Opioids Kratom Mega Thread v. 5

[Slow_Mobius]

I guess I've finally reached the point where kratom pretty much does nothing. Not much pain relief, no euphoria. I'm not experiencing much WD symptoms at all when I stop either. I know it's not the kratom I'm using becuase it was working wonderfully a few weeks ago, and I had actually started using it after taking a few days off. However, I can sometimes get mild euphoria and good pain relief with my last dose of the day. Do you guys think dosing all at once would take care of the problem? I was dosing about 2.2 grams about 3 times a day and that worked great until one day it just completely stopped working. Lately I've upped it to 3 grams but haven't seen much improvement in effect--a little more jittery but that's about it.

Also, has anyone noticed any negative effects from taking kratom with duloxetine (Cymbalta)? I'm switching from lyrica to cymbalta for pain/sleep. Antidepressants haven't helped much in the past, so I'm not too hopeful. Thanks

 

[scarlet_tunic]

I guess I've finally reached the point where kratom pretty much does nothing. Not much pain relief, no euphoria. I'm not experiencing much WD symptoms at all when I stop either. I know it's not the kratom I'm using becuase it was working wonderfully a few weeks ago, and I had actually started using it after taking a few days off. However, I can sometimes get mild euphoria and good pain relief with my last dose of the day. Do you guys think dosing all at once would take care of the problem? I was dosing about 2.2 grams about 3 times a day and that worked great until one day it just completely stopped working. Lately I've upped it to 3 grams but haven't seen much improvement in effect--a little more jittery but that's about it.

Also, has anyone noticed any negative effects from taking kratom with duloxetine (Cymbalta)? I'm switching from lyrica to cymbalta for pain/sleep. Antidepressants haven't helped much in the past, so I'm not too hopeful. Thanks

Interesting... I don't know.. I take about 8 - 10 grams in the evenings without doing any during the day. I didn't know dosing at 2 - 3 grams would even produce an effect or euphoria. Maybe the stimulant effect? I'd say if you want to get high on it, try doing the doses all in the evening, unless you need it to get through the day. I've had instances where I didn't get any withdrawal effects. I find the best way to deal with withdrawal effects is to try not to focus on them too much and the absolute worse thing you can do (and what I did) is beat yourself up over the withdrawal effects and make yourself feel guilty that you have gotten to that point.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Interesting... I don't know.. I take about 8 - 10 grams in the evenings without doing any during the day. I didn't know dosing at 2 - 3 grams would even produce an effect or euphoria. Maybe the stimulant effect? I'd say if you want to get high on it, try doing the doses all in the evening, unless you need it to get through the day. I've had instances where I didn't get any withdrawal effects. I find the best way to deal with withdrawal effects is to try not to focus on them too much and the absolute worse thing you can do (and what I did) is beat yourself up over the withdrawal effects and make yourself feel guilty that you have gotten to that point.

I don't normally feel like I need it until the afternoon. I usually don't have much pain in the mornings and coffee works great. Also, I've needed much higher doses with the stuff I've gotten from some different vendors, so I think the kratom I have is pretty potent. I've also only dabbled with opioids. Not enough to work up physical dependence except for tramadol, but I was taking less than prescribed (WD felt 20 times worse than any kratom WD and tolerance built after only a couple days). I'm sure I would need higher doses of I had built up tolerance from extracts/stronger opioids or if i was buying less potent kratom.

I've read your other posts. good luck with cutting back! Pregabalin can be magical for helping with sleep during WD. And no need to beat yourself up about anything! I think A lot of people need something to relax at the end of their days. I bet kratom is healthier than overeating, drinking, smoking, etc.

 

[Ziiirp]

[...]

I've read your other posts. good luck with cutting back! Pregabalin can be magical for helping with sleep during WD. And no need to beat yourself up about anything! I think A lot of people need something to relax at the end of their days. I bet kratom is healthier than overeating, drinking, smoking, etc.

Depends on the dose (me is smartass ). There is an individual upper limit for the amount of powdered leaf a stomach can handle. But at reasonable doses (and if the leaf is untreated) the risk of damaging the body is certainly lower than when indulging in any of the aforementioned activities.

 

[CosmicG]

I had been buying kratom from a headshop nearby until recently discovering the quality vendors online, and I am starting to get kind of worried about my use. I've been doing about two tbl spns per day one in the morning and one at night. How long does it take to build worrisome withdrawals from experience?

 

[Mycophile]

For any of the users like me who don't use Kratom EVERY day but try to use it sporadically, lets say, 3-4 days a week, do you ever find that you might get withdrawal FOUR days after your last dose??!!!

Like, last week and the week before, I had dosed 2 days in a row, Thursday and Friday pretty heavily, then I didn't dose at all Saturday, Sunday or Monday.

I had some pretty strong withdrawal on Saturday where I slept all day and woke up and took Phenibut which of course made me sleep even more on Sunday.

Then on Monday I felt totally fine like the withdrawal was over, but Tuesday, FOUR days after my last dose, I was feeling really shitty and ended up having to dose to feel better.

Does that make any sense to anyone???

