National Database for OTC Products

[footscrazy]

footscrazy made mention of (what seemed to be a victorian) scheme that appeared to be a larger database, but i'm not aware that we've had any updates or further information on that. i think mr blonde may have mentioned this recently?
i'm very curious to know more about what happened there, i'm not sure if there was an update at any point?

When this happened I was stocking up on a couple of boxes of codeine to take overseas with me and I'm still overseas, so I haven't had anymore experience with this in Melbs yet. It def didn't seem good though - the first time I got my details recorded and he said it'd come up everywhere I was at my usual local chemist. The way he said it made me think, but I figured he just recognised me from coming in a bit and was pissed my details hadn't been recorded before. That was the first time my ID had been recorded there. When that purchase came up, I was in a chemist ( a small asian run independent chemist) about 30 mins from there, in a suburb I never normally visit - the only reason I was there was that I'd been given a gift voucher for a shop closeby for christmas. Maybe I was unlucky and these two seemingly unrelated chemists were somehow connected, but it seems unlikely to me.

I pretty much agree with spacejunk.... you reap what you sow. I have no problem with people enjoying codiene once a week or so, it's not my bag but each to their own. In the name of harm reduction though if you are using 3 or more times a week it is no longer a recreational activity but rather a crutch. You are on your way to becoming an addict (if you are not there already) and it is perfectly withn the job of government to protect you from yourself. Don't forget in a lot of cases they are subsidising the cost of these prescriptions with tax dollars. If you know better then by all means pay full price. The same for doctor shoppers. Trust must exist between any health professional and their patient and if you abuse this trust you are not only risking your own health but the prescribers professional livlihood.

I don't need the government to protect me from myself, what a load of bullshit. I would be happy to pay full price for regulated, legalised opiates, but at this stage, due to the ridiculous laws designed to 'protect' me, I need to either visit numerous chemists or buy dodgy smack off the street. Using codeine daily works fine for me, who is anyone else to decide that I need to stop? I've been a daily codeine user for a year (and I've used smack for 5), and was a daily meth user for many years before that, but during that time I've started my masters degree, been promoted to running the Australian division of my company, and will be moving to the US soon to launch the company there. If that's 'reaping what I sow', I have no complaints whatsoever about using codeine as my 'crutch'. Why do you?

 

[Oxycondone]

Quick question... If you get a schedule 8 medication on a private script (not PBS covered) is it currently still monitored by the same state monitoring system for PBS S8 drugs? And if so will it change with this new national system? I just realised there's a chance half of my scripts aren't even recorded.

 

[Busty St Clare]

The only difference is the government doesn't subsidise them. I'd be surprised if they don't fall under the same monitoring otherwise you would just create a doctor fed black market instead.

I don't need the government to protect me from myself,.....

Yet you still became an addict. I'm not picking on you specifically but if given your time again would you prefer a recreational habit over your daily need for drug use?

 

[footscrazy]

^ That's not a simple yes or no question. The terms 'addict' or 'recreational' aren't as clearly defined to me as the amount of times I use a week. How would you define them? For me, it's a measure of positives vs negatives. The effects of codeine daily are worth more to me than the slight withdrawal symptoms I get when I quit; whilst considering no other aspects of my life are negatively impacted either. I spend less money using codeine daily than I would on a few beers. So if the question is, all things considered, do I prefer getting high daily on codeine compared to getting high once a week? Then the answer is, of course, yes.

 

[Busty St Clare]

For me it is how it would impact on my life day to day. I am a spur of the moment guy, I don't want something holding me back. I like to travel so being able to just up and go without any concerns about sourcing or withdrawals coming into play. Alcoholics might have the same concerns if they want to travel to the Middle east as well.

I get sad when I am watching a sunset and one of my mates says, "This would be awesome tripping". Yeah it would, but you are short changing life if you cant appreciate the little things sober too. Do you feel that being high is "normal" for you where as being straight is a chore?

 

[Sustanon]

Don't want to break the code but lets just say the synth for codeine -> heroin is very basic organic chemistry, and a lot of people I know (hey it may be the circles I'm in) have never met a H connect and have only tried it through their mates synth (they did it just for a one off try, the synth was a one off and no money was exchanged, heck they may even come out better doctors for it).

