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MDMA mixed with Piperazines Pipes BZP

Been looking into one of my symptoms which is an altered perception of time.

I find since my allergic reaction to BZP I have no concept of time. Days all fade into one. One month seems like a day, half a year seems like a week.

My ability of time recognition since this experience has been shattered.

One theory is memory damage.

Another theory is MDMA can upset the HPA Axis and raise CORTISOL levels.

There is some evidence to suggest this hormone CORTISOL can interfere with your perception of time.

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/32/1/39.full.pdf

A possible relationship between variations of hormone levels and changes in time perception is suggested by the work
of several authors. In our laboratory, for example, marked variations in time perception were discovered during various phases of the menstrual cycle.8 Women tended to produce longer time intervals in the premenstrual period, which is a time of progesterone withdrawal." The influences of thyroid hormone on time perception have been described by Stern10-n and Kleber et aV2 A possible relationship between cortisol levels and time estimation is suggested by the similarity in the diurnal changes in both time estimation as reported by Thor13 and cortisol levels as reported by Migeon et al.u

Numerous factors have been shown to affect time perception. These factors include, among others, body temperature12- 19-20 and mental status.21-22'2S Administration of certain drugs, such as barbiturates and amphetamine, in some cases also seems to affect time perception. Interpretation of results seen in drug administration customarily involves the metaphor of an internal clock, whose rate is changed by the drugs in question.
Thus, elevated body temperature19 appears to accelerate the internal clock, while barbiturates24-25 and nitrous oxide26 appear to slow this clock. It is possible that cortisol exerted the effects we observed by mechanisms other than by decelerating the event generating portion of the internal clock. Cortisol could interfere with perception of the
time defining events (whatever they maybe);

Cortisol interferes with a subject's ability to attend selectively to significant stimuli. With selection and filtration impaired, and with his time sense distorted, the subject (or patient) has increasing difficulty with perceptual input. The
high incidence of premorbid pathology in patients who later develop psychoses accompanying the use of corticosteroids37 would support an interaction between perceptual alterations and a weakened ego which defines both the presence or absence as well as the form of symptoms. An extrapolation of any such proposal to account for the psychiatric disturbances observed in patients with Cushing's disease and conditions involving chronic corticosteroid administration should be made with great caution, considering the difference between acute administration and chronic exposure to the drug. For example, chronic states could affect enzyme synthesis that could cause CNS
changes of a different sort from acute administration; also in chronic states CNS compensations could occur.

In general, these results may be described metaphorically as indicating that cortisol slows the rate of an internal clock, or otherwise interferes with the perception of internal timing elements.
 
Greetings all. My gf and I experienced a similar disaster on NYE of 2011. We had some pure molly which I had personally tested.

We started off the night with 150mg of molly each. After 90 minutes, we took an additional 100mg of molly.

At the 180 minute mark, the night was going great, but we decided that we wanted something with a little speed to keep us going. Our source had dropped off a bunch of beans. I had tested and researched almost all of them. Everything tested good, plus we found pill reports for most of them. However, there was one bean that we couldn't find anything on ... and I didn't test. However, my source told me that they were good 'speedy' pills.

So -- we took the untested beans and our night went to hell. We have major gaps in our memories from that night. My gf would get extremely hot and then freezing cold. We couldn't sleep. We smoked a bowl, but that kicked everything up. One minute we would be looking at a watch and noting the time ... and then suddenly 30 minutes had passed and we were in a different room of the house (with no memory in between of moving around the house). Emotions were all over the place. Lots of panic and anxiety (at one point, she thought our dog was dead and she FREAKED). We completely lost our ability to understand 'time'.

We finally crashed around 7-8AM the next morning. We had lots of sleep issues over the next couple of weeks. Random heart palpitations. Basically we both felt like emotional shit (or totally apathetic) for two weeks.

We didn't touch anything for ~4 months after that. The next time we rolled, we took two medium dose pills (per pillreports.org) and ~100mg of molly each. Other people enjoyed the same beans, but we had an extremely mild roll when we should have been tripping balls. She didn't feel great for a few days. I had emotional issues for a week after.

Fast forward 3 months -- roughly the same experience. However, this time, my 'emotional roller coaster' issues lasted ~3 months. Right about the time that I was starting to wonder if I had become bipolar, things started to mellow out.

