☛ Official ☚ [LSA's Subthread] Extraction of LSA's

[Doldrugs]

I have an important question, after you extract the Morning Glory's LSA using the alcohol method. How much of the yellow gummy LSA do you place in each capsule for a strong dose?

You have to predose it. Weighing that shit is pretty much out of the question. How much did you use for the full extraction?

 

[matteblvck]

hi morninggloryseed, this is actually my first post on this forum so Im not fully confident on the protocol. Anyway, I would like to know what extraction method can be done with about 20 HBWRs (the rest of my package) and maybe some naptha. I have tripped 3 or 4 times before with them and they are pretty nice but the nausau is a little difficult especially when you only have a pinch of nug with you most of the time. Hopefully, I can get a good answer.

 

[lucis13]

I wouldn't recommend trying it, the original recipe is from the Dr. John Dee translation of the Necronomicon and he advises to refine it with Benzine and Methanol. I did it with naptha and 100% isopropyl alcohol because I wanted to achieve an out of body experience. First I could recall memories from 20 years ago with vivid recollection, but a couple of hours later I almost fainted with lots of floaters and colours in my sight completely dominating my entire field of vision and for a few minutes I thought that I could loose my sight, but fortunately it subsided... This was at a very small dose. This stuff is a smelly residue, yellow to golden brown in colour it smells like sweaty feet and tastes like cat piss and the arsehole of a hyena. I think it's basically solvent abuse and could be carcinogenic. You're just best grinding the morning glory seeds up and mixing them into a yogurt, you'll vomit eventually because it hasn't been extracted but it's a lot better than possibly getting cancer, a brain tumor or going blind.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Welcome to bluelight. I may not be the best person to ask since I haven't done morning glory seeds of any variety in almost 20 years and the few times I made water extracts they were never that great. Looking back I bet it was 'cause I used tap water (and chlorine is supposed to be a no-no). Based on the information in the below thread...I believe the best way is...not sure! :/

Some info suggests basic (high PH water) to hydrolyze the amides to ergine/LAH..and allowing at least 6 hr for the ergine/isoergine to reach an equilibrium. But other info says adding an acid helps the process, and other information suggests alcohol (in the form of wine) is the best way. With only 20 seeds I am not sure I'd bother with using naptha...seems plenty of people find it not necessary anyway.

I wish I had the best info but I need to re-familiarize myself in this area...I am starting to feel like turbina corymbosa is calling me (I've never tried the 'real' morning glory) so maybe in a few months I'll be able to speak with authority in the matter.

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/Vespiary/talk/index.php/topic,1310.0.html

hi morninggloryseed, this is actually my first post on this forum so Im not fully confident on the protocol. Anyway, I would like to know what extraction method can be done with about 20 HBWRs (the rest of my package) and maybe some naptha. I have tripped 3 or 4 times before with them and they are pretty nice but the nausau is a little difficult especially when you only have a pinch of nug with you most of the time. Hopefully, I can get a good answer.

 

[pharmakos]

I am starting to feel like turbina corymbosa is calling me (I've never tried the 'real' morning glory) so maybe in a few months I'll be able to speak with authority in the matter.

ololiuqui is lovely unfortunately i can't find it anymore.

 

[Xorkoth]

bump for prune

 

[Benzo Bennie]

I know this an old thread but:

I really wanted to finish this post despite having used a pure water extra t method in the past, but most of it is about nausea. I can address this issue once and for all... "ADMINISTER WHATEVER EXTRACT - EVEN GROUND UP SEED PULP - YOU PERFER VIA YOUR A$$!" I'm serious. My first experience consisted of 250 seeds, a coffee grinder, and an enema bottle. Worked well and there was zero nausea. I don't recall even letting the seeds steep that long.

