called around the local courthouse and found one to represent him in a weed case and it only cost him a few hundred bucks. If they didn't write you a citation on the spot, how can they write one later? That's a lotta heresy imo but I could be wrong, there could be video documentation of it or a supervising officer could be on the spot. Do you know who set you up? It doesn't sound very likely you came upon an undercover without the help from someone outside the force.... [edited].
 
I don't know where you live but in New York they always ask you to RATT on other people,Never let you go if they plan on charging you and 25 oxy pills is something that should not even be considered a major concern especially if you had a past presciption for them---------And they took your money, did they give you a property slip? Something is not right. If anything,(unless you have a seriously flawed past record) where I am you would be ACD'd which means that if you don't get in anymore trouble in the time frame they give you, your case will be dismissed. Don't let them scare you as the judge is not going to waste tax payers money feeding you in jail especially for an addictive presciption that ran out. Be careful talking about that though as they might send you to a program and that keeps your case active a pain in the ass long time. (your honor I'm still in so much pain but my insurance ran out, I'm sorry) case dismissed---IN MY OPINION OF COURSE
 
An initial consultation with a lawyer will be free, and confidential. Sit down, explain that you're interested, possibly, in retaining representation, and state the facts of the case. Ask what he thinks he can do for you, or why he thinks you should hire him. If the answers sound good, discuss price. If not, you can leave.

Bring up your concerns about safety and confidentiality as well. It may be that the police could use you without ever divulging your name.

I understand the reluctance to find and talk to a lawyer. It's a new and unfamiliar process, and even thinking about all this makes you uncomfortable. But trust me, you'll feel better if you get into it and talk to an attorney.
 
Let me clarify a few things...I have no previous criminal record, they did not write me a citation on the spot and have yet to, they took the money and I signed a paper to forfeit it. So again I have not been arrested or cited, I was allowed to go home that day with the promise I would come in the next day to talk. This is in a big city in california. As for the guy I may potentially rat out, he isnt some gangster, or at least I dont think he is. He is a guy appears to work in a hospital who some how gets connected at work. So I dont know how much I have to fear about retaliation. As for the lawyer, I cant get a court appointed lawyer, because I havent been cited or arrested. I am still a little torn. If I rat this guy out, I am pretty much off scott free. The cops I am dealing with are a task force that appear to be looking for bigger fish such as dirty doctors and pharmacists, so there interest in me seems small. But then again, I may be wrong.
 
I think what people are trying to tell you is: (1) you may not be in as dire a situation as the police have told you that you are -- you might be able to get drug diversion or another favorable result just by working with a private lawyer or even the public defender; and (2) that your setting up the pharmacist for arrest doesn't automatically mean the police will keep their word unless there is an agreement in writing that a lawyer you hire has checked out.
 
MODS - I am not trying to take this away from a legal discussion and make it a moral/ethical one. My point of bringing up all the moral and ethical points is to give perspective to how the cops most likely will view the OP. So please if you are going to edit this post at least leave the basic premise of the ethical and moral stand's I make.


OP - Just to reiterate what I believe you are saying - You sold oxy to someone who turned out to be a cop. The cop takes you to the car and takes your money and you sign a forfeit for the money. Was that all that was? A paper saying "i give these cops permission to take my money" and nothing else to it? Was it linked to a police report and any info on you already admitting to becoming an informant?

Before or after giving this money away, you tell the cops your hook up :)X) and then they say if you become an informant they will make a deal with you to help you get off easier if you cooperate. To do this you need to go to court and fill out paperwork related to becoming an informant. In addition you need to put all your trust and hope in these cops that they will stay true to their word and will not just say forget the informant idea and bust your dealer that you ratted on and also bust you for all you're worth.

They already got what they wanted from you for free, you selling the drug to them and you tell them who you got it from and where he gets it from; the pharmacist employee is one, the other is the pharmacist/hospital itself. They will at least get some flack from this because a pharmacist employee shouldn't be easily able to obtain illegal drugs at all let alone in a quantity to deal it from. [edited]

Cops don't see anything special in you. They see another drug dealer that fucked up and they used tactics that they are trained to use to get as much info out of you for free as they possibly can, typically in most cases by using lots of fear. You get a lawyer and you are going to go down hard. Like the cops even said they won't be on your side if this happens. And since it will be your voice vs. theirs, they will win since they have all the evidence they need against you - a sale to an undercover.

Furthermore they have close to the same evidence against some compassionate person who's life you decided to ruin. If your dealer really has been getting his supply from the pharmacy he works at, he will very likely get caught. They have numerous check's and balances in place to be able to track down discrepancies and the few way's that you can circumvent these are easy to hone in on and become more aggressive if they suspect to catch someone. In this case they even know who to suspect, the person you narc'd probably already has enough evidence against him to put him behind bars. They are just going to play you out until the end, probably gathering more evidence/monitoring on who you ratted and will move onto them next.