At the time, I thought that the issues were because of personal stress. However, I've never been like that before in my life. We took an 8 month break from rolling after all of that.

We finally rolled again after eight months (3 pills each at a desert party) and things were all good. No recovery issues. No emotional roller coaster.


Background: We are both in our late 30's. She is 6' and ~150lbs. I'm 6' 3" and ~200 lbs. We space our rolls by at least 3 months minimum. She's been doing it for ~6 years, while I've only been doing it for ~3 years. We typically take 3-4 pills over an 8-12 hour window and rarely have any issues afterwards. On a final note, all of the molly mentioned above was from the same batch. We had used it three or four times to boost pills before and always had a great experience.
 
Question -- has anyone on here tried any of the nooptropic supplements to help with recovery? (piracetam, aniracetam (sp?), etc...)

I still have periodic memory loss issues. I've since started taking 800mg of pirecetam with 300mg of choline twice a day. After a month of use, I'm definitely seeing a mental improvement.
 
Hello Tzeentch

Many thanks for your contribution and report.

Both Cope and myself chat about this topic on Skype everyday so hopefully our shared info will be of help to you.

Re the piracetam best to speak with cope about that. He is experiencing long term problems with MDMA/BZP and has used Piracetam.

So far I have not taken piracetam so cannot give you good feedback.


This is what I think I have learnt about the BZP/MDMA combo

When you mix MDMA and BZP there are certain people that have a terrible allergic reaction. Sometimes even small dose is enough to trigger it. Sometimes BZP on its own is enough.

People with genetic varients of the Enzymes COMT and CYP2D6 render individuals particularly susceptible to the occurrence of this BZP / MDMA combo effect.

Also if you have higher dose of MDMA then mix BZP this seems to cause a larger proportion of people to have this allergic reaction.

The BZP and the MDMA massively inhibit the CYP2D6 enzyme (a combined effect) that is responsible for breaking down / metabolising these compounds and the body basically gets over toxicated. It seems the enzyme kind of gives up under the influence of the two drugs and your body cant cope with the intoxication.

We all respond in different ways but I beleive that a big part of the problem is the natural steroid hormone in our body Cortisol. When cortisol is high Seretonin is low. The HPA-Axis gets knocked out and as a result you can get raised blood pressure, increased heart patterns, generally messed up hormone levels that make your entire living sometimes a feeling of total pain.

I also think the brain gets hammered in some way. my symptoms are HPPD, memory loss, anxiety, depression, paranoia, ocd and panic attacks.

What we are trying to figure out is precisely what happens to you when you experience this come down and possible remedies that can either rectify or releive the symptoms. I sometimes wonder if the body gets locked in some kind of state. ie an enzyme gets disabled in some way or a receptor somehow locked up.

We have tracked down some highly skilled doctors both in Canada and New Zealand studying this DRUG>DRUG interaction.

I have sent out emails with questions and as soon as we get replies we will post in this thread.


Reading your story it tells me the same thing again and again. Age, drug history, actual dose at time are all so varied.

It just seems to be an allergic reaction that affect some more than others. The guy who remarketed this BZP drug needs a bullet to the head thats for sure. The pain and suffering this drug has caused.

The memory loss issues you have both myself and cope have also. I beleive thizzin also has it. From what I read this could be raised cortisol it could be some type of neurotoxicity. I dont know for sure the cause.

Its interesting to hear you are having joy with piracetam.

In my questions to the doctors I have asked about the cause of the memory loss so once I get a reply I will post on here for you.



Just so you know about me

I am male, 38, Live in UK

I have had two of these horrible BZP comedowns one lasted 6 months, the other still happening now month 11.

this recent attack I triggered it with a dutch style MDMA pill about 150mG, an MDMA capsule approx 100mg and then two unknown at the time pills later to discover were BZP.

I am currently trying an antidepressant Mirtazapine. Only been on this for 8 days now so will keep you posted.



Thank you very much for your input tzeen Cope should come on here later and also give you some feedback about your condition.