Anyhow, I just got my hands on some MG seeds for sh*ts and giggles and decided to give a diffent method of extraction a go. I'll likely first wash the seeds thoroughly, dry them, use a coffee grinder to produce a fine powder, soak them first in alcohol (grain ethyl) and strain. Secondly, I'll take the pulp and soak it in water for 5-6hrs before straining. I'll likely add both liguids together, drink half and give myself an enema with the other half. Best of both worlds down/in each end. Remember... When ingesting it orally, it has to be processed and bypass the liver; which will produce new compounds. I've also read that there is an oxidative effect cased by the liver in order to break down chemicals so the can be filtered by the kidneys and excreted through the urine. Whatever you put in your arse simply has to be absorbed through the lining of the walls of your intestines (thats where the alcohol comes in). It's a win win in my book. What do you think?

I've honestly never that of using grain alcohol and evaporating, but that seems interesting. The only problem is all alcohol except USP grade 99.9% will have water in it. So I guess the jury is still out on extraction methods.

I wonder if you could low temp vape it with the Brooklyn glycol and vegetable glycerin and you are a cigarette or vape mod juice? I'll need to check the molecular weight of LSA and it's solubility in PG/VG or PEG.

Swim (hope I used that word right) is in the process of making vapable benzos as we speak. Wish guy luck.

 

[Xorkoth]

Hey there. First things first, we don't use SWIM in here or otherwise refer to ourselves in third person as it doesn't actually help anyone and is annoying to read. Of course I realize in some forums they require it so no worries, just FYI. Next, you shouldn't give yourself an enema with alcohol, it will burn terribly, and it's simply not necessary, the rectal walls absorb drugs quite readily without alcohol. In general, rectal administration is more effective than oral, allowing for a greater bioavailability, and also bypassing the stomach which makes nausea much less likely.

As for vaping, you'd have to check the temperatures. Generally lysergamides such as LSAs are easily destroyed by heat so it may be that it's impossible, but of course if the vaporization temperature is enough below the temperature at which it is destroyed, a vape with a precise temperature control could accomplish it. I've never heard of anyone vaping lysergamides but it would be an interesting experiment.

 

[Benzo Bennie]

I've heard of people dabbing LSD... I assume it's just for fun, because I see no practicality in it. Why not just put it in your mouth? But I guess in the name of experimentation people do dumb stuff. Me for instance, I have a temperature controlled mod / device for vaping. I'm not real familiar with the device yet but I am experimenting. Most compounds are degraded or destroyed by heat, light and oxidation. So there are a few problems with choosing to vape a compound versus oral Administration. I guess what I'm trying to say is you're right, but as I just said... In the name of experimentation people do dumb stuff. Having said that, I'm about to vape my alprazolam.

 

[Benzo Bennie]

Ps: the discomfort I've ever gotten from any enema was inserting the enema or apparatus itself. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying I've never had issues with my back door.

 

[polymath]

You can also mix the ground up seeds with baking soda and chew them in your mouth for a while to get the lysergamides absorbed. The same trick as with coca leaves. If you have 300 seeds, you could divide it to 3 doses, each of which is chewed for 5-10 minutes.

 

[yessa]

You can also mix the ground up seeds with baking soda and chew them in your mouth for a while to get the lysergamides absorbed. The same trick as with coca leaves. If you have 300 seeds, you could divide it to 3 doses, each of which is chewed for 5-10 minutes.

Honestly, IMHO that doesn't make any sense with these seeds, as in contrast to coca, the ergolines are in a salt form in the seeds which is very water soluble. So adding any base is about the worst you can do to increase absorption.


IMHO is the reason why for some people the seeds do not work as intended, that they do not know the important key aspects to consider when using these seeds. Some probably still have the assumption it's the LSA in the seeds that delivers the typical psychedelic journey. But LSA itself is mainly a non visual sedativum and rather dysphoric (although stimulating and euphoric in very low doses).
But the vine seeds can be typical psychedelic, euphoric and visual, but it's likely other ergolines mainly responsible for this (IMHO likely mainly the LSH).
There are a few important key aspects to consider to get the vine seeds to work in a "typical psychedelic" way.