So say you bring up the person you ratted out in court as evidence that you cooperated as an informant, and in turn should be let off of the offense against you. Think about what they can do to counter this. They have all the power and you have none, and to trust a cop who is trying to do a big part of his job - catching drug dealers and their purchasers. So far they caught the purchaser who has given away the dealer and also his money, all without any fight or hassle. Why not go after both of you with everything they have and the benefits it will give towards their job? Just like any other job, when you do what is asked of you and do it well you move forward. Making a suspected dealer turned purchaser an informants and not actually convicting them for the crime they committed only makes sense in the law enforcement career if it greatly helps them. This help comes from the amount and validity of information you are able and willing to give out.

In other words, unless they feel you could give more people away and mess up their lives too, the alternative is to just hit you with everything they got and use your scared rambling talk in the car as more evidence to go after the dealer also with everything they got. Which most likely will be months and months of monitoring/spying by the local law enforcement's tactical narcotic's team and detectives inside and outside the team. This is in hopes that they can catch any purchasers or possible dealers from the poor soul you ratted on.

They could bust you for the whole crime [edited, sorry]. The person you ratted, you are taking someone's career and life and destroying that. This person had the compassion to give you a drug you are hooked on in a time of need because your insurance ran out.

I am on a narcotic a little stronger than Oxycontin and I understand how horrible the withdrawal's can be, it's hell on earth. You were facing this and this person had the heart to risk his job and his life's further opportunities (even though at the time you probably played "such a good friend" that this didn't really come to mind - like i'm sure he'll wish it had in retrospect) to help you out.

Maybe it's because he had the understanding and compassion and sympathy that most people wouldn't for someone facing your future of being without your scripts. I've faced it many many times, and some people have been angels in my life and go the extra mile to do what they can to not have me suffer. I have a severe back problem and pain from a botched surgery at 15 yrs old that tried to fix a bone deformity. I have been on heavy narcotics for a long time because of it. I don't sell them, i just take to much of the amount prescribed to me sometimes because of the severity of the pain. People help me out in these times. I had a time not to long ago like you were I ran out of insurance and had a loving friend give me enough opies to make a logical taper regimen. They even came over and dispensed the day's worth so I wouldn't have so much craving with it not even being available. And the anger I have knowing that their are the people like you that will turn around and ruin their lives for it. These cops don't see it this way, and apparently neither do you with the actions you've already taken and the ones you plan to take for the good of you and your family. And you would rather put your trust into the cops, the one's who have all the power to destroy your special life w/kids and job (like the power they will use when they destroy the life of the guy with a career at a pharmacy, probably went to college to get into that career, who knows might have a wife and kids JUST LIKE YOU).

I am not trying to take this away from a legal discussion and make it a moral/ethical one. My point of bringing up all the moral and ethical points and my personal stance on the issue is one, because I am in much of the same position as the OP, and two, to give perspective to how the cops will see the OP. Why wouldn't they see you just like they see the dealer you got your stuff from? The dealer cared for your wellbeing. You couldn't care less about his. What makes you think the cops will care about yours?

From the experience of an old friend who had the same thing happen - they decide to use you as an informant (as in have you sign the papers following legal standards to label you in court as an informant and use your testimonies and call you forth) they will do this only if they really think you have a lot of valid info that they could use for evidence in convicting person/people. This evidence typically needs to be stuff they couldn't have found without you're information, otherwise what use are you to them.

In most cases informants aren't even needed in court for the conviction of people that the informant ratted out, in fact it's preferred by law enforcement and detectives that they just catch the person you narc'd on with actual evidence alone and not hearsay from a dealer/purchaser turned informant, since that holds a whole lot less validity than catching the informant's rat red handed. Also this allows you to still not be labeled in the streets as an informant, which you see as a plus just like they will. The possibility that they can catch you later on and use you as an informant all over again, since they know you could care less about anyone but yourself when it comes to doing illegal activities and will gladly drop some names of people that are hooking you up if the possibility of making this an "old bad dream" is there.

Just for advice i recommend you put this post also in the "drug culture" room or "philosophy and spirituality" and see what some people have to say about the [position you are considering taking]. Just my 2 cents..
 
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^ This post is spot on ^ [refers to my post, above -Johnny1]

I'd like to know what the charge would be. Is 25 oxy even a felony? If it isn't then the cops really don't have that much leverage against you. Is possession of 25 pills considered "intent to distribute"? If it isn't then I think you're probably looking at a misdemeanor charge. Regardless of the charge, get a lawyer YESTERDAY and DON'T fuckin' rat on anybody. Sure the guy you bought from may not be a gangster, but how do you know he doesn't know any gangsters?

The California prisons are full of murderers, rapists, and big-time drug dealers. You're just a little fish. If this truly is your first offense you'll most likely get a slap on the wrist.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. You can keep arguing with everyone or accept the fact that maybe, just maybe the people here are trying to help keep you from making a huge mistake. Think about it.
 