Could I have been feeling shitty for a different reason (there are possible other reasons I don't feel like listing) or is it possible that a person could actually go through withdrawal FOUR days after their last dose, even despite having had 3 days in a row with NO usage before that???

Wouldn't it be totally out of your system by that point??

 

[kleinerkiffer]

^if we trust this

Kratom contains over a dozen psychoactive alkaloids, all with different half-lives.

In terms of opioid receptors, there are number of indole compounds that are active. 7-hydroxymitragynine is the most MOR specific alkaloid, followed by mitragynine and 9-hydroxycorynantheidine, which can be thought of as 9-demethylmitragynine (a partial agonist, which seems to have a longer half-live than both 7-HO and mitragynine). 7-ethanoylmitragynine, an opioid of unknown potency (at least to me) is also found in small amounts, whose half-life is probably similar to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Mitraphyline is another small component and is thought to be an NMDA-antagonist/weak opioid.

Corynantheidine itself (another component of kratom, not the 7-hydroxy) is actually a weak-opioid antagonist, and seems to have a longer half-life than the opioid agonists (at least from my experience). Corynantheidine is also found in both P. yohimbine and R. serpentina. I have no idea what the half-life is for Corynantheidine.

Paynatheine (sp?) is another major component of Kratom (second to mitragynine by % weight), which, from what i remember was a dehydro version of mitragynine (at position 20 i believe). It (like a similar compound, Speciogynine) is apparently a calcium channel blocker/muscle relaxant with little or no opioid activity.

To complicate this further, all these compounds (and more) have various metabolites of unknown potency, half-life's, etc....

So essentially your answer is hard to answer. My guess is nothing in kratom has a half-life longer than 8-10 hours, but I could be very wrong. Yes i've read alot about kratom, but I still know very little...

The opioid action seems to be relatively short lasting (up to 4-5 hours, qualitatively), but the anti-adrenergic properties are longer lasting (up to 8-10 hours).

And this

From research, we know that the standard half life of mitragynine is 3.85 ± ~1 hr, depending upon the individuals natural levels of enzymes and other factors. This means that on average 3.85 hours from the moment of absorption, half of the alkaloid is still in one’s body.

While the research has varied, it seems to point to an average half life of 2.5 ± .7 hours. The shorter half-life of this alkaloid describes why some of those who suffer from pain prefer smaller doses more frequently throughout the day, to maintain a constant level of 7-hyroxymitragynine.

ensobotanicals.com/kratom-half-life-and-duration/

Then yes, it would be completely out of your system after 4 days.

 

[sekio]

Opioid withdrawal is usually very predictable once you recognize the symptoms, and can do a little bit of mental math with regards to 1) the dose and 2) the duration of the opioids you were taking before going into w/d.

Most importantly, it's usually fairly reliably reproducible, so if you find that (for example) kratom withdrawal is usually most intense on the first half of the first day after stopping usage, it would be highly unusual for it to suddenly be delayed by 4 days. Also, there should be physical symptoms like runny noses/excessive tears from the eye, muscle cramps, and so on for a confirmation. That is to say, usually opioid withdrawal involves more than just "feeling crappy".

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Psychological addiction can be worse than physical addiction/WD symptoms. If you're dosing multiple times a week, you could be developing a psychological dependence on the boost kratom gives you. I wouldn't underestimate the power of your own mind (cliche, I know)

 

[Mycophile]

Psychological addiction can be worse than physical addiction/WD symptoms. If you're dosing multiple times a week, you could be developing a psychological dependence on the boost kratom gives you. I wouldn't underestimate the power of your own mind (cliche, I know)

Right I know.

But they are saying I probably wouldn't have actually been going through "proper" withdrawal, while you are saying I could have been going through MENTAL withdrawal, which yes, makes sense.

 

[Mycophile]

Opioid withdrawal is usually very predictable once you recognize the symptoms, and can do a little bit of mental math with regards to 1) the dose and 2) the duration of the opioids you were taking before going into w/d.

Most importantly, it's usually fairly reliably reproducible, so if you find that (for example) kratom withdrawal is usually most intense on the first half of the first day after stopping usage, it would be highly unusual for it to suddenly be delayed by 4 days. Also, there should be physical symptoms like runny noses/excessive tears from the eye, muscle cramps, and so on for a confirmation. That is to say, usually opioid withdrawal involves more than just "feeling crappy".

Most often Kratom doesn't give me the muscle cramps and all of that but I'll feel excessively fatigued as my biggest symptom, and that's how i was feeling on that day.

However, I think it could have been because it totally screwed up my sleep schedule over that weekend because I had been up a few nights on it and that day was the first day I was attempting to return to regularity in terms of my sleep/waking cycle so my body probably felt all out of wack cause of I was FINALLY awake at a time I should have been but had been sleeping during the day for a few days before that.

So I think that could have been part of the reason.

 

[Mycophile]

^if we trust this

And this ensobotanicals.com/kratom-half-life-and-duration/

Then yes, it would be completely out of your system after 4 days.

So the half life is approximately 10 hours max??

And isn't the rule that something is out of your system by 5 times the half life??