E.g. my advice:

• The seeds have to be the right ones: If HBWR seeds, then it has to be the "Hawaiian" or "Madagascar" variety (e.g. "Indian" or "African" don't work). If the common smaller vine seeds, then they should be Ipomoea Tricolor ("Heavenly Blue"). But as it seems quite some vendors/distributors in the US sell instead I. Hederacea as "Heavenly Blue". And generally (also in Europe) vendors/distributors often confound I. tricolor with I. purpurea, and so mislabel their seeds. The "Heavenly Blue" (I. tricolor) seeds should be asymmetrical pointy at one end and are always black. If they instead have a "C"-shape, don't use them, as they are not Ipomoea tricolor. If you feel like it ;-), you can also use Turbina Corymbosa seeds. Here a pic of the typical shaped "Heavenly Blue" seeds: https://www.weberseeds.de/gallery/ipomoea-tricolor-seeds.jpg
  
• The fresher the seeds, the better, as only then they contain mostly LSH (in relation to LSA). Actually unripe ones are even better! Ideal time is when the seed pod just lost its green, as then they have the best LSH/LSA ratio and being overall the most potent. They lose up to half their potency until they're ripe, as a study showed. Getting fresh seeds is often a big problem when using HBWR seeds, as for most people they do not grow locally. That's why I personally recommend these people to grow the proper Ipomoeas (no "C" shaped seeds) in their yard and then use the seeds freshly. You will be amazed how strong the difference in effects is between fresh or even unripe seeds and common store bought ones.
  
• If you do a CWE, pestle first into a fine mush (a conventional mortar doesn't work, take e.g. 2 concrete plates or a concrete floor and a plate, stand on it and wiggle/rotate), or grind/chop into a fine powder (e.g. with a coffee grinder or a high speed mixer in intervals, as not to heat them up too much), then only soak briefly, no long soaks. Then strain and immediately drink. No exposure to daylight during the whole preparation! No usage of chlorinated tap water (halogens like chlorine kill ergolines)!
  
• If you do a total alkaloid extraction (e.g. Kash's tek), then make sure your basifying step is as short in duration as possible and that you never go beyond PH 9 during this time.
  
• Take some L-Citrulline (2-5g) together with it, or 30Min in advance, as it is a good vasodilator. If you still experience too much vasoconstriction, then add some L-Arginine (needs around 20Mins to take effect).
  
• Enjoy
  
• Don't use these seeds if you could be pregnant!!! (LSH as well as ergometrine have quite a strong uterotonic action, which could lead to abortion/miscarriage)
  
  

Interestingly the traditional (Zapotec) usage, as reported by Wasson or Hofmann, fulfills these preparation aspects. IMHO no coincidence.


But some people rather like the effect of LSA itself, and it's mainly sedative non visual dreamy aspect, and don't want the typical psychedelic ride. They should basically make sure they get rather old seeds, or to let the water stand for quite some time (best to even add some slight base, like e.g. a bit of baking soda), to make sure all LSH has converted into LSA.
Also to mention is, that LSH seems to show a more pronounced bronchoconstriction effect than LSA. This is the tradeoff you have to deal with.

 

[G_Chem]

^^^Great info brother. Has anyone you know ever tried an A/B extraction (such as Kashs) on LSH/LSA?

My impression is that the LSH wouldn?t survive the process well.

You?ve got me ready to plant some morning glories when I get home though!

-GC

 

[yessa]

^^^Great info brother. Has anyone you know ever tried an A/B extraction (such as Kashs) on LSH/LSA?

My impression is that the LSH wouldn?t survive the process well.

To cite myself above:

If you do a total alkaloid extraction (e.g. Kash's tek), then make sure your basifying step is as short in duration as possible and that you never go beyond PH 9 during this time.

Groeger (who discovered the presence of LSH in these seeds) did an extraction very similar to Kash's tek already in 1963 and most of the LSH survived it, as LSH was still the dominant alkaloid after the extraction. But as mentioned, it is very important not to go higher than PH 9 and to do the alkaline step as fast as possible. In the newer works, many have done an extraction of it, basically all with with only slight variations of Groeger's tek, and all had seemingly only very little LSH being converted.

If interested, this is Groeger's tek:

* Ground the seeds to a fine powder
* Washed (defat) 5 times with Naphtha (Petroleum-ether)
* About 0.5g of the powder in 10ml (2g tartaric acid in 30ml water + 70ml acetone) shaken for 1 hour (repeated an additional 2 times, for 3 runs in total)
* Heated in water bath until acetone evaporated
* Washed several times with ether
* Made alkaline with ammonia PH 8-9
* extracted 3 times with DCM

LSH decomposes in neutral water solutions, and quickly in alkaline solutions, but it is quite stable in acidic environments. Traditionally (e.g. as reported from Wasson) they only soaked the mushed seeds briefly in water, then strained and immediately drank. IMHO is the decomposition of LSH in water one reason for this short soaking time of the traditional tek (another reason being that the glycosides are amphiphilic).

According to Hofmann's (later) opinion the effects stem mainly from LSA, LSH and ergometrine. And e.g. in fresher seeds there's mainly LSH (in relation to LSA). Only in old seeds, the LSA is dominant. This is because the fungi on the plant can only biosynthesize LSH (not LSA), and LSA is then a decomposition product of LSH over time. Ergometrine is the precursor/intermediate in the biosynthesis of LSH and is so always also present. But the amount of ergometrine can strongly vary (depending on its production rate and how quickly it gets further converted to LSH). But it is often not in amounts in the seeds to be considered a strong contributor of effects, especially as it is not as potent.

Regarding the effects the different contributors have on their own as pure substances (as derived from studies/experiments):

• LSA: Is mainly a sedativum and rather dysphoric (although stimulating and euphoric in very low doses), non visual (even in high doses), putting you in a dreamy, mentally kinda disconnected, self-reflective state. Severe bodily sideeffects on higher dosages (salivation, vomiting, giddiness, diarrhea).
• Ergometrine: Is visual in higher dosages, where also severe bodily side effects occur. Also headspace is typical "psychedelic" in these high dosages. Has been widely used in medicine in low doses due to its uterotonic effects (nowadays a chemical derivation of it gets used).
• LSH: Has never been officially tested by humans. Animal tests showed behavioral effects very similar to LSD. As the molecule is very similar to LAE-32, one might assume it is also visual and "psychedelic" similar to LSD (although less potent), but with a slight narcotic component (not as strong as LSA), as it is a weak adrenergic blocker.

 

[polymath]

Honestly, IMHO that doesn't make any sense with these seeds, as in contrast to coca, the ergolines are in a salt form in the seeds which is very water soluble. So adding any base is about the worst you can do to increase absorption.

I don't think any plant contains alkaloids in freebase form. The alkali is not meant to make the alkaloid water soluble, it's to make it pass through biological lipid bilayers faster. If you're absorbing something through your nose, then it's better to have the drug in salt form. In the mouth there's always enough saliva to dissolve the alkaloid even as free base unless it's something like mescaline with active dose in the 200+ mg range.

 

[yessa]

If you're absorbing something through your nose, then it's better to have the drug in salt form. In the mouth there's always enough saliva to dissolve the alkaloid even as free base unless it's something like mescaline with active dose in the 200+ mg range.

Thanks for pointing that out!

This is really interesting. It seems I always wrongly assumed a substance has to be in salt form for best sublingual absorption.

For anyone interested found this interesting piece of more detailed explanation about sublingual absorption. Seems IMHO like the most complex ROA regarding optimal preparation for absorption.