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I think what people are trying to tell you is: (1) you may not be in as dire a situation as the police have told you that you are -- you might be able to get drug diversion or another favorable result just by working with a private lawyer or even the public defender; and (2) that your setting up the pharmacist for arrest doesn't automatically mean the police will keep their word unless there is an agreement in writing that a lawyer you hire has checked out.

I'd listen to Johnny if I were you. He's exactly correct. The police are well known for their shady tactics to flip people and they never have to stick to their word. They could be feeding you a load of shit.

Talk to a lawyer, the first chat is always free and then they give you an estimate on how much they want to charge. Don't let those pigs convince you that you need to narc some poor dude out who doesn't have it coming to him.

Stop snitching, it never does anyone any good unless you're in it for the long haul.
 
I talked to a lawyer and he told me to cooperate. So I will go ahead and snitch. Dont give me this moral crap about snitching, you all would turn in a second if it meant avoiding jail time.
 
Let me clarify a few things...I have no previous criminal record, they did not write me a citation on the spot and have yet to, they took the money and I signed a paper to forfeit it. So again I have not been arrested or cited, I was allowed to go home that day with the promise I would come in the next day to talk. This is in a big city in california. As for the guy I may potentially rat out, he isnt some gangster, or at least I dont think he is. He is a guy appears to work in a hospital who some how gets connected at work. So I dont know how much I have to fear about retaliation. As for the lawyer, I cant get a court appointed lawyer, because I havent been cited or arrested. I am still a little torn. If I rat this guy out, I am pretty much off scott free. The cops I am dealing with are a task force that appear to be looking for bigger fish such as dirty doctors and pharmacists, so there interest in me seems small. But then again, I may be wrong.

This is a peculiar situation indeed. NO CITATION; NO ARREST. Were SWIM in your position, a FREE legal consultation regarding this matter would be a first priority.

Did you get any of the "officer's" information? A business card or anything? If you've not been cited, or charged, what's their guarantee of retaining your help if YOU don't know who you're dealing with? For that matter, how can YOU be sure they were actually law enforcement officers? Don't take this the wrong way, but it wouldn't be the first time anyone had ever pretended to be the cops and robbed people to boost their finances or inventory...

Anyway, they said come back to talk to them the next day... Are you supposed to turn yourself in at that point if you decide not to cooperate with them and play their "roll over" game? If you choose the path less taken, and decide to play their game, are you even going to be able to produce the results they want? In your original post, you said you had to help them bust three suppliers to get off "pretty much scott free." That's some shaky wording. Get that part in writing, because you're going to need it. That's the bad news.

SWIM is not trying to discredit you or the experience you've stated here, but maybe being able to walk away from a situation like this and have the opportunity to CHOOSE your level of involvement in this type of activity is a chance for you to figure out what's right and what's not. In the grand scheme of things what you did is probably small potatoes compared to what they'd deem a "big bust," and in all probability, they probably let you go because they bust so many people in a day with their little pharmaceutical hustle, that even if they don't book every single person they snare, they're still getting closer TO that "big bust." That's the good news.

Just the same, your main concern should be trying to make sure that this situation doesn't come back to haunt you at a later date, because it might be quite embarrassing to randomly get arrested, which is why even talking to a lawyer might be the best decision you can make. It'd be worth the money to even pay for one if you didn't end up in Federal prison, don't you think?
 
I'm looking into going in to law. I'm still in college, so I'm by no means an expert. But I do know for a fact that cops will manipulate you any way they can.

I know this is irrelevant to the initial question, but it will definitely make you think (and this story comes straight from a detective's mouth):
There was a robbery, and the suspect was caught and "interviewed." The detective essentially told him 'the family you robbed are very upset with you ... blah, blah, blah. If you want to make things right, I'd advise you to write an apology stating it was nothing personal.'

The apology the guy ended up writing (mind you, it was in his own hand writing and had his signature on it) was used to convict him in court because it was actually a written confession.

P.S. this wasn't a one time thing; the detective worked something like 1200+ cases and this was one of his go-to methods to get a confession. There's a link somewhere on the internet for it. And no, it's not some bull shit clip I saw on YouTube haha. It was during a lecture at a graduate law school where the professor AND a very experienced detective agreed "don't ever talk to the police without a lawyer if you're a potential suspect."


P.P.S. for future reference, when police "interview" you as a potential suspect, it isn't an interview..it's an interrogation. Interrogation has such a negative connotation, so police/detectives/whatever use the term interview because it's such a softer, more comfortable term.
 
I talked to a lawyer and he told me to cooperate. So I will go ahead and snitch. Dont give me this moral crap about snitching, you all would turn in a second if it meant avoiding jail time.

You're wrong there, buddy. There is something called taking personal responsibility for your actions. Many of us, including myself, would rather do a little time [and the point is made]



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