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Dissociatives Metaprogramming with Ketamine

Ketamine seems to imbue a 'multi-dimensional' perspective (if that makes any sense at all), from which one can actually 'reposition' core beliefs and foundational assumptions through their conscious intent. It's as if there's a clean 'hierarchy' of observable fundamentals that can be worked with DIRECTLY, from a somewhat objective space. This sounds odd, Im sure, but if you've been there, you'll know exactly what I mean...
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Very very true! PErfectly put! No sense trying to force non believers/or inexperienced k users to accept or understand such a complex yet beautiful altered state. =D
 
This can also be done with DXM and PCP. As a matter of fact, I think it may be easier to control with PCP than ketamine. That is, if you're truly getting PCP (not TCP), and ketamine (not tiletamine or anything else like that). TCP and tiletamine seem like watered down versions of PCP and ketamine. Peace.
 
AdInfinitum said:
^^

Ignorance.
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no, that is criticism, his statement is actually quite valid, it simply depends on how one identifies reality, besides how do we know that what we identify as real when we are sober holds any more truth or falsity than what we identify as real on k?
In my opinion, i think experiencing such an adventure is possible for i have had some adventures, perhaps not as exciting as the one on this thread, but have felt the need to reeavalute the meaning of my existance, as a result of this nice,chemically induced cognitive dissonance that i exerienced from dxm
 
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BilZ0r said:
...um, yeah, I think that's called hallucinating.
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No, metaprogramming has absolutely nothing to do with hallucinating. You clearly don't really have the slightest idea of what metaprogramming is.

Hallucinating involves alteration in senses, so that the external environment appears different than what is generally considered to be "reality". So if you look around the room you are in and see the walls breathing and faces in the grains of the wood on the floor, thats hallucinating.

Metaprogramming has nothing to with one's environment, and everything to do with a voyage into one's own mind. The fundamental concept of metaprogramming involves becoming conscious of, and then being able to re-write one's own mental "scripts" that dictate how one will respond to any given situation. I remember reading a description of K as a sort of virtual reality machine, and that's a pretty apt description. What dissociatives allow you to do is place yourself in some imagined future scenario, and then watch how things play out based on your original mental scripts that dictate your behaviour. You can then decide to change things...make slight alterations in your mental programming...and then watch what happens. Theoretically, you can then emerge from the experience with a new mental outlook which can then have a profound effect in the future.

Now, whether you buy this or not...it really has nothing to do with hallucinating. You don't "see" imagined scenarios play out, rather you simply "experience" them as you would a lucid dream. K increases the powers of the imagination to the point where sensory input is unnecessary to imagine a given scenario with an extraordinary amount of detail and sense of actually being there.
 
What you described in your 2nd paragraph is visual hallucinations. What you then describe, are cognitive hallucinations.

While metaprogamming is obviously possibley, I suspect the perceived increased ability while using NMDA antagonists is an hallucination.
 
Well this is something I probably wouldn't believe if I hadn't experienced it myself. It is very weird, and it can be done with any aspect of your mind or body.

Want to point out the couple of times I have done it most succesfully I have been stoned, rather than anything else. It started with a sort of probing or exploring the subconscienceness, and sort of finding something of myself. Following this there is a sort of bright flash inside the head and I could tell the diffrerence afterwards, so I know things actually changed. And I don't only mean for the next few mins.


But there was a time I had some really strong K, had also had some 2CB mixed in with a line earlier and I don't know if this affected it, but after one line I had it so that I had control of everything and could see every function of my body. The problem was that it was overwelming and I had to try and contrl EVERYTHING which was impossible. I could do one or tow, but everything else went out of control, hot/cold, sweating, crazy stuff. I had to turn myself OFF, which in itself was a very weird experience.,


That has to be the oddest experiece of my life, and you might just put it down to hallucination, or k-holeing, but.... I don't know ;)
 
bumpity bump... somehow old topics attract me more than many new ones on BL
 
The biggest problem I see with using ketamine for metaprogramming is that NMDA is central to synaptic plasticity and ketamine is an NMDA antagonist. You may be in the perfect state for metaprogramming, but your efforts will (seemingly) be futile. If anyone is serious about using dissociative states for metaprogramming a sensory deprivation chamber or other technological means are probably the way to go.
 
Merely spectualting here, but wouldn't such acute antagonism of NMDA receptors result in receptor upregulation (and thus incresed neuronal plasticity)?


On a similar note, what exactly brings about the dopamine (& maybe even other NTs) rebound?



Also, can anyone give substance to reports of people learning a full language in the week after an acid trip? Different chemical yes, but a very similar phenomenon.
 
I'm not sure how much credit can be given to that statement... I am a big K afficionado, but saying shit like that about anything is pure speculation; even if the statement had pages of scientific support from studies, I would still be weary of it (altough much less than at present, granted).
 
I've been experimenting with "ketaprogramming" for a little while now. I've found that in combination with guided trance induction it can be extremely powerful, although chosing a suitable script is crucial.

I've also done a few EEG measurements of my frontal lobes (for entertainment purposes only) and for me at least, ketamine seems to facilitate a state similar to very deep meditation. The coherence increases quite a bit, my theta waves became stronger than my alpha waves and theres a fairly strong slow pulse to the readings. What I find most interesting is that if I meditate on K my gamma wave amplitude goes through the roof as well as the ratio of gamma waves to other frequencies.

This seems to correlate pretty well with 'real' research done on transcendent states:

Washington Post said:
Brain research is beginning to produce concrete evidence for something that Buddhist practitioners of meditation have maintained for centuries: Mental discipline and meditative practice can change the workings of the brain and allow people to achieve different levels of awareness.

Those transformed states have traditionally been understood in transcendent terms, as something outside the world of physical measurement and objective evaluation. But over the past few years, researchers at the University of Wisconsin working with Tibetan monks have been able to translate those mental experiences into the scientific language of high-frequency gamma waves and brain synchrony, or coordination. And they have pinpointed the left prefrontal cortex, an area just behind the left forehead, as the place where brain activity associated with meditation is especially intense.

"What we found is that the longtime practitioners showed brain activation on a scale we have never seen before," said Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at the university's new $10 million W.M. Keck Laboratory for Functional Brain Imaging and Behavior. "Their mental practice is having an effect on the brain in the same way golf or tennis practice will enhance performance." It demonstrates, he said, that the brain is capable of being trained and physically modified in ways few people can imagine.

Scientists used to believe the opposite -- that connections among brain nerve cells were fixed early in life and did not change in adulthood. But that assumption was disproved over the past decade with the help of advances in brain imaging and other techniques, and in its place, scientists have embraced the concept of ongoing brain development and "neuroplasticity."

Davidson says his newest results from the meditation study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in November, take the concept of neuroplasticity a step further by showing that mental training through meditation (and presumably other disciplines) can itself change the inner workings and circuitry of the brain...

The Dalai Lama ultimately dispatched eight of his most accomplished practitioners to Davidson's lab to have them hooked up for electroencephalograph (EEG) testing and brain scanning. The Buddhist practitioners in the experiment had undergone training in the Tibetan Nyingmapa and Kagyupa traditions of meditation for an estimated 10,000 to 50,000 hours, over time periods of 15 to 40 years. As a control, 10 student volunteers with no previous meditation experience were also tested after one week of training...

Most important, the electrodes picked up much greater activation of fast-moving and unusually powerful gamma waves in the monks, and found that the movement of the waves through the brain was far better organized and coordinated than in the students. The meditation novices showed only a slight increase in gamma wave activity while meditating, but some of the monks produced gamma wave activity more powerful than any previously reported in a healthy person, Davidson said.

The monks who had spent the most years meditating had the highest levels of gamma waves, he added. This "dose response" -- where higher levels of a drug or activity have greater effect than lower levels -- is what researchers loo for to assess cause and effect.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html
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I find it quite fitting that higher frequencies would be associated with 'higher' states of consciousness. Increased brain synchrony (neurons in separate regions firing synchronously, "coherence" etc ) also fits nicely with a sense of "oneness" and the perception of synchronicities and "far out thoughts" often reported by ketamine users.

I think we all agree ketamine can produce some pretty wild experiences and I view "ketaprogramming" as simply trying to excerise a greater degree of control, potentially making the experience more beneficial. :)
 
shamus said:
..................Also, can anyone give substance to reports of people learning a full language in the week after an acid trip? .......
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Do you have a source for this report? I'd be really interested in seeing it.

E
 
Ive been a heavy daily ketamine user for over a year. I've experienced this metaprogamming your talking about but the problem i see with ketamine lies in the memory aspect of it. It might me because i use it so much not just in k-hole situations but ive done this "metaprogramming" several times but after will forget exactly what i was thinking or how i was feeling which only confuses me further making me sketchy about my state of mind
 
it's really messed me up, and im trying to cold turkey now to get my mind straight again... does anyone know if permanent damage can happen from this?

I've k-holed so many times, but the last few months i guess my state of mind is weakened or im in a bad place so i cant control it and my k-holes turn extremely negative and self destructive, almost traumatizing sometimes.

So my question is, is it possible over these experiences ive metaprogrammed myself into a bunk, will it go away if i stop using, or do i have to use some other sort of MP or meditation to "fix" myself?

Also on erowid it explains how heavy K use may make you egocentric or paranoid.... for me often times ive noticed it has done both to me.. its a terrible mix :(
 
From the descriptions, metaprogramming sounds a bit like a user-controlled hallucination state (both cognitive and phenomenological hallucinations)--similar to "lucid dreaming." In terms of being able to alter one's own negative pessimistic affirmations and/or achieve any sort of lasting personality 'reconstruction,' this is something that is absolutely impossible for me unless I am in a psychedelic mindstate. I can tell myself something endlessly, but I will never actually believe it or integrate it (or effect any change whatsoever) without the psychedelic catalyst. Interestingly, the chemical that I have most effective for this purpose is dextromethorphan, followed closely by LSD. And I guess the great thing about LSD is that it is not an NMDA receptor antagonist, so one's memory of the trip is pretty much intact afterwards.
 
Somehow the DXM head-space feels very much like the LSD one.

Of course the way they alter perception is quite different, but there's that odd feeling of "being home" that always makes me wonder.

And I have never done K but I am pretty sure you can achieve similar "metapgramming" phenomenon on a good dose of DXM....it's insane. I agree that there's some intuitve things involved that are beyond explanation and are very shamanic, but it's beyond a hallucination.

I mean shit our life is a big hallucination, what really is real? What's real is what we experience....at that moment.
 
Someone defined hallucinations as breathing walls, etc on the first page. I think that is more of a pseudohallunication. I'd define a true hallucination as you are completely unaware whatever you are seeing is not actually there. During my true hallucinations I have no idea I took a substance.
 
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