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MK Ultra and BZ the "Superhallucinogen"

It's the animal stuff that I read that really got to me. My wife used to work at a vet. practice, and at one point we had 6 cats, 4 of whom were rescue cases from abuse, abandonment etc. That, and after hearing some of the stories my wife got to know about, I have no time for people who torture/abuse animals (the only thing stopping them from doing it to people is the likelyhood of being found out and severe legal sanctions). Once I'd seen one of those 'stories', the red mist just came down (I once threw a half brick at someone who thought it funny to set his dog on one of my cats - I'm not proud of it - it hit him just above the waist, and by that time I had a piece of 2 by 2, and if he hadn't legged it, it'd most probably have ended up with me in prison).

I know that not everyone there is dodgy, as I'm quite interested in military history, 'unconventional weapons' and explosives (even after being caught in an IRA explosion), and even tested things like lachrymators (tear gas), pepper spray and even a home made tazer on myself. It's just the animal abuse that wound me up so much.
 
I don't think throwing a brick at the bastard was too harsh to be honest, I know that if *I* caught someone trying to hurt my cat I would be very quick in reaching for my pistol:X

I had the same sort of situation once as a kid, only young, around 11 or so, I used to have a pet slow-worm, a kind of legless lizard, childish as it was, I loved him or her, one time, some chav tried to take my then beloved pet off of me, to use as bait, for fishing with, and I didn't care about the consequences, I would have stabbed the guy then and there if he hadn't seen me take out my knife and decided to scarper, without Isis.

I think there should be tougher penalties for people who hurt animals, I do the same, and rescue injured animals, mostly wild ones, used to have a baby hedgehog that slept in the house, and a stray dog as a kid.

Since this thread is on BZ, I actually think that would make a very good punishment for animal abusers, not ethical, but I think in an ideal world, they would be dosed with BZ, and have the animals owner be allowed to beat the bejeebus out of the abuser, then release them after the BZ wore off.

Neither ethical or nice, but I would love to see it done, I think the amount of people who tortured animals would go down SHARPLY after said punishment;)

It wasn't actually ON roguesci, but I think it came from there, I stupidly opened a file posted online, and was absolutely sickened to the stomach by what I saw, some filth, for there is no other word to describe such "people", had a tiny kitten, and had put the poor creature in a cage, and set it on fire, laughing at the kittens screams of agony :X

I almost broke down in tears when I saw that, its the fact that the so-called most advanced life on this planet can be capable of such cruelty to a tiny defenseless animal, we as humans should be using our technology and intellect to protect and care for animals, we evolved our intelligence, so we should be putting it to use as guardians of the earth, not its destroyers and torturers.
 
Limpet Chicken said:
It wasn't actually ON roguesci, but I think it came from there, I stupidly opened a file posted online, and was absolutely sickened to the stomach by what I saw, some filth, for there is no other word to describe such "people", had a tiny kitten, and had put the poor creature in a cage, and set it on fire, laughing at the kittens screams of agony :X

I almost broke down in tears when I saw that, its the fact that the so-called most advanced life on this planet can be capable of such cruelty to a tiny defenseless animal, we as humans should be using our technology and intellect to protect and care for animals, we evolved our intelligence, so we should be putting it to use as guardians of the earth, not its destroyers and torturers.
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^^ That is disgusting. I have no problem in giving that BZ penalty to someone who would do that.
 
I once experimented with Atropa Belladonna with two close friends, and needless to say it was a scary experience. I happened to take quite a bit more than both of my friends, who ended up feeling the effects for close to three days (well "feeling the effects" is a bit misleading, maybe "not noticing the fact that they were experiencing the effects" might be more accurate.) Yet; instead of hallucinating, I just spent the next couple of days convulsing uncontrollably.

I don't regret the experience, but it is not one that I would recommend to anyone. I consider my friends and I very lucky that we did not wind up in jail, a mental hospital or something worse. Everyone else I know whose experimented with natural anticholinergics has wound up in the hospital, one of them had some pretty massive bills, because he ended up hospitalizing a couple of cops on his way there, but luckily did not end up in any legal trouble despite that fact.

