My nanna can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine!

[Sustanon]

Cheers Sustanon,
You seemed to have properly understood what I was asking
Very appreciated

No probs mate

 

[Hugs & Drugs]

^^^^ mostly every bit of speed in Aus is methamphetamine

Simple fact that it's easily manufactured from pseudo and the precursor for amphetamine aren't available

This has been stated countless times in this thread....

yes, i have seen that stated in other threads before
however i do find it hard to believe, as i have gotten speed off a few different sources, and they all smelled and felt extremely similar
unless of course all the speed i have gotten is actually meth, which would explain it
haha

the smell it quite apparent, its not a bad smell, and not really a chemical smell. it actually smells kind of natural (for lack of a better description) and not unappealing
though it burns like a virgin ass being penetrated by jesus' beef bayonet
well, maybe not that much, but it ain't the best feeling in the world
haha

does that sound like meth to you?
(sorry for the shitty description)

note: i have sourced speed in both powder and rock, besides rock being slightly more potent, they were all pretty identical
they have all also been an off-white colour, with a hint of yellow...

 

[Gormur]

meth is clear & odorless. if there's any color or odor it means whoever made it skipped a step & there's something left over in the final product. that doesn't mean it isn't meth, but it isn't pure either.. it's the dirty stuff, as some call it

i imagine a lot of the powdered meth is cut &/or poorly synthed from pseudo etc

 

[Ignatius J.]

The stuff we buy here as "base" tends to have a very strong taste of what i've come to describe as "dead ants drowned in flyspray"... tends to burn like buggery as well, can end up with blister/ulcer type things on the back of yer throat from the PND.

Usually what you buy as speed is just this shitty base cut down with glucose or something to make it powder form...though i very rarely encounter powder out there now...seems nobody bothers.

Crystal tends to have a very slight hint of the dead/flyspray combo when you're smoking it...you get it just on the back of your throat just as your exhaling a well vaped bowl..yumm. Crush up your crystal and snort it and the taste is more noticeable.

Oh just for repetition of the main point of this thread - Unless you are robbing a school kid of his dexies or are lucky enough to know a niche market "chemist" specialising in amp sulfate then EVERYTHING YOU BUY OUT THERE - SPEED, BASE or CRYSTAL - IS METHAMPHETAMINE.

 

[hyroller]

Oh just for repetition of the main point of this thread - Unless you are robbing a school kid of his dexies or are lucky enough to know a niche market "chemist" specialising in amp sulfate then EVERYTHING YOU BUY OUT THERE - SPEED, BASE or CRYSTAL - IS METHAMPHETAMINE.

lol
this should be in big, bold, red italics on the forum homepage

 

[Hugs & Drugs]

haha yeeh i guess you could say it gives off that "dead ant" smell
it isn't that base shit however, what people round my way call 'base' is that still-moist yellow shit that is far from potent
never touched that shit myself, only been around it

these days i never buy speed/meth whatever it really is haha
but when i did, it was almost always rock
and as for the colour, it is only very slightly off-white, not given a proper look you'd think it was white
just inputting that to cover all corners of the description

so i suppose i should assume i've been getting meth haha
peace.

 

[Ignatius J.]

these days i never buy speed/meth whatever it really is haha
but when i did, it was almost always rock
and as for the colour, it is only very slightly off-white, not given a proper look you'd think it was white
just inputting that to cover all corners of the description

so i suppose i should assume i've been getting meth haha
peace.

Yep. you're getting meth, or rather, what passes for crystal meth these days. Usually smallish slivers of stuff that looks white in the bag. There used to be a time back in the day (before all those anti-"ice" ads were posted up in your local pub pisser -- I blame Ben Cousins..the c*nt) that you could get big clear shards of the stuff. Back then most of the stuff was made overseas and imported...high quality shit.

When you say "rock" do you mean like one big lump...or lil shards? I know you can get "rock whizz" but personally i've never encountered it. I think there is a thread on here that says the big rock stuff is "ketone" synth meth, giving racemic d,l-meth & it comes as a big hard rock because the synth is more complex and thus more prone to having impurities.