Anyway bringing this back on topic, this national register would make it slightly more difficult for decent sized (commercially lucrative) portions of H to be synthed. Unfortunately I can see that leading to the possibility of synths of stronger opiates such as fentanyl which will cause A LOT MORE ODs. Thanks again government for your kind knee jerk legislating which will not only kill people but serve to raise the health care expenses in a time where economic stability is rapidly disappearing.

Good luck in obtaining the chemicals used to synth heroin from Codeine if you can even pull it off. Ive had mates talk about "home bake heroin" Every time they mention it I just laugh, someone with that much chemistry knowledge as they have would have no clue about it. Prob just crushed up morphine grey nurses (100mg) or w/e been sold at a ridiculious high price just to make a quick buck. I cant believe there injecting that shit anyway. Who knows whats in it. I certainly wouldnt put that crap into my veins. Now I understand some people might go onto harder opiates from codeine but thats not always the case. It really comes down to how educated an individual is.

Being on this forum for a few years I have learnt 100 times more than the many many years I have abused substances. Heck ur average Joe wouldnt even know what MDMA means or is or even THC/CBD etc. The more time I spend on here the more my horizons broaden and keen to try newer and newer things because I see it being talked about. Someone who is using codeine might never even know what oxy or morphine is. Heck when I started Codeine I had no clue what they were and still wouldnt know if I wasnt on this forum. I have learnt a alot of HR from this site too which I am thankful for but all this talk about substances make me want to try them. I think most people are like this.

Again I can only speak for myself. I have abused Hydromorphone, heroin, morphine, fentanyl, oxys etc but I keep going back to codeine. No other opiate matches it. Not talking about the strength as I know its very mild compared to others but the positives outweigh the negatives for me and thats what I look for if I choose to "abuse" something.

 

[Charles Bronson]

Quick question... If you get a schedule 8 medication on a private script (not PBS covered) is it currently still monitored by the same state monitoring system for PBS S8 drugs? And if so will it change with this new national system? I just realised there's a chance half of my scripts aren't even recorded.

It's almost impossible to get a schedule 8 medication on a private prescription. I take that back, one time a GP gave me 30 x 1 mg Flunitrazepam and 20 x 30 mg Codeine Phosphate. I've wondered this myself.

 

[Christ!]

if you doctor-shop, you are helping create the situation that makes it so hard for people (such as chronic pain patients) to get the medicines they need. most addicts couldn't care less, but this kind of government attention doesn't just appear because the prime minister wants to curtail your freedom - it is a response to a very real practice in the community. i'm greatly opposed to drug prohibition and the so-called war on drugs, but this is a pretty fundamental part of what the federal government is responsible for.
maybe if all of the people that try to play the system for drugs or money are stopped, more legitimate patients will have access to the medicine they need? that is the purpose of these sorts of things.
to me, the bigger issue is people who need medicine being refused it because all pain patients become guilty by association with doctor shoppers. if the situation is better monitored, perhaps this stigma will be lessened?

legislating to try and decrease prescription drugs being abused or diverted is actually a job of governments, no matter how you look at it - especially when we are talking about things that are subsidised on the PBS.
sure, i would like to be able to get my hands on more s8 pharmaceuticals, but i'm a drug addict and it is probably better for me and society if these things are restricted to folks who need them.

Agreed.

I'm surprised a system like this hasn't been implemented sooner...

Hopefully this will make it easier for pain patients and others to get the treatment they need, which I'm guessing it will. Doctor's are paranoid about prescribing stuff...at the detriment of people seeking proper treatment.

I do think the OTC codeine products should be kept out of this, but I'm not sure if that'll be the case in the long run.

I'd happily give up getting my jollies from s8 non-prescribed stuff for the greater chance of getting adequate treatment if I ever needed it in the future.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Come back to me in 18 months drug mentor and then we'll see how healthy it is compared to alcohol.

I did worse then that for years and my liver has checked out fine, so have my kidneys. Unless codeine is causing my congenital immune problems or neurological diseases, the main health issue for me has been habit wise and that hasn't had major impacts on my life.

ETA: I'm well aware that what I and others do can have health problems, particularly if the precautions we take aren't followed, but in my case through following these precautions I have not had adverse physical consequences from my use.

 

[Oxycondone]

Good luck in obtaining the chemicals used to synth heroin from Codeine if you can even pull it off.

