MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

[socrilus]

I personally think getting persistent HPPD symptoms from non-ecstasy type drugs is extremely rare. Actual HPPD from mushrooms for example is extremely, extremely rare.

I personally did a fair amount of other drugs (ketamine-like drugs included) without a worsening of visual symptoms.

The biggest thing that can worsen VS/tinnitus in my experience is sleep deprivation, but that seemed to be a temporary thing for me.

I thought Ecstasy/MDMA was still less likely than stuff like LSD to cause it.

But as far as the Ketamine it seem like I'm going to have to take a leap of faith really. I just hope a "fear of HPPD" doesn't become a self fulfilling prophecy and cause HPPD by itself.

This LTC has been going on far too long and I'm not able to pursue my dreams thanks to the depression. I can do school and all but I just barely get by. Its not fun at all and I have been missing out socially since my social skills went down due to the LTC directly.

Ketamine does cause transient visuals though right? The dose they are giving is 0.5 mg/kg so that works out to roughly 30-35 mg by IV over time.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

The truth is that we don't have good data but visual snow/afterimages et cetera from E and also Benadryl abuse is probably much more common than full blown HPPD from hallucinogens.

Some people have intense geometric pattern-ish HPPD and that seems to really only come from stuff like LSD (which is the most common out of all the hallucinogens to cause it).

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Ketamine - lists oral and nasal doses but not IV - I'm fairly sure that 30mg IV is low and won't be producing universe melting effects for you, especially if it's a slow infusion, but I'm sure that there will be some (probably enjoyable) effects.

NMDA antagonists can certainly cause transient visuals and auditory effects, but try to relax and enjoy the ride (RE: self fulfilling prophecy)

 

[Regrets9995]

I feel like im stuck in the moment, cant look forward and can't really remember anything, dunno if it's because I'm not paying attention or my brain is just destroyed. Really struggling with each day that goes by in this state.

 

[martainnn]

Thought id chime in since it's been a long while since I posted. Around 7/8 months or something I guess.

If you don't remember me I started this hell in Jan 2016 and I got the old HPPD/DP/DR. Anyway, its been around 16 months now and thought id share some thoughts and advice from what I've learnt in this process.

I had my first proper setback at around 6 months after a drink, from then it took me about 3 months to get properly back on my feet. From around October last year, I was doing quite good. My HPPD/visuals had become a background in my life and my DP/DR had lessened and become controllable. I still had some random anxiety but I would say I was at around 60% for a good while.

Unfortunately, I had a really bad setback at the end of March and my HPPD has come back full force, walls breathing and the lot! I'm not sure what to put this down to but it was either passive cannabis smoke (got bad a few days later) stress from writing my dissertation, a combination of the two or something completely else. So that brings me to my first bit of advice....avoid stress, and if you have HPPD AVOID CANNABIS SMOKE!

Whilst I have some heightened anxiety and somewhat higher DP/DR, I have taken my past experience to know that I will probably make some improvements over the next months, but it will be a slow process and might take me a good 6 months or so to get back to where I was before.

Anyway, what was working for me before was.....
-Weight training 6 days of every 8 (doing a push, pull, legs split)
-No alcohol at all (and ofc no drugs)
-Very occasional low dose valium use as a way to relax or if I have bad anxiety (no more than a few times a month really)
-Was cycling on and off supplementing with Taurine and L-theanine which seemed to be helping with the anxiety for a while. Might be worth some people giving it a go since they both work with GABA
-Having something to focus on...i.e. uni work, music production, playing games, walking etc...
-Eating a plant based diet (very little animal products, 90% vegan)

And most of all, I truly think being medication free has helped my brain start to heal naturally. I know some people on here have done well with SSRIs and whatever but for those with HPPD I think the best bet is to let your brain heal without medication, at least for the first few years.

Anyway hope this is helpful and hope everyone is doing okay

 

[dj-b]

I feel like im stuck in the moment, cant look forward and can't really remember anything, dunno if it's because I'm not paying attention or my brain is just destroyed. Really struggling with each day that goes by in this state.

i felt that after a bad combo took a while to get back but after a few weeks it went away. just hang in there and eat your supplements!

 

[Regrets9995]

Been like this for 5 months now, just don't know what to do.

 

[martainnn]

Been like this for 5 months now, just don't know what to do.

I had a look through your previous posts and I had and still have some similar symptoms to you still 16 months in. However, at 5 months I was still a complete wreck. Its not long at all man and I know it seems like such a long time to wait but unfortuantly HPPD and DP take a long time to recover from. What I can say is that at around 9 months is when things started to get a lot better for me in terms of how I felt even though quite a few of my symptoms didnt improve that much.