Short (really) quote (highlighted by me):

Lipids present in the oral mucous membrane offer the main barrier to the permeability of hydrophilic drugs. On the other hand, well-hydrated connective tissues provide resistance to lipophilic drugs. Thus, the potential transport path across the oral mucous membrane may be either polar or non-polar. Non-polar molecules cross through the lipid regions of the epithelium, while polar molecules travel through ionic channels present in the intercellular spaces of the epithelium, or aqueous pores present in the epithelial cells. For this reason, an understanding of a drug’s lipophilic or hydrophilic nature during the developmental stage of the drug product appears to be the most useful index for evaluating its suitability for absorption across the oral mucosa.

[..]

For efficient absorption through the oral mucosa, the drug must be hydrophobic enough to partition into the lipid bilayer, but not so hydrophobic such that once it is in the bilayer, it will not partition out again. Satisfactory oral absorption of drugs has been observed over a wide range of log P (octanol/water partition coefficient) values of 1 to 5. As the log P value increases beyond 5, the solubility in saliva is usually not enough to provide adequate concentration for diffusion through the lipid bilayer (39). According to the diffusive model of absorption, the flux across the lipid bilayer is directly proportional to the concentration gradient. Therefore, lower solubility in saliva results in lower absorption rates and vice versa. In general, a drug formulated for sublingual or buccal administration should have a molecular weight of less than 500 (as free base) to facilitate its diffusion (39).


Because drugs diffuse through the lipid bilayer in the unionized form, based on the pH-partition theory, the pKa of drugs also plays a crucial role in drug transport across the oral mucous membrane. It is important to note that the oral cavity, unlike the gastrointestinal tract, has a narrow range of pH, usually from 5.6 to 7.6. Thus, a basic drug administered as a salt, predominantly exists as a free unionized base if the pH is raised above its pKa value and this increase in the unionized fraction of a drug increases its bioavailability (40). For this reason, the inclusion of a suitable buffer in the formulation of an ionizable drug makes it possible to control the pH of aqueous saliva in a range most appropriate for the optimal absorption of such drugs. Drugs that do not contain ionizable groups are not affected by changes in pH.

Again thanks. I'm always eager to learn new things.

So LSH would have a logP of around 1-1.7 (calculated) and a pKa of about 7.8. So as you said, adding some baking soda should indeed increase bio-availability if I got that correctly.

There's only one slight problem I see: LSH doesn't like alkaline environments, and starts to decompose in these. But if absorption is fast enough, probably not much of it decomposed yet. Probably best would be a buffer which stays at PH 8.

 

[polymath]

You're welcome. I have dosed morning glory seeds this way myself, 2 times if I remember correctly and it took about 300 seeds and 20 minutes of chewing them with bicarbonate to feel significant effects. It's quite a large amount, and it tastes a bit unpleasant, but at least there will not be the nausea that lasts for hours and ruins the while trip.

 

[polymath]

I had a small morning glory plant that I grew myself under a LED lamp, and about 30 minutes ago I tried cutting and shredding the leaves and stems of the plant, and chewing them with sodium bicarbonate as I above described doing with the seeds. I'm actually feeling exactly the same effects (changes in vision and headspace) that I would get from the seeds, but with some more nervousness/cold sweat.

Some Polish artice described the alkaloid content of the green parts of the ipomoea plant to be about 1/10 of that in the seeds, but to me it seems from the effects that there is more than that. I don't think the gram amount of leaves/stems I chewed was even 3 times the usual seed dose. Or it may just be that the seeds you can order aren't fresh like a plant cultivated by yourself.

Edit: I hope this doesn't contain any more ergotamine and other vasoconstrictors than the seeds of the plant... The feeling of dizziness and intoxication is definitely enought to make me hesitate going outdoors before this clears up...

 

[Pfafffed]

Yep, after some experimentation with fresh, green morning glory seeds, I don't think I'll mess with EXTRACTION, cold water extraction, or particularly HBWR ever again. The green seeds are just so easy. The real test will be if they retain their potency after being frozen

 

[polymath]

If someone were to actually extract the alkaloids with some solvents and acid/alkali, they could just as well extract from the leaves and stems too, because the mass of those in a plant is clearly larger than the mass of the seeds and they contain same alkaloids.