Best wishes

Futura
 
Hi !

about the piracetam, i took it daily the first 3,5 months of my now 4,5 month comedown. i have to say i could not make out a real difference to not taking it. though its well studied and cannot hurt. the experiences i read from another forum vary, some swear by it, some notice nothing. it is often recommended to start with a "attack dose" for the first 2-3 days, like 5g a day plus it can take months to get noticable results.

if you are suffering from memory problems and they are not severe i would rather recommend memory training and physical exercise.
for me its a bit more drastic, i am having no emotions, apathy, tinnitus, terrible headaches - oh and the memory thing. :)
it seems to get better over time, so i have to sit it out.

if you want to take supplements check out turmeric (or circium). in countries where its part of the diet as spice the alzheimer rates are very low.

@ futura, looking forward to see the replies of your mails. :)

best of luck to all of you
 
A year ago, almost exactly, I believe I took some kind of pipe (maybe BZP...?) and later on MDMA and I also took a legal "herbal" ecstasy vial called blue lagoon earlier that night, along with copious amounts of alcohol....so anyways everything was fine until I took the weird orangey MDMA powder.

I took it at a later time than my friends who popped it, I had an uneasy feeling about this "mdma" because of the vibe I got from the guy who sold it to us (at a rave....) It was also strangely orange and didn't taste like mdma lol. Really dumb,.... I regret taking it so badly, although I was under the influence and didn't really care at the time.

My two friends started to throw up A LOT for the next hour, I don't remember the rave at all and when I got home that night I couldn't get to sleep, had major heart palpitations, extreme anxiety, thought I was going to die, couldn't eat...ect.ect. I was 120lbs and 17 years old.

For the coming month I had intense derealization, anxiety and just felt like crap, my apetite changed and I lost 15lbs. Prior to this night I had abused MDMA the whole year and just a few days before this night I had taken mdma 3 nights in a row at a music festival. I have definitely learned my lesson now, but honestly, the single worst comedown I've had was from that night. Even after binges on pure mdma I felt like crap for a day or two after but never felt like this before.

But there's a happy ending....it's been a year later, I've taken MDMA probably 10x since then and I feel better than ever before! So if you're feeling like you'll never get better have faith! Brains have a powerful way of healing themselves.
 
Hello Fake Plastic Trees

Thanks so much for your input.

"Really dumb,.... I regret taking it so badly, although I was under the influence and didn't really care at the time. "

Wow havent we all been in that spot before LOL.

There seems to be no rules in how long it takes to recover. The most common times seem to be one month, 6 months and one year.

Just out of interest did you have your cortisol levels checked out during this comedown? as we have a feeling this might be very closely linked to the longterm bzp comedown people can get.

Also did you take any meds or suppliments to help with your recovery?

Thanks for your story great contribution to this thread.

Its very good for people suffering to know recovery is very much a reality.
 
about the piracetam, i took it daily the first 3,5 months of my now 4,5 month comedown. i have to say i could not make out a real difference to not taking it. though its well studied and cannot hurt. the experiences i read from another forum vary, some swear by it, some notice nothing. it is often recommended to start with a "attack dose" for the first 2-3 days, like 5g a day plus it can take months to get noticable results.

How much were you taking? Were you supplementing it with choline?

I've found that it helps with alertness and memory issues. However, it hasn't done anything for my apathy related issues. Meh.
 
Hello Tzeentch

Are you still suffering from appathy and memory loss?

Still taking pills also?
 
Hello Fake Plastic Trees

Thanks so much for your input.

"Really dumb,.... I regret taking it so badly, although I was under the influence and didn't really care at the time. "

Wow havent we all been in that spot before LOL.

There seems to be no rules in how long it takes to recover. The most common times seem to be one month, 6 months and one year.

Just out of interest did you have your cortisol levels checked out during this comedown? as we have a feeling this might be very closely linked to the longterm bzp comedown people can get.

Also did you take any meds or suppliments to help with your recovery?

Thanks for your story great contribution to this thread.

Its very good for people suffering to know recovery is very much a reality.


No I didn't check my cortisol levels. Although I started to drink a ridiculous amount of coffee at around that time. Maybe the downregulation ?
Didn't take any medication or supplements either, I waited 3 months before I touched MDMA again though.

I remember feeling a particularly intense pressure in the back of my head when I would smoke weed, and I would get extremely light headed when I would drink alcohol. This lasted for a week.
 
No I didn't check my cortisol levels. Although I started to drink a ridiculous amount of coffee at around that time. Maybe the downregulation ?
Didn't take any medication or supplements either, I waited 3 months before I touched MDMA again though.

I remember feeling a particularly intense pressure in the back of my head when I would smoke weed, and I would get extremely light headed when I would drink alcohol. This lasted for a week.


When I had my first comedown I didnt take anything either. Nothing just rode it out cold turkey.

There is an argument that if you dont really think about it you fix your mind quicker.

Now you mention the coffee I also recall hitting the energy drinks in the morning to get some energy.

Weed I didnt do during the long comedown but most report weed not being very beneficial for this comedown period. The main problem seems to be weed causing worse anxiety.

How long did your Pipe comedown exactly last?

Do you have any more long term symptoms left over such as memory or appathy issues?
 
When I had my first comedown I didnt take anything either. Nothing just rode it out cold turkey.

There is an argument that if you dont really think about it you fix your mind quicker.

Now you mention the coffee I also recall hitting the energy drinks in the morning to get some energy.

Weed I didnt do during the long comedown but most report weed not being very beneficial for this comedown period. The main problem seems to be weed causing worse anxiety.

How long did your Pipe comedown exactly last?

Do you have any more long term symptoms left over such as memory or appathy issues?

I'd say the worst part of the comedown was a month long, after that I had some anxiety issues for a few months but I've always had those.

A year after this experience I don't feel any long term effects from it. I have stopped smoking weed every day and my memory is great, don't feel any apathy issues at all.
 
I'd say the worst part of the comedown was a month long, after that I had some anxiety issues for a few months but I've always had those.

A year after this experience I don't feel any long term effects from it. I have stopped smoking weed every day and my memory is great, don't feel any apathy issues at all.

It is very good to hear you have recovered. Particularly after just one month.

The only thing I would say is watch the anxiety.

As you get older the MDMA has a habit of making this situation a lot worse. I suffered from Anxiety throughout my life and the MDMA for sure has made it a lot worse.

If you can think of anything more relating to your BZP comedown please post on here.

Hearing about someone who has suffered and recovered is good news for many others.

Thanks for sharing.
 
How much were you taking? Were you supplementing it with choline?

I've found that it helps with alertness and memory issues. However, it hasn't done anything for my apathy related issues. Meh.

hi tzeentch,

i took about 2-4g a day along with choline and i can't really say if it helped, but it didn't make things worse.

it seems it is used for recovery of alcoholics, but i don't know if its helpful for other drug induced damage.

i think the most important factor in terms of recovery is time.

best of luck
 
Hello Tzeentch

Are you still suffering from appathy and memory loss?

Still taking pills also?

Apathy -- yes. This is a continuing issue. I used to be a serious driver before all of this.

Memory issues have significantly improved since starting piracetam. It's also helped me to stay more focused and alert.

As for pills -- we've taken a solid four month break from everything except for light drinking. We have an event coming up and will be taking a known pill. I'll post more details in about 2 weeks.
 
Hello tzeentch

The apathy and memory thing is a real pain for sure.

Interesting to hear about the piracetam. I have ordered some and will give it a try soon.

Re the pills. Quite risky if you are still suffering from memory and apathy issues.

Please let us know how it goes.

I found after my first long term comedown pills and MDMA were never the same.

Always made me feel kinda wired rather than empathy. kinda tweaked out.

im not sure if its caused by an imbalance or a brain issue.
 
Wow. That's an awful lot to digest without a few cups of coffee. Thanks for putting everything in one place!
 
hi !

nice work on the folder with the documents futura.

since both mdma and piperazines act on the serotonic system i think the damage it causes is similar.

they seem to potentiate each other, that's why some people get hit so hard by this combo.
 
Good thread, i think piperazine and MDMA combo is the easiest way to fry your brain with out dying (or sometimes actually dying :| ) Anyways those of us who have experienced this know how bad it can be. I'm not sure if the piperzine i took was bzp or mcpp or something similar but it must have caused the same reaction. My heart wouldnt stop pounding and the dissociation and stuff i was getting was out of this world. Just think of every bad side effect someone can get and add it all together happening at once. The enzyme inhibition makes sense, no wonder it is such a damaging combo. I also think the experience is just so horrendous that it is not only a chemical reaction that is damaging us from that night, it is the trauma that sticks with us. It is just too much stress at once to be tripping out on a pipe and not knowing if you will make it to see tomorrow. Best thing to do is not get so caught up in it, whats done is done. Focus on getting better, only thing we can do : (
 
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