Can I ask what sort of things you have been doing throughout your recovery to aid yourself? Any exercise, whats your diet like etc, alcohol use? Etc etc

Feel free to message me bro

 

[Regrets9995]

I had a look through your previous posts and I had and still have some similar symptoms to you still 16 months in. However, at 5 months I was still a complete wreck. Its not long at all man and I know it seems like such a long time to wait but unfortuantly HPPD and DP take a long time to recover from. What I can say is that at around 9 months is when things started to get a lot better for me in terms of how I felt even though quite a few of my symptoms didnt improve that much.

Can I ask what sort of things you have been doing throughout your recovery to aid yourself? Any exercise, whats your diet like etc, alcohol use? Etc etc

Feel free to message me bro

Hello thank you for your reply, I know im being so negative on here but im sure you can understand its horrible to have your world as you knew it completely destroyed! I've been exercising on and off and I know this is the most important thing to do but motivation to get out of bed is lacking at times. I've been working 4 times a week which helps as I have something to keep busy with and its not stressful so I'm lucky in that respect but as soon as i get home I just want to go jump off a bridge or something it's horrible. Eat healthily most of the time, allow my self some crap as it's the only thing I can enjoy these days. Been taking a multivitamin vitamin and fish oil supplements. However I have been taking a low dose ssri to allow me to function as I just couldn't go without anything any more. Seeing a psychologist for CBT and talking therapy and that's about it.

Glad to hear you felt better after a while, for me at this point it just seems like my life is over!!

 

[socrilus]

Anybody else deal with earworms (which would be one of the 'neutral' ish obsessive thoughts)?

I notice when I listen to music its far easier for a song to be stuck in my head these days. Its quite annoying.

When I look up this symptom it just says 'low serotonin' but thats way too simplified. I think everything plays a role.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I had ear worms really bad for a couple years. They're better now after I quit music (used to play and listen a lot) and I've gotten a lot better at shutting them off with mindfulness. The old strategy is to consciously play another song that isn't as catchy though. Non-vocal music can be better too, but auto-tuned voices can really stick for some.

I found a thread once wherein a bunch of E users were saying they got earworms a lot too.

 

[socrilus]

I had ear worms really bad for a couple years. They're better now after I quit music (used to play and listen a lot) and I've gotten a lot better at shutting them off with mindfulness. The old strategy is to consciously play another song that isn't as catchy though. Non-vocal music can be better too, but auto-tuned voices can really stick for some.

I found a thread once wherein a bunch of E users were saying they got earworms a lot too.

Yes consciously playing another song does work.

But when you say 'shutting off' thoughts in general with mindfulness-I thought the whole point of mindfulness is to let the thoughts be there. Seems so contradictory. Even for OCD the things I've seen say that actively using thought suppression often doesn't work and backfires. That's like OCD 101 at least from what I've read lol. (Not going to cite anything cause this is pretty easily searchable in many places)

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

A common piece of rhetoric is to just observe the thoughts non-judgmentally and let them pass. But while observing our thoughts is a great practice to gain some perspective and learn to identify when we are thinking and lost in thought, some practitioners that are less new-age/voodoo-ish say that the ultimate goal of mindfulness is really to focus our attention in a particular manner.

Personally, if I only ever observed my earworms I think I would have them all day. For me it takes returning to an anchor to interrupt them. I usually focus on something in my visual field, or close my eyes and stare into my eyelids for a few seconds, then focus on the sensations in my hands as I resume what I was doing. There is kind of a trick to it though.

At that point I can again assume the non-judgmental state, but once I un-mindfully leave the non-judgmental state and thoughts/earworms return, I have to use an anchor to focus my attention on and get back there and e.g. rid myself of the earworm. Every time you use the anchor and return to the non-judgmental state is a victory, even if it seems like a loss.

I should mention that OCD is a special case.

 

[dj-b]

Anybody else deal with earworms (which would be one of the 'neutral' ish obsessive thoughts)?

I notice when I listen to music its far easier for a song to be stuck in my head these days. Its quite annoying.

When I look up this symptom it just says 'low serotonin' but thats way too simplified. I think everything plays a role.