We did codeine to morphine in my first ever university chem unit (not that they told us what the end molecule was) and morphine to heroin is a simple one step, even a hillbilly could do it. Sure I know i'm not the average joe, but anyone with the knowledge and qualification could make serious money with an operation. As for obtaining chemicals... Not only do certain establishments have everything you need, readily available (I'm not going to elaborate cause I don't want to give people ideas), EDIT: removed due to possibility of misuse. Sure I'm not talking about the average joe but there are a lot of people who I can imagine in Walter Whites shoes who could turn to this for a quick buck. Heck I know a lot of people who have, just not usually with this drug.

 

[Mr Blonde]

No more synth talk please.

 

[Charles Bronson]

Seen as I started this thread, it has gone a little bit haywire.

Regulation time.

Busty:
I disagree. The government knows what's best for me? Fuck off with that whack shit. I mean this in the nicest possible way , as in like a friend saying 'Fuck you peter puffer'. So don't blast my arse/ban me, okay?

An addict, is defined as a person who has psychological and physical dependency issues with whatever their drug of choice is. Using OTC Codeine products, 3 times a week, IMO, is not enough to warrant psychological dependency. Try 7 days per week, of OTC Codeine abuse.

Now, as for the Database for S8 and OTC products (Trust me, it certainly ain't S4 containing shit, why I was scripted 4 packets of PBS-subsidized Tramal 200 mg SR within a 12 day period), I'm sure that OTC products won't be monitored. It's all speculation at this point in time, but each pharmacy has their own rules/state and federal rules to comply with.

I think that the Database is setup in order to catch multiple doctor shopping people of all ages. Oxycodone, morphine, hydromorphone, codeine phosphate (pure form), fentanyl, methadone, buprenorphine. From these drugs, sought out most is OxyContin and MS-Contin, and the most used drugs are methadone/buprenorphine (In the form of patches). How do I know this you ask? Methadone and buprenorphine are given to approximately 2,500 people daily in Australia.

Also, I think that a lot of older people will get nailed for they are old, can lie about stuff. Shit, while waiting for my prescription today (Tramal) I sat down next to a lady, in her late-70's, and one thing led to another and she showed me a patch on her arm, Norspan 20mg patch, while waiting for another prescription for OxyContin 40 mg, twice daily. She said to me she ain't in that much pain. Go figure (skating).

Oh yeah, and synthesizing is possible, to make pure morphine/heroin, and home-baked heroin, is one of the most popular things that people do when they go to different pharmacies/doctors to get scripted codeine-containing products.

Bronson.

 

[Oxycondone]

Seen as I started this thread, it has gone a little bit haywire.

Regulation time.

Busty:
I disagree. The government knows what's best for me? Fuck off with that whack shit. I mean this in the nicest possible way , as in like a friend saying 'Fuck you peter puffer'. So don't blast my arse/ban me, okay?

An addict, is defined as a person who has psychological and physical dependency issues with whatever their drug of choice is. Using OTC Codeine products, 3 times a week, IMO, is not enough to warrant psychological dependency. Try 7 days per week, of OTC Codeine abuse.

Now, as for the Database for S8 and OTC products (Trust me, it certainly ain't S4 containing shit, why I was scripted 4 packets of PBS-subsidized Tramal 200 mg SR within a 12 day period), I'm sure that OTC products won't be monitored. It's all speculation at this point in time, but each pharmacy has their own rules/state and federal rules to comply with.

I think that the Database is setup in order to catch multiple doctor shopping people of all ages. Oxycodone, morphine, hydromorphone, codeine phosphate (pure form), fentanyl, methadone, buprenorphine. From these drugs, sought out most is OxyContin and MS-Contin, and the most used drugs are methadone/buprenorphine (In the form of patches). How do I know this you ask? Methadone and buprenorphine are given to approximately 2,500 people daily in Australia.

Also, I think that a lot of older people will get nailed for they are old, can lie about stuff. Shit, while waiting for my prescription today (Tramal) I sat down next to a lady, in her late-70's, and one thing led to another and she showed me a patch on her arm, Norspan 20mg patch, while waiting for another prescription for OxyContin 40 mg, twice daily. She said to me she ain't in that much pain. Go figure (skating).

Oh yeah, and synthesizing is possible, to make pure morphine/heroin, and home-baked heroin, is one of the most popular things that people do when they go to different pharmacies/doctors to get scripted codeine-containing products.

Bronson.