I used to play around alot, however with motion sickness pills, and have one particular friend who considers them a personal favorite.

I'd maybe try it again if I was in Death Valley hanging out with uncle Charlie, but very unlikely under any other circumstances.
 
if someone did that to my cats i would probably tie them to a chair and force them to drink hydrofluoric acid (the third strongest acid in the world, sulphuric is seventh i believe) then i would probably do some other, less pleasant, things to them. also i personally think that anticholinergics are EVIL (i now take cholinergics, the exact opposite of datura).
 
Just because I am bored, and have sod all else to do right now, kaoskid, I think I should point out, that hydrofluoric acid is not even a strong acid, the PKa is actually quite low for HF, in aqueous solution, hydrogen fluoride is not very strongly ionised at all, making it weakly acidic, the reason hydrofluoric is dangerous, is that leeches calcium from the bones, flooding the body with excess calcium, that, and the inherent toxicity of the F- ion, causes death from sudden heart attack.

The strongest "common" acid, is perchloric acid I believe, and there is a superacid known as magic acid or pentafluoroantimonic acid, HF(SbF5) that is a good several thousand times stronger than sulfuric acid.

And also, the recently discovered carborane acids, which are incredibly acidic, yet chemically almost inert.

Bored, so I just thought I would correct you there=D
 
the carborane acids seem very interesting, one article says that they may be used in vitamins soon
 
Limpet Chicken said:
Just because I am bored, and have sod all else to do right now, kaoskid, I think I should point out, that hydrofluoric acid is not even a strong acid, the PKa is actually quite low for HF, in aqueous solution, hydrogen fluoride is not very strongly ionised at all, making it weakly acidic, the reason hydrofluoric is dangerous, is that leeches calcium from the bones, flooding the body with excess calcium, that, and the inherent toxicity of the F- ion, causes death from sudden heart attack.

The strongest "common" acid, is perchloric acid I believe, and there is a superacid known as magic acid or pentafluoroantimonic acid, HF(SbF5) that is a good several thousand times stronger than sulfuric acid.

And also, the recently discovered carborane acids, which are incredibly acidic, yet chemically almost inert.

Bored, so I just thought I would correct you there=D
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several thousand times is a bit of an overstatement, there is no accurate way to measure the dissasociation constant of the HF/SbF5 mixture since you cant exactly put it in water :p

however, i have heard somewhere that if you call the pKa of sulfuric acid -11.9, then the pKa of HF/SbF5 is -21.
 
> Listen up, there is no fun dose of this drug

That is incorrect.

(I know you were referring to BZ, but within context, the comments you were replying to referred to Datura, which does have a "fun" dose, although it also has serious toxicity issues; harm reduction should not include DARE-like hysteria)
 
> Pretty much what Blowmonkey was hinting at; after all, if you think
> about ayahuasca, it's not exactly 'fun' unless you like vomiting and
> possibly being scared shitless, but it is a valuable experience
> that you can learn from.

Some people take ayahuasca at raves. {shrug}

The Bwiti use ibogaine in dangerous initiatory doses, and thereafter use it for dancing/worship in lower doses. {shrug}

> Anticholinergics do have their uses

Yes - as testified to by their use in shamanism, European witchcraft, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

> (I've got a cat that gets very small doses because he has a
> shorter than average intestine, so has constant squirts without
> them)

This would imply that the only utlility of these substances is from a medical viewpoint, and there I could not disagree more strongly.

I feel that anticholinergics are underrated drugs. Dangerous, yes; fascinating, yes.

> but large deleriant doses aren't useful

I disagree. I learned a lot from my anticholinergic experiences.

> as you don't really get the same sort of thought development
> that you do with psychedelics

What about shamanism and sorcery? STOPPING the internal dialogue helps out there.