Holy shit i thought it was just me. I used to get songs stuck in my head often but its wasnt to the annoying extent. but during my bad md + amps combo experience i developed a terrible thought looping, it was a terrifying moment. After i came down i had "earworms" in the form of looping segments of songs to the point where it was really annoying and i thought i was going insane for a month and a half. Near the end of that month and a half i developed these techniques to help stop the earworm song loops. What i do is focus on the sounds such as the wind and other noises around me and it helps stop the annoying looping music in my head. its like your existance is internalized and the anxiety has you looping songs instead of experiencing your surroundings. i noticed after a little more time (a week or so) while my anxiety subsided and i recovered more the "earworms" would get less and less intense and slowly would become non existant. Sadly i noticed after i rolled again recently the earworms and anxiety are back but not as bad as after my bad experience. Finally i decided to look it up and i found that its a common things with anxiety so now im not as paranoid that im losing it. I talked with another person who has knowlege about mental health and she says sounds like low seratonin so id bet if you give time to build the seratonin the earworms will subside.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

^A common technique for insomnia is to listen to your own breath, so I can definitely see listening to non-musical sounds to interrupt earworms too

 

[socrilus]

A common piece of rhetoric is to just observe the thoughts non-judgmentally and let them pass. But while observing our thoughts is a great practice to gain some perspective and learn to identify when we are thinking and lost in thought, some practitioners that are less new-age/voodoo-ish say that the ultimate goal of mindfulness is really to focus our attention in a particular manner.

Personally, if I only ever observed my earworms I think I would have them all day. For me it takes returning to an anchor to interrupt them. I usually focus on something in my visual field, or close my eyes and stare into my eyelids for a few seconds, then focus on the sensations in my hands as I resume what I was doing. There is kind of a trick to it though.

At that point I can again assume the non-judgmental state, but once I un-mindfully leave the non-judgmental state and thoughts/earworms return, I have to use an anchor to focus my attention on and get back there and e.g. rid myself of the earworm. Every time you use the anchor and return to the non-judgmental state is a victory, even if it seems like a loss.

I should mention that OCD is a special case.

I still feel like some of the MBCT studies have flaws. Take a look at this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987524/

1) they recruit patients who were not actively having symptoms of depression

2) Who is to say that the people who dropped out didnt have some kind of adverse effect and wouldn't have benefitted?

3) It assumes this cognitive reactivity to sad mood. Ive also seen some of the big mindfulness pioneers mention that is what "causes" depression and the goal of mindfulness is to stop the spiral of reactivity to 'sad' mood etc.

I take issue with that-- first of depression is much more than a sad mood.

Second of all who is to say that LTCers (or other physiologically drug medication induced mental illness sufferers) *would not* be able to cope with a 'sad' mood and get out of it without doing much. There is no evidence in my life at least to suggest otherwise. ( I havent done any gene sequencing but maybe I will sometime just to find out what my serotonin transporter alleles are but I think even ss doesnt necessarily mean that you would develop depression in response to a 'sad' mood)

I have not seen 1 single study however which talks about a total deterioration in mental health followed by a plethora of symptoms beyond just "sadness". CBT often talks about "all or nothing" thinking but a drug/med induced anxiety or depressive disorder is the closest you get to being normal (all) to nothing with skipping all the stages of mental health deterioration in between.

For example-- that study used some "sad mood induction" technique and examined cognitive reactivity. Well shit I have had "sad mood" induced by watching sad films or just getting sad news pre-LTC but I don't believe I noticed any cognitive reactivity spiraling into depression. Nor do i have any reason to believe it would trigger a relapse into the LTC after I recover.

This is COMPLETELY 100% unethical for obvious reasons but I will be convinced once the researchers induce levels of clinical depression by handing participants a drug to affect their hormone and neurotransmitter systems and then administer MBCT.

Id like to see a study where they compare purely biological depression and psychological depression and the various treatments and compare the effects.

Who knows if there is a difference in depression-anxiety risk from psychological stress vs a "biological" stress? I have a friend who gets stressed out by school a lot in the same major--he developed an anxiety disorder and eventually recovered. He went on to take MDMA multiple times and had no lasting adverse effects. I have taken it once and got an LTC.

I swear though some of the literature on MBCT or CBT is depressogenic in itself! And so are some of the therapists who say they don't go for a cure and only try to manage it!
And then theres some psychologists that try to identify triggers for the depressive or anxiety symptoms but then are completely clueless of what to do when there isn't a trigger besides saying "distract yourself"

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I still feel like some of the MBCT studies have flaws. Take a look at this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987524/

1) they recruit patients who were not actively having symptoms of depression

I wouldn't necessarily say the subjects weren't having any depressive symptoms (they averaged at just about mild depression on a particular depression inventory scoring) but it sounds like the goal of the paper was really to identify what leads to non-compliance with mindfulness therapy and I do believe they've done a good job with that bit.

2) Who is to say that the people who dropped out didnt have some kind of adverse effect and wouldn't have benefitted?