 

[thestudent14]

Unless you are robbing a school kid of his dexies or are lucky enough to know a niche market "chemist" specialising in amp sulfate then EVERYTHING YOU BUY OUT THERE - SPEED, BASE or CRYSTAL - IS METHAMPHETAMINE.

If that was directed at me, I *sigh* with how much you missed my question.

 

[PsiloSubNaut]

When you say "rock" do you mean like one big lump...or lil shards? I know you can get "rock whizz" but personally i've never encountered it. I think there is a thread on here that says the big rock stuff is "ketone" synth meth, giving racemic d,l-meth & it comes as a big hard rock because the synth is more complex and thus more prone to having impurities.

I have seen plenty of very solid rocky wizz around this year. It has been at every event and house party I have recently attended and i'm sick of noobs thinking it's even close to pure because its 'rock'.

This is a bad synth or it's heavily cut with something that forms such solid rocks

That said, my meth tolerance never dropped from my heavy use in the mid 00's so maybe it is ok...

Give me imported shards any day over that crap

 

[Ignatius J.]

If that was directed at me, I *sigh* with how much you missed my question.

No it wasnt directed at you at all, it was just a general summary of the preceeding 20 odd pages. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I did go back and read your question. You said that if you were sold pure "speed" what would it be - methamphetamine or amphetamine?

In reality, this is a question of semantics. To be absurd for a second, i can call anything i like "speed" - i could call my couch "speed" and try sell it to you if I want.

Okay silly example but what im trying to say is that "speed" even "pure speed" can have different meanings.

In Australia - NOW --> Speed = Methamphetamine --> why? because it is the only thing clandestine chemists can make on a large scale here. why? because of the availability of starting materials. Because of its availability, pseudoephedrine was until recently the most common route to methamphetamine. All you had to do was cleave off hydroxy group and you have methamphetamine.

BUT psuedoephedrine wasnt always used as the starting material. Until it was banned from sale in Aus in the mid 1980s - Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) was used. NOW PPA is to amphetamine as psudoephedrine is to methylamphetamine..

i.e. -- Phenylpropanolamine = amphetamine with a hydroxy group in the beta position

Psudoephedrine = methamphetamine with a hydroxy group in the beta position.

So you perform the same reduction on PPA --> results in amphetamine. --> this is what was being churned out by your local outlaw motorcycle gangs until PPA was removed from sale.

So until sometime in the 1990s -- if you bought speed in australia, you were actually getting amphetamine.

But now because of the near impossibility of obtaining large amounts starting material for amphetamine such as PPA or P2P, ALL of what is being made clandestinely is METHamphetmine. -- so therefore SPEED now = methamphetamine.....in Australia


why do I say in Australia? because if you fly over to Europe (when this volcano cloud clears) and buy "Speed" you will almost certainly be given Amphetamine Sulphate....apparently methamphetamine is rare as hens teeth over there...why? ease of availability, dodgy eastern european industrial chemical plants are more than happy to churn out amphetamine sulphate by the tonne. there is no need for clandestine labs.

So basically - speed is a label that can be applied to anything.

Wow..you would think that i had been indulging in a bit of the sponsors product in writing so much.....but really i havent...though i would prbly be willing to kill some one for some when i have to get up for work in 2 hours

 

[MrIbis]

I think i posted it in another thread... but we were talking about p2p and pseudo based cooks, the results and the starter costs..

I'll note that, in not mentioning prices, a kilo of p2p is worth roughly a six figure amount. Now thats enough to cook a significant amount of meth. However, it's probably much simpler to consider that most meth cooks are fairly inexperienced, and a p2p cook is a hell of a lot more difficult than your standard pseudoephedrine reduction. Also that they require a shitload more equipment to pull off, that your average jibhead backyard cook just wouldn't have access to.

In saying all this, it's quite likely that most meth in this country is just cut up pseudo reduced shit. Given that p2p is explicitly illegal with no industrialized uses - finding a way to divert it would be a fucking long shot toward the goal. And finding a decent chemist skilled enough to pull off such a method without creating a shite product would also be a fairly long shot - unless you yourself are such a savvy person.

 

[asphyx]

Ketone vs pseudoephedrine meth?

All my friends talk about speed being either 'ketone' or 'pseudo' like there are differences between them (such as ketone lasting longer when you smoke it, tasting different, being better, etc).

I personally don't know wtf they're talking about because afaik if you make meth from either ketone or pseudoephedrine it doesn't matter because they both turn out as methamphetamine, the finished product is the same... then again I don't know too much about the synthesis of drugs.

Anyone care to explain?

 

[phase_dancer]

There is one major difference. It's got to with enantiomers. On each of your hands point the 3rd finger inwards. Now imagine the meth molecule as one of your hands, say your left hand. We'll call that the levorotatory (l)enantiomer (isomer). Now look at your right hand and think of this as the dextrorotatory (d) enantiomer of meth. These are non-superimposible,, in the same way as d-meth and l-meth are.

As can be imagined, because of the positional differences, it's unlikely both molecules will bind to the same things in the same way. Think of the receptor as 7 strands of amino acids next to each other, with certain places on a few strands that bind with the drug. One enantiomer might "fit" well, but it's complementary will have essential features which are orientated differently.

In regards to methamphetamine, the d- enantiomer is the most psychoactive. It has several times the potency of the l-enantiomer.


Now to answer your question. Put simply, (+) Pseudoephedrine is the correct isomer (diastereomer) for producing only the d-enantiomer of meth. However, when meth is made via the ketone (which can be considered a flat molecule for this explanation) the amino group can attach from both sides, with the product being a 50:50 mixture of the d and l enantiomers. This is known as a racemic mixture.

As for physical appearance and pharmacology, there is a perceivable difference, but it's not as might be expected (i.e. 1/2 the potency of pure d-meth). Reports say the ketone based product produces a different high, and perhaps crystallises better, but I can't speak from experience here.


[Edit: threads merged; p_d]

 

[Oldrolla]

^^^ Nice. Ten outta ten for explaining it in a way us non chemists can grasp.
Elephant stamp for you p_d

 

[phase_dancer]

Thanks Oldrolla, it's sometimes tricky when attempting to use everyday examples and simplifying too much, as it's easy to give an incorrect picture. However, it's not hard stuff, first year chem really. If you want more, check out wiki on

Chirality

Enantiomer

Diastereomer

Optical rotation

 

[hyroller]

If ketone kept people awake, then they'd put that in cold & flu medicine.

I rest my case.

I could launch into a long-winded discussion about the various differences there are but the short of it is: ketone may make you feel awake, but it certainly doesn't give you any buzz

also, ketone tastes like shit compared with bomb ass pseudo... and smells like cats piss. icky, yicky, and not my cup of tea. it's basically all there is nowadays in victoria, however

 

[Mr Blonde]

Levo-methylamphetamine is used in some OTC medicines in America, namely as a nasal decongestant.

 

[thestudent14]

@ignatius J
all good bro, just looked directed at me, when I already knew all of what you just said lol.

But thx for clearing that up.

 

[Sustanon]

The freebase form of meth is an oil (liquid); the HCl salt, a crystalline solid. Without getting into detail here, reduction of pseudo can be done in either base or acid conditions (although some methods wouldn't work for both). If basic conditions were used, the pseudo would normally first be converted (maybe insitu) to the freebase - a liquid.

I didn't see Sustanon's post, but to refer to pure meth as an oil, although true, in a sense is misleading, as Meth is normally produced, sold and used as the HCl salt, and pure Meth-HCl is a solid.

I never referred to meth freebase oil to be pure. U need to turn it into Hydrochloride and purify it. Hence the so called "base" is going around because people do not know how to do it properly or too lazy to clean it up.

 

[static_mind]

Hyroller I can't see how that is possiably accurate and sounds more like word of mouth then anything. Without having known samples from each its impossiable to tell without making assumptions. Id say your assumptions are based around a variance of product which is typical of the black market.

Also as phasedancer pointed out psudo produces primaryly d-meth, the more active isomer and would assume be more potent at keeping people awake. Ketone produces both d and L meth (racemic).

Chem isn't my strongest so someone correct me if im wrong.