I'm kind of confused by your post on to which side (for or against) you stand on this new database system/bill... Or were you just listing arguments and points?

@Mr Blonde I apologise if I strayed to close to the line but I don't think any of us are discussing anything to do with the actual synthesis of drugs but rather synths relation to this bill and as possible advantageous benefit of the bill. (although this whole bill seems to really only affect people who cross state borders for more drugs as there are already state based monitoring systems (not always for codeine)...)

 

[spacejunk]

we all have our opinions on how governments should interact with society and individuals, but i think there is a certain naivety in thinking that they won't regulate certain things - particularly drugs that are illegal except when prescribed.

i could list dozens of things i think the government should stay out of - from horrific wars and censorship to presidential personality contests, but i'm not so far removed from reality that i think my opinion makes much difference.

yes, people should have the right to choose what they put in their bodies, but at this particular time in history that is not the case.
outrage is a great source of inspiration if you channel it right, but incoherent ramblings are simply that.

i daresay it is offensive to the victims of nazi germany to compare a country as free and prosperous as australia in 2012 to that time and place. offensive, or perhaps just ignorant.
yes, we have some silly nanny-state laws and some dinosaur politicians - but if you care so much, there are plenty of things you can do in this "democracy" to challenge that. i don't think carrying on like you're being unfairly victimised is one of these things.
those that decry the death of democracy in australia have absolutely no perspective.


it appears australia has become a nation of self-entitled whingers.

what does "peter puffer" mean? is that some backwater homophobic slur?

 

[drug_mentor]

^ I agree that it is naive to think the Government wont regulate certain things but on the same token it annoys me to see people who should know better saying the Government have the RIGHT to intervene, especially in regards to something so trivial as tri weekly codeine use, if that isn't condoning a bloody nanny state I don't know what is... 8) As a PST addict I am surprised you wouldn't see the issue I have with that bullshit mentality, its unproductive and its VERY disappointing to see it coming from someone who is not only a long term Bluelighter but works in the healthcare industry.

I don't know what peter puffer is but I would guess it basically amounts to calling somebody a cocksucker, don't know for sure though. Anyway I have contributed enough OT shit here as well as others, if we could get back on topic that would be great.

I don't personally envision a national database for OTC products coming into play any time soon and despite Footscrazys unlucky experience listed in another thread (pretty sure it got mentioned in this one too) I have bought codeine numerous times, often multiple times on the same day, since that happened with no issue. Some pharmacys definately keep track but the main one I noticed used to keep track hasn't actually recorded a purchase of mine in many months. Recently I have really noticed an easing of the restrictions that came into play on codeine, I get quizzed a lot less by pharmacists despite probably having a less presentable/well groomed appearance in recent months and have even managed to convince a couple to sell me numerous small packs when they didn't have the larger pack available, something I was refused on several occassions shortly after the implementation of the new laws.

 

[spacejunk]

^ i haven't seen any evidence that it was being used for OTC codeine use. have i missed something?
frankly, i wish i'd never had easy access to opiates in the first place.

 

[drug_mentor]

^ It seems you have, since the OP's question was about a database regulating OTC products, as it states in the title, and the quote that I took from Busty that I was taking issue with was talking about the Governments right to intervene if someone uses codeine 3 times a week, so yeah a lot of the discussion in this thread (including a large part of what my posts have been about atleast) has had to do with OTC codeine.

Anyway I took your post above mine to be addressing my post amongst others, and I don't personally like being labelled a self entitled whinger just because I have a difference of opinion on what the Government should or should not intervene in. Its pretty convenient you get your shit OTC with no scrutiny or maybe you might have a different perspective on it as well. 8) I hardly even use fucking opiates but I just think its a bit naive to think that someone "doctor shopping" for opiates to help them with psychological issues or other things you don't get scripts for but opiates have been proven to help makes someone a junkie, or that they are the problem when it comes to chronic pain patients being able to get a decent script. I think its the height of arrogance to suggest the Government intervene in other peoples affairs just because they have a level of drug use that you deem excessive, and it shits me twice as much to see drug elitism when someone wouldn't make the same statement about drinking at that frequency needing intervention.

 

[bobbydarren]

So I was reading about pharmacies and privacy laws.

Each pharmacy has a 'patient profile' and it's added to evertime you buy a Schedule3 or prescription product, along with notes [though maybe you don't get all the notes, not sure] . So I went down to local pharmacy and asked for my patient profile. It includes everything you tell them, and notes they have made about you. I have been banned from buying riko there, but because i've known this pharmacist for years and i like him i'm too embarreassed to read what he's said. I really don't want to read 'suspected drug seeker'

Anyway it's your right to ask for this patient profile and review it, and ask for changes to be made where you believe there is an error or maybe a cunt pharmacist has overstated the situation in regards to riko or codeine purchases. It is apparently your right to have this patient profile deleted also... which may come in handy.

So next I'm gonig to hit up the warehouse see what notes they got on me.

 

[drug_mentor]

^ That is very interesting to say the least, LOL there are one or two warehouses it would suit me to have my patient profile deleted but really if you have a car and don't live in a totally remote area it doesn't make much difference if one or two pharmacists have a little grudge against you.

I suppose keeping that in mind it would be less difficult to set up a nationalised database between chains than some people (including myself) may of assumed previously.

 

[spacejunk]

"self entitled whinger" was not directed at you d_m - or anyone on this board that isn't complaining about "the nazi fuhrer prime minister" or whatever. what bothers me is the level of political debate in australia, not the way everyday people go about their lives, or people on this board generally. if this wasn't made clear enough, i apologise.

yes, i know that the original thread and several posts are referring to OTC products but my understanding is that not what is (currently) being implemented.
as far as i could see, the extent of the program in question is directed at prescription, schedule 8 drugs, so this is what i have been talking about.
the federal government tightened the use of OTC codeine products in may 2010, so while it is conceivable that further restrictions could be implemented, i would be surprised if it were happening now - though of course i could be wrong.

i am not actually saying the same thing as busty, just trying to inject a little pragmatism to the debate.
we all have different takes on the issue due to personal experiences or biases, so we all come from it with a different perspective. as someone who has seen and felt the way opiates can take control of a person, i possibly have a different take to someone that has never encountered this. and by that i don't mean that the government should "protect us from ourselves" or anything like that, but just that society works the way it works. at the moment, things like addictive drugs are restricted from open use and it seemed to me that some folks can actually lose sight of that. we get complacent about loopholes - i know i sure have :/

i'm not saying that everything our government does is good (or bad) just that you can't pick and choose the good and the bad. for example, we are lucky enough to have a pretty good (and affordable) health care system in australia. the way drugs are handled (in a bureaucratic sense) is just a part of an over-arching system.
it is bigger than you or i - and sometimes, yeah, it sucks.
but i accept and understand that it exists, right or wrong. there are heaps of things wrong with it, heaps of things in this (and other systems) i would like to change.
but there are far bigger injustices in this world than whether or not "the man" keeps more of an eye on your pharmacy purchases than you'd like, that loopholes have tightened the big brother thing creeps most of us out, but it seems to be part and parcel of a technologised world.

would you prefer that we had a shonky medical system where you only got medical care if you could pay for it?
where the government had a hands-off approach and we were at the whims of the medical industry and big pharma alone?
the australian federal government has, over several generations, maintained a pretty equitable, fair system of public health. unlike countries such as the USA, where medical bills are enormous and people frequently go without medical treatment because they can't afford tens of thousands of dollars in bills. or they spend years in debt due to a $40000 medical bill.
or would you prefer a third-world medical system, where the government has little imput? sure, you can buy what you like in pharmacies, but standards are not maintained, so heaven forbid you need to go for major surgery in a hospital.
i think it is easy to lose sight of how well we have it here. yes, government involvement and interference can be a pain at times (as if they know all about you, etc) but i don't believe this has too many sinister overtones. not yet, anyway.

i understand those with really liberal points of view on the role of government in society, but i have to say i appreciate the social welfare element of the australian health system. actually - i think it is worth fighting for. much more than our right to pick up scripts without The Man looking over our shoulder. on a personal level, i take this as a sign that all hope is not lost

i'm sure addiction to things like painkillers is seen by a lot of medical professionals as a health issue, like any other health issue such as athlete's foot or arthritis. i can disagree all i like (drugs are awesome) but i can't very well change the perspective of an institution like medicine.
if the government want to "crack down on it", they will. whether they justify/spin it by saying "we are responding to the concerns of doctors", "it will take a load off the public health system", "it will save the taxpayer" or "we're tough on drugs" is up to them.

i'm not saying this is good - just that this is the way it is.