What the authors write on this subject is interesting: "However our observation that individuals who have high levels of cognitive reactivity find it more difficult to engage with MBCT does makes theoretical sense. Cognitive reactivity describes the process by which small changes in mood rapidly activate depressogenic cognitions and behavioural deficits.

Patients with high levels of cognitive reactivity are likely to be more frequently confronted with distressing thoughts and feelings and less able to respond in a way which is adaptive, when they occur. Mindfulness training requires direct and sustained contact with all experience and so is likely to bring these aversive experiences into sharp relief, earlier in the process of treatment than might be the case for patients with less reactive profiles.

Similarly those who typically respond to unwanted experiences with brooding are invited to relinquish their habitual responses from the outset of treatment, before they have had the opportunity to experience the benefits of this approach directly.

Research in substance abuse populations shows that low levels of psychological distress tolerance predict early dropout from treatment (Daughters et al. 2005), and it would be interesting in future research to explore the extent to which the same is true of MBCT."

So it could be the case that, as they say, "individuals with high levels of cognitive reactivity, brooding and depressive rumination may find it particularly difficult to engage with MBCT, although paradoxically they are likely to have the most to gain from the development of mindfulness skills if they remain in class."

3) It assumes this cognitive reactivity to sad mood.

I take issue with that-- first of depression is much more than a sad mood.

Second of all who is to say that LTCers (or other physiologically drug medication induced mental illness sufferers) *would not* be able to cope with a 'sad' mood and get out of it without doing much. There is no evidence in my life at least to suggest otherwise. ( I havent done any gene sequencing but maybe I will sometime just to find out what my serotonin transporter alleles are but I think even ss doesnt necessarily mean that you would develop depression in response to a 'sad' mood)

What they seem to be testing there is how the induction of an acute mood affects cognitive performance (they are only focused on the cognitive performance). If you want a chemical version of this mood induction, they could test the effect that mindfulness training has on cognitive deficits induced during tryptophan depletion.

We know that the effect that tryptophan depletion has on patients is dependent on serotonin transporter genes to a large degree, but the interesting thing is that while everyone will have an alteration in cognitive performance during tryptophan depletion, really only those with the short form will have mood deterioration as well.

Since it appears that mindfulness may increase performance on a test (the go/no-go test) that is sensitive to tryptophan depletion and is also abnormal in prior ecstasy users with the short form (ss), we may predict that mindfulness could also offer some protection against dysregulation induced by tryptophan depletion.

For example-- that study used some "sad mood induction" technique and examined cognitive reactivity. Well shit I have had "sad mood" induced by watching sad films or just getting sad news pre-LTC but I don't believe I noticed any cognitive reactivity spiraling into depression. Nor do i have any reason to believe it would trigger a relapse into the LTC after I recover.

This really makes tryptophan depletion the more interesting test because its what has been classically used to cause a recurrence of depressive symptoms in recovered depressives, but once again just to clarify, I think they are referring to cognitive reactivity in the sense that mood can disrupt cognition.

I have not seen 1 single study however which talks about a total deterioration in mental health followed by a plethora of symptoms beyond just "sadness". CBT often talks about "all or nothing" thinking but a drug/med induced anxiety or depressive disorder is the closest you get to being normal (all) to nothing with skipping all the stages of mental health deterioration in between.

We may draw upon the traumatic brain injury literature here, where mindfulness has been shown to be effective for some symptoms including depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22875545


Lastly I'll just point out that you seem really oppositional to mindfulness/CBT and I find this very interesting. When you go back and read the paper you linked (or the wall of text I pasted), its interesting to note that you do seem to fit the profile of someone who would have more trouble with mindfulness but could also stand to gain more.

For example, "Patients with high levels of cognitive reactivity are likely to be more frequently confronted with distressing thoughts and feelings and less able to respond in a way which is adaptive, when they occur.

Mindfulness training requires direct and sustained contact with all experience and so is likely to bring these aversive experiences into sharp relief, earlier in the process of treatment than might be the case for patients with less reactive profiles."

 

[socrilus]

Well can MBCT *prevent* low mood entirely after tryptophan depletion , I don't think that MBCT can prevent it but only affect the way one deals with it.

Im truly looking for something that can prevent low moods from occuring in the first place, but that seems impossible for now.

Other than that as you know the #1 frustrating thing I find about mindfulness or CBT is that it does not work fast enough. If it worked fast to provide noticeable improvement on a daily basis then I don't think id have many complaints tbh. Then an MBCT practitioner would say be mindful of the impatience and observe it pass or be mindful of the frustration with mindfulness and at that point I literally go nuts lol. Again, not during the actual meditation, but during the day of "applied mindfulness".