> and even if you did, the amnesia is generally so bad that all
> you remember is the really scary stuff

Yes, they do require intense intent - and a bottle of DMAE for the recovery period is also probably a good idea.

> Instead of fun, substitute nothing valuable to offer

Again, I disagree.
 
> Although, out of the anticholinergics, ditran was supposed to be
> one of the few euphoria producing ones

Aside from scopolamine? ;)
 
I've done Jimson Weed, and at low doses Its pretty enjoyable. I have a lot of anxiety, and after low doses of smoked Jimson weed leaf I have practically none. Some of its effects are very similar to cannabis in low doses, However in high doses It becomes very dangerous. I've had my legs completely give out on me after a somewhat high dose of Jimson Weed seeds. Personally I didn't have any interesting hallucinations. (Dreamlike, or otherwise.) Jimson weeds active ingredients can also cause liver damage if used extensively ( I don't remember my source, so find it yourself. =P) and besides that, its active ingredients have been used as poisons throughout the ages. I've found that the best use for Jimson Weed is to help potentiate the cannabis high.

Oh and sorry if this isn't at all on topic, but i was reading what some of you posted about animal abuse and how totally f*cking sick it is, and i couldn't agree more. I also agree that If those people (animal abusers) could get away with it, they would do it to humans aswell. Well, anyway, what i wanted to ask was; did any of you hear about the tiger that was shot and killed about three weeks ago in the USA? Apparently it had escaped from some private owner, and the Police or some law enforcment agency (they didn't give details on the shooter.) just shot it, apparently without trying to tranquilize, net, or otherwise safely incapacitate it. They then hauled it away in a net hanging from a helicopter (like they couldn't have thrown it in the back of a pickup truck just as easily.) as if to say; "look, we have the technology to safely capture this magnificent creature, but instead we decided to kill it." The news report, after devoting a whole 16 secs (or less) to this story then went on to say that whoever was was reponsible (remember, no details.) would have liked to capture the animal alive, while at the same time providing no other details as to whether or not they even tried to capture it alive! Well i dont know about you but that really pissed me off. Sorry if any of the details seem cloudy; you have NBC to thank for that.
-Edgar
 
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^ Yes, I stand corrected. I should have been more specific, and said that deleriant doses of anticholinergic hallucinogens aren't much cop.

> as you don't really get the same sort of thought development
> that you do with psychedelics

What about shamanism and sorcery? STOPPING the internal dialogue helps out there.
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I agree that stopping the internal dialoge helps with things like anxiety, when used in low doses (as mentioned in Edgar Edwin's post), but with high doses you don't get the same sort of development of thought processes as with 5HT psychedelics, due to the fact that your short term memory is shot to shit; even long term memory can fall to pieces with large doses. As far as I'm aware, anticholinergics have never been the main part of shamanism, but a minor component that's added to the main drug for whatever reason (such as small amounts of Solanacae added to ayahuasca, cannabis & assorted other main hallucinogens). Only sorcery has relied on it as a main drug, and that's only as a tool to manipulate the mindstates of others (like creating zombies, through keeping them drugged and confused) - hardly an insight into the workings of the universe.

Off topic I know but...

If the tiger wasn't an immediate threat to public safety, the only reason I can think of for killing it (I mean, it's also a fucking endangered species), is some law enforcement type official trying to compensate for some inadequacy by being able to say he shot a tiger.

In game reserves in some African countries, if you're caught killing an elephant, the park rangers are legally entitled to shoot you on sight - no fuckin' messing about. If protecting endangered species is taken that seriously in some countries, what sort of fuckwit wants to kill a tiger if it wasn't an immediate danger to the public? If they could have shot it with a bullet, they could have used a tranquillizer instead
 
So i have been wondering for years. What is it really like to be on BZ. I would never ever ever ever wanna try it but if anyone has been brave enough, how would you describe it personally. I imagine bromo dragonfly being crazy just by lasting 3 days so I cant imagine a more intense 3 day datura trip!
 
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