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Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] Extremely High Doses & Receptor Saturation

I never used get histamine release from LSD when I was younger ( that I can recall) I do now on occassion & usually the more LSD the greater the histamine release, but not always......why I don't know, what I do know is it's no bad thing to have antihistamines about your person.
 
B9 said:
& Definitely - tho I wouldn't go so far as to say quantity was "nothing"

Lol! Nah, i wouldn't either! Quanitity is important!
I was just doin the whole "Image is nothing. Taste is everything. Obey your thirst. Drink SPRITE!" thing. =D
 
I have to say that the most violently formative experiences I've had come from high doses. I was once inadverntantly dosed incredibly high. I don't know but I'd imagine it was past the saturation point as I tripped for longer than I should off LSD and it was most certainly, verified LSD. That being said this past weekend I had a small get together with some close friends about 5 of which being professionals musicians we had an all night jam that left my mind reeling. Myself and two others had dosed rather low on LSD. Enough to be tripping and have a magnanimous mindstate but not enough to enter an entirely different realm. It was overwhelming positive and a good experience. I started out eating acid with the whole mindset that it could change my perspective and viewed as a sacrament of sorts. When I keep these thoughts in mind and remember to live rationally any amount of acid can be an amazing, life-altering experience. Set and setting. It's very true.

But high doses of acid... jeesh... I like getting pretty spun and I cannot guess at the actual dose that would equate to "pretty spun." Not that if we knew it would matter because everyone acts differently. But from reading different trip reports (actual trips reports from the 50's and 60's" what constitutes pretty spun is pretty low compared to LSD's ceiling. 250mcg or so had profound effects on the body and mind.

Also, maybe it's just me, I can get fairly bad body load off acid. Sometimes it may be orgasmic body shudders that take my breath away other times it's a knot in my stomach. Don't say it's a DOX... I've spent more than my fair share of time experiencing those. Apart from the body load I'd feel apprehensive about large doses of acid. I sometimes casual munch down acid, especially if I'm already on a fair amount, but this is rare. A good friend of mine (my e-dick's a little chubby now) and I went through an amazing amount of good acid in a short period of time (this batch was seized so I know it was potent L *half smile*) recently and honestly by the 4th day I had probably had receptor saturation and a density of 5ht receptors that wouldn't be able to excite the brain of one of the lower primates. I had some true realizations, but when it all comes down to it... it was me, not the drugs. LSD was the vehicle for 18 hour jams and hikes and longing for my far-away love. All that rambling bullshit aside high dose LSD can teach you something, but are you brave enough? Don't go into with a party mindset. Go into it remembering to breath properly and just go with it. Fear is pointless.

Peace,
P"Goddamnthesemushrooms"L
 
Ismene said:
All that can be said for certain about very high dose LSD is that one person will react like the person on the left and one like the person on the right in the following clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sgQYDJ3tQo

Brilliant analogy. Thanks for that Ismene - I laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed.

Phew. Now I've recovered.
 
HUGE Doses of LSD?

When I say huge, I mean HUGE! Like a thumbprint, something in the mg range. Anyway, my question is this.

I hear everywhere that on huge doses of acid, you trip for days. Now, I never believe it, I always think they're making it up, because as we all know, acid is out of your body in ~4 hours, and you trip for a max of 12. I recently read something that might bring some light to the subject, metabolism.

Pretty much, a huge dose of acid like that supposedly takes a LONG time to fully metabolize, so that's why people trip for days on a dose of that scale. Is that true?
 
because as we all know, acid is out of your body in ~4 hours, and you trip for a max of 12.
untrue. Initial reports from decades ago said it was out of the system in 4 hours, but what they really meant was it was "below detectable levels" in 4 hours. Thus LSD stays in your blood for roughly as long as you are tripping.

I recently read something that might bring some light to the subject, metabolism.

Pretty much, a huge dose of acid like that supposedly takes a LONG time to fully metabolize, so that's why people trip for days on a dose of that scale. Is that true?

Metabolism only involves a drug's DESTRUCTION or CHANGE in the body. Some drugs are also EXCRETED (passed through) unchanged. Most drugs have some complex combination of various metabolic pathways that may be different in various individuals (for example: the native american or asian alcoholic "red-face" is a direct result of the body's LACK of enzymes which thoroughly break down alcohol into vinegar)

It is entirely possible for low doses of a drug to have a particular (say, 6-hour) half-life of elimination at low doses, with an entirely different profile (like 18 hour) at higher doses because of enzyme saturation.Some drugs can also build up in fatty tissues, leading to a longer duration of presence in the body.

Basically the answer is, I don't have first hand experience to confirm or deny :)
 
I hear everywhere that on huge doses of acid, you trip for days. Now, I never believe it, I always think they're making it up

You're right not to believe it Diz. The human brain only has so many receptors. Once they are filled it doesn't matter if you take 10 grams of LSD - you won't trip any harder. You may notice stronger physical effects as your body eliminates it but you psychedelics arn't like alcohol - you don't just keep on getting higher and higher the bigger the dose. TIm Leary always said that as long as he told someone he was giving them 200 mics he could give them pretty much any dose of LSD he wanted and they would still think it was 200 mics.
 
I remember reading the saturation point is somewhere around 1.5mg. The most I have ever taken was around 1mg or a little less (10 reasonably potent blotters, though nothing special). I had a small tolerance at the time but despite this did trip quite hard. The duration was pretty much the same as lower dose trips.
 
I've done ten hits before and I can't see the trip getting much more intense than that. The most amazing experience of my life, or one of them. I literally saw a tree turn into flames like it was on fire.

The limitation of receptor sites make sense. Take too much and it may just be a waste of drugs. Not only that, but while you may not trip any harder, body load could potentially increase.

Edit: Also, I used to hear dudes bragging about taking a sheet of acid and being gone for a month. Yeah right. I don't believe it. Funny how in hippie circles taking acid is like the right of passage. If your ego can survive a ten strip though, my guess is it could survive a vial. But then again, that's just my ego talking.
 
There is a 5HT2s receptor saturation point for LSD, I've heard 500 mics in some place and 1500 mics in others.. I wish I knew the exact data this was based off of. In either case, it is not a phenomenally high amount relative to the potency.

LSD also affects the dopamine and adrenergic receptors as well as others, which means you have an experience that is produced through a variety of pathways in the brain. Going above the 5HT2a saturation point means you're potentially much more greatly activating some of these receptors, and to what end exactly is best left to speculation.

While 5HT2a activation is the indisputable common denominator amongst the "traditional" psychedelics, I'm a proponent of the theory that psychedelia is more an expression of multiple neurochemical elements working in tandem than being utterly dominated by serotonin. The unique differences between various chemicals and the interconnection of our neurochemical systems, etc. are a testament to this.
 
I've done ten hits before and I can't see the trip getting much more intense than that. The most amazing experience of my life, or one of them. I literally saw a tree turn into flames like it was on fire.

The limitation of receptor sites make sense. Take too much and it may just be a waste of drugs. Not only that, but while you may not trip any harder, body load could potentially increase.

Edit: Also, I used to hear dudes bragging about taking a sheet of acid and being gone for a month. Yeah right. I don't believe it. Funny how in hippie circles taking acid is like the right of passage. If your ego can survive a ten strip though, my guess is it could survive a vial. But then again, that's just my ego talking.

My ego likes your ego's post
 
There is a 5HT2s receptor saturation point for LSD, I've heard 500 mics in some place and 1500 mics in others.. I wish I knew the exact data this was based off of. In either case, it is not a phenomenally high amount relative to the potency.

Receptor regulation. Maybe two people have N number of receptors but one person has less E serotonin per receptor at any given point in time. So his initial regulation Ri(N, E) = k(E/N) would be higher. Therefore, when both people take take m mcg's of acid, the guy who had a higher regulation (lower serotonin per receptor) would feel it more. Come to think of it, this doesn't affect the saturation point at all. But anyway, say we make S (for sensitivity of highness) =

S = k(E/N) = Ri

* It is important to understand that H/N (serotonin per receptor) may intuitively sound proportional to how high you feel, however you must keep in mind that these values are the day-day sober constants, so we can make the distinction that there is no correlation between how high one feels and his sensitivity before drugs are involved.

How is the dosage related to all this? How do we take into consideration saturation point? This brings us to the next point: how many receptors you have. Research shows that individuals with ADHD have a lower amount of dopamine receptors. It is a safe presumption to say the same thing can be applied to serotonin. In other words, a person with half the receptors of another will reach his or her saturation point A at half the dose. Therefore:

A ∝ N

When A, N, and Ri are known and held constant, what affect does dosage have on the highness? Our team of scientists found out that the dosage increases relative (thought not linear) to the increase in serotonin, which makes sense. In mathematical terms, it appears highness H is equal to the new serotonin/receptor ratio Sr divided by the sober sensitivity S0 - 1 (the -1 is there so that if Ef = Ei, there is no change, thus no highness)

Ef (final serotonin) = L (amount contributed by LSD) + Ei (initial serotonin)

H = (Sr / S0) - 1 = (Ef/N) / (Ei/N) - 1 = Ef/Ei -1 = (L + Ei)/Ei - 1 = L/Ei


If the amount of highness one feels is equal to L/Ei (amount of serotonin contributed from LSD / initial serotonin), what exactly is L in relation to m (mcg of LSD)? As discussed above, the saturation point is proportional to N number of receptors. But what kind of effect does the proportion have on the saturation point?

To find out, our scientists gave 50 kids LSD. It was noted that each of them responded to dose curve relative to their dose, and a horizontal asymptote at their "maximum highness" and an intercept at (0,0). In other words. As the dose approaches infinity, their highness approaches a certain number. Furthermore, all other variables constant, their highness varied precisely according an arctan function. So the steps of deriving the highness function are as follows:

H = arctan(S*m)*2pi*A/Ei = (since A∝N) = arctan(S*m)*2pi*kA/Ei = arctan(kS*m)*2pi*kRi^-1 =

Thus we have related the highness to
N number of receptors
Ei average serotonin per receptor in a sober state
m Amount of LSD in mcg


H(N, Ei, m) = P*arctan(Ei/N * km)*2pi*(N/Ei)

Where P is the yet to be determined Peter constant, and k is the microgram conversation constant.
If anyone could find out the value and units for k and P that would be awesome.
 
a kid once told me that he did 10 hits and tripped for a little over 2 days, cuz he didn't know how much he was supposed to take the first time.

personally, i can't even imagine taking 10 hits, and i'm getting scared just thinking about what would be going through my mind. I feel like the impact it would have on me mentally would be enough to kill me.
 
Receptor regulation. Maybe two people have N number of receptors but one person has less E serotonin per receptor at any given point in time. So his initial regulation Ri(N, E) = k(E/N) would be higher. Therefore, when both people take take m mcg's of acid, the guy who had a higher regulation (lower serotonin per receptor) would feel it more. Come to think of it, this doesn't affect the saturation point at all. But anyway, say we make S (for sensitivity of highness) =

S = k(E/N) = Ri

... etc etc

Pretty funny, sheepie! (obviously that's just a pile of made-up silliness)
 
I think after such a profound experience that it takes the brain days to get back to a functional operational level for society.... That sort of experience is like asking what it feels like to die.

I wouldn't even consider what I was on to be "heroic" but I have had 2 doses rock me on another level. And then I watched some people drop like 10 onto their tongues.
 
When I say huge, I mean HUGE! Like a thumbprint, something in the mg range. Anyway, my question is this.

I hear everywhere that on huge doses of acid, you trip for days. Now, I never believe it, I always think they're making it up, because as we all know, acid is out of your body in ~4 hours, and you trip for a max of 12. I recently read something that might bring some light to the subject, metabolism.

Pretty much, a huge dose of acid like that supposedly takes a LONG time to fully metabolize, so that's why people trip for days on a dose of that scale. Is that true?

You dont even need full single mg of high quality acid to trip for over 24 hours,I mean tripping,not being funked up from lack of sleep.
 
i saw nanobrain say once that 30mg of LSD was pretty different than 1.5mg of LSD... and that guy knows what he's talking about.
 
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