Applied mindfulness is far more difficult and I sometimes get agitated just thinking "omg now I have to examine that tree and feel the floor omg my mood is the same wtf this doesn't work omg I have to have no expectations of this actually working on my mood...fuhhh I need to be mindful of all of these and watch them from a distance" That thought of "when will it kick in" I just need to observe it and maybe this will never kick in and I need to be ok with that.

And now you can see how sometimes it just causes me a lot of agitation.

Im always thinking on the line of "when will this kick in". Lets keep this in mind: When somebody has school/grades to uphold or work for $$$ to support their family and are in need of relatively fast improvement , mindfulness is very difficult.

There is the added stress of for example grades and the future and mindfulness requires one to detach and just observe thoughts of that but that doesn't actually help getting straight A's and B's (for example) along with holding down an internship and relationship with a girl. I do not see how that can be done without some form of symptomatic relief. And then in the comparison to old self MBCT would encourage "letting go and coming back in touch to the present" etc. But how to actually improve the present? Some guided ones don't even try for that.

Thanks for the TBI reference btw, I was not aware of it still working there.

Personally one thing I've found beneficial more than mindfulness is distraction through cognitively engaging exercises like video games and playing chess. I wasn't that great before but I sort of took it up as a hobby and I'm better at it now. I imagine at least more so than video games an activity like chess might be better at a neural level?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I'm sure it wouldn't prevent low mood entirely, but I wouldn't be surprised if it would have some effects on the percentage of patients that enter a major depressive episode after repeated tryptophan depletion.

RE: applied mindfulness vs. chess/video games - I think its funny that people always compare mindfulness to things such as brain exercises because they don't necessarily have to be discrete. So if someone is concerned about their struggles with schoolwork or a relationship or job performance, there can be benefits to applied mindfulness if it is done properly enough (which does take practice).

As an example, mindful listening in a relationship. Typically we are just waiting for our turn to talk, formulating a response in our heads when we should really be listening attentively and allowing our brains to fully process the input without the interruption of our self and thoughts. There is certainly a time when its our time to respond where we may choose to lose the mindfulness but some people have the ability to just let words come to the surface without necessarily running them through their head first.

Some people can also read without actually speaking the words aloud in their head, funnily enough. They can simply scan their eyes over the text and derive meaning (I hope this makes sense).

See mindfulness/"mindful reading" in the treatment of reading issues seen in dyslexia and ADHD for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4862243/


But RE: cognitive exercises, there is some debate as to whether they actually improve overall cognition or if people just get better at the specific exercises. I lean towards there being cognitive benefits outside of the specific exercise/activity. I would assume that different video games offer different benefits, and that there could be benefits to consuming a salad of different games and such. But playing games intentionally mindfully would be interesting to study, although I think a lot of people end up playing a game mindfully if they like it and its stimulating enough to hold their attention.

 

[notanymoremdmable]

Anyone here who could bring some hope to my so so hopeless life atm?

I'm totally unable to concentrate even for 30 or so seconds when I'm alone. Like, seriously. I can't read a news story. I can't watch a Youtube clip. Strangely enough, I CAN concentrate while I'm with other people to what they are saying, although that's also far from 100%. But while alone, my ability to concentrate is basically non existent.

My memory is 100% fucked. Totally fucked. I can't remember anything. I can't remember have I eaten if I've ate an hour ago without thinking it hard. I can't fucking remember have I shampooed my hair already in the shower. I forget names and places I've used known. I forgot basically what I was supposed to write right now.

I have major depression, anxiety and paranoia, although surprisingly today has been pretty stable day and I'm not that depressed atm (probably why I'm able to write this post.)

Haven't used molly for 4 months, 3 times in the past year. I have used coke and amphetamine few times this year.

Is there anyone, anywhere, anyhow who has recovered from something like this? I've lied to myself for a long long time as a defense to hide the fact that there seems to be no one who actually has gotten his/her life back. I'm so worried that this is it, this is my life, this is my brain and if it wont go away I'll have to kill myself. This is fucking horrible and I can't take this anymore.

 

[Amml]

Hey, I had similar symptoms even into the half year mark of my recovery, sometimes not even capable of doing daily activities. It majorly improved after taking SSRI's because it seemed that most of it was psychological, due to worrying too much about my condition. It also came together with brain fog and depression. It's now about 1 1/2 years from my last MDMA use and I'm doing a lot better now. Daily tasks are not a problem anymore and there is only a small memory impairment left. I nearly never talked to somebody about my condition and always tried to hide it, which caused some more stress. I think talking with the people around you about that could be helpful, also seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist.