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MK Ultra and BZ the "Superhallucinogen"

QLineHookups

QLineHookups

Bluelighter
Joined
May 17, 2004
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I was researching the history of LSD and the CIA and came across project MK Ultra, where the goal was possible mind control weapons for the army to use.

Upon researching this however, I came across the "superhallucinogen" known as BZ or quinuclidinyl benzilate. This apparently lasted for 3 days with side effects lasting up until 6 weeks.

Here's a site with more detail:

http://www.levity.com/aciddreams/samples/bz.html


Does anyone have any knowledge on what eventually happened to this chemical? Has anyone ever ingested it? Apparently it was tested on about 2600 soldiers with varying results. Some of the soldiers were permanently changed after their experience.

Any thoughts?
 
MK!!!

Specificus Moohahahahahahaha!


It seems as though an eastern European boy was giving out BZ at school. I've tried to find the like but it has escaped me.
 
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Lets go to D.C. and start an uprising and see if they'll give us some BZ (BiG ZeuS?).
Bad Zeus?
Blue Zoo
Lets give it a street name so it'll get popular with the kiddys.
 
Ever seen jacob's ladder? Thats supposed to be inspired by a BZ trip. But seriously www.erowid.org is a fine place to start to learn about BZ.
 
It's just a nasty, very long lived anticholinergic hallucinogen - you'd get the same sort of effects if the only water you had to drink for 2 days was dosed with atropine.

The ones who were perm. effected are most probably still wondering if everything is real, or if they're still under the influence of the drug. Anticholinergics are not fun and not worth fucking your head up for
 
Yeah, I would never even think about taking it. That's just a little too intense for me. I was just wondering if anyone knows someone or has experienced this themselves.
 
I heard of BZ in the 70's I remeber it being called BZ12 though.
We thought; wow this would be fun!

Now that i have read about it No F'n way, scary stuff indeed. And it is available on the internet; DID i read that right!

And I thought Datora was bad! That also last quite a lone while.
cheers
 
Actually, if you look in any of the catalogues sent out by big research (as in universities, not semi-legal dealers) chemical firms, you'll find that 3-quinuclidinol (BZ is 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate) is a monitored compound - not as a drug precursor, but as a compound used in the manufacture of chemical weapons. a la what something like a terrorist group might try and do - it's that nasty!
 
Yeah this substance seems more like a chemical weapon without any sort of recreational use. I'm interested in reading a trip report though.
 
i know somebody that got ahold of some during the 60s (he had really amazing hookups, i.e Owsley) he said that a woman who took it with him had a four hour conversation with her purse, he also said that it was extremely unpleasant and said he would never ever take it again.
 
Yeah, its bascailly like most other anticholinergic hallucinogens, like datura, draminine, etc. If your idea of a wonderful time is 3 days of realistic hallucinations that you would swear were real, and the utter chaos that comes with such hallucinations, be my guest. I however, will stick to more uplifting "fun" psychadelics!
 
I've got a friend who ate a large piece of datura root in Crete over 10 years ago, but he still has moments where he'll srart questioning whether he's just imagined the last 12 years, and he's still in Crete, and still lost in an anticholinergic nightmare

I can see how the effects of BZ served as the main story basis for the film 'Jacob's Ladder', as that's what anticholinergics are like (not the violence etc hinted at in the film, more that you don't know what is imagination and what is reality - it can be your own personal horror film; as my friend has described it)
 
^ You know that f&b meant this in a different way, if not, you should now.

They have their purposes, but it's not the thing people would want to seek out to use recreationally.
 
> You know that f&b meant this in a different way

Did I know that?

How do you know what I know/knew?

> if not, you should now.

Well, I now know your interpretation of what his comments meant, thank you.

> They have their purposes

Agreed.

> but it's not the thing people would want to seek out
> to use recreationally

At deliriant doses, perhaps. However, anticholinergics have been used recreationally for quite some time - as one instance, consider the ancient Greek practice of using anticholinergics as admixture agents in wine.
 
Walkaway said:
> You know that f&b meant this in a different way

Did I know that?

How do you know what I know/knew?

> if not, you should now.

Well, I now know your interpretation of what his comments meant, thank you.
Click to expand...

Common sense would suggest it. Anyways, MY common sense as you so eloquently put, let's see what f&b's common sense likes to think about it.

The latter part of your second response even addressed it:
At deliriant doses, perhaps..
Click to expand...

I think that what f&b meant WERE deleriant dosages, these can in no way be described as recreationally or fun.
 
> let's see what f&b's common sense likes to think about it.

That would be the empirical approach. :)

> The latter part of your second response even addressed it:

Perhaps. ;)

>> At deliriant doses, perhaps..

Note the word "perhaps" there on the end...

> I think that what f&b meant WERE deleriant dosages, these can
> in no way be described as recreationally or fun.

"Tim Leary has been quoted as saying he never heard of a good belladonna trip; my own experience has been an exception."

(Stafford, PSYCHEDELICS ENCYCLOPEDIA, 3rd ed.)

In conversation with me, Mr. Stafford confirmed that he had experienced quite euphoric and enjoyable effects from Belladonna ingestion.

My own experience has also been an exception, though I do agree that these substances are of low utility from a 'recreational' standpoint - I simply disagree that the effects "can in NO WAY be described as recreational or fun." (emphasis mine)
 
Pretty much what Blowmonkey was hinting at; after all, if you think about ayahuasca, it's not exactly 'fun' unless you like vomiting and possibly being scared shitless, but it is a valuable experience that you can learn from.

Anticholinergics do have their uses (I've got a cat that gets very small doses because he has a shorter than average intestine, so has constant squirts without them), but large deleriant doses aren't useful as you don't really get the same sort of thought development that you do with psychedelics, and even if you did, the amnesia is generally so bad that all you remember is the really scary stuff.

Instead of fun, substitute nothing valuable to offer
 
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