So it would be out of my system by about 50 hours rights??

 

[kleinerkiffer]

So the half life is approximately 10 hours max??

And isn't the rule that something is out of your system by 5 times the half life??

So it would be out of my system by about 50 hours rights??

Yes, but the two alkaloids most likely are not the only active ones, so there could probably be an active alkaloid with a half life of a few days (highly unlikely, but possible)

Yeah, 5 half lifes could be enough, but I like to be safe and use 7 half lifes

Yep

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Maybe it's adrenal fatigue?

 

[scarlet_tunic]

I don't normally feel like I need it until the afternoon. I usually don't have much pain in the mornings and coffee works great. Also, I've needed much higher doses with the stuff I've gotten from some different vendors, so I think the kratom I have is pretty potent. I've also only dabbled with opioids. Not enough to work up physical dependence except for tramadol, but I was taking less than prescribed (WD felt 20 times worse than any kratom WD and tolerance built after only a couple days). I'm sure I would need higher doses of I had built up tolerance from extracts/stronger opioids or if i was buying less potent kratom.

I've read your other posts. good luck with cutting back! Pregabalin can be magical for helping with sleep during WD. And no need to beat yourself up about anything! I think A lot of people need something to relax at the end of their days. I bet kratom is healthier than overeating, drinking, smoking, etc.

Hi Slow Mobius,

Thanks, that's nice of you to say I took a day off Wednesday, and I just drank a pot of chamomile tea with 3 teabags in it. It put me right out. However, I kind of let myself down because I did it more than I had planned to this week. Tonight we were having drinks, and after my first drink of course I decide to stop drinking and... go straight for the krat. So I let myself down a bit this week, but I still took 3 days off I didn't want to drink because I need to get up for work tomorrow at 9 am, but I still want to have fun... so with kratom I don't have a hangover and I have much better sleep than with drinking. But I still get a little 'boost'... different feeling from alcohol but definitely makes me more social and gives a mood boost.

Do you think so? I have thought about it. I used to eat more at night, carbs, and I think that maybe it provided a similar feeling to the kratom -- relaxation. I smoke as well but I smoke maybe a pack a week, if that. I'm not as drawn to cigarettes. I drink coffee during the day, too, when I have to go to work or go about my business. I never even want kratom during the day,

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Most often Kratom doesn't give me the muscle cramps and all of that but I'll feel excessively fatigued as my biggest symptom, and that's how i was feeling on that day.

However, I think it could have been because it totally screwed up my sleep schedule over that weekend because I had been up a few nights on it and that day was the first day I was attempting to return to regularity in terms of my sleep/waking cycle so my body probably felt all out of wack cause of I was FINALLY awake at a time I should have been but had been sleeping during the day for a few days before that.

So I think that could have been part of the reason.

I don't get much (if any) of the runny nose or watery eyes but I get hit heavy with the chills, body sweats and insomnia. Even using my go to weed and anti-histamines I'm lucky to get 3 hours. Pregabalin, temazepam and weed is the only thing will give me a full night sleep. Try taking a small dose to counter the fatigue, even 1/8 of my normal dose will get me moving although by evening I'll be in w/d again but it's worth it to me to get through work.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Hi Slow Mobius,

Thanks, that's nice of you to say I took a day off Wednesday, and I just drank a pot of chamomile tea with 3 teabags in it. It put me right out. However, I kind of let myself down because I did it more than I had planned to this week. Tonight we were having drinks, and after my first drink of course I decide to stop drinking and... go straight for the krat. So I let myself down a bit this week, but I still took 3 days off I didn't want to drink because I need to get up for work tomorrow at 9 am, but I still want to have fun... so with kratom I don't have a hangover and I have much better sleep than with drinking. But I still get a little 'boost'... different feeling from alcohol but definitely makes me more social and gives a mood boost.

Do you think so? I have thought about it. I used to eat more at night, carbs, and I think that maybe it provided a similar feeling to the kratom -- relaxation. I smoke as well but I smoke maybe a pack a week, if that. I'm not as drawn to cigarettes. I drink coffee during the day, too, when I have to go to work or go about my business. I never even want kratom during the day,

As with anything, we all know moderation is key... it's just usually more fun to shirk moderation I have a couple family members that have drug probs, but the worst had an alcohol addiction and an overeating problem. Her depression fueled the overeating/alcohol use and the result of the overeating fueled the depression. On top of that she had scripts for amphetamines, opiates, and benzos... now that I think about it I'm surprised she functioned as well as she did!

Anyways, I feel like with most drugs its about assessing your benefit vs physical, monetary, and mental cost. I personally use kratom because it helps with pain issues that I would otherwise have take more addictive drugs for. I would just use cannabis, but I can't fail drug tests or get a possession charge.

If the idea of having a drug dependency is negatively affecting you mentally, that might be a good reason to cut back. If I understand correctly, that's the main reason youre concerned about your use? Or is it starting to negatively impact your life in other ways? I also drink coffee during the day for work/school and kratom at night, but lately I've been using more kratom in the day and less coffee in general.

Psychedelic trips can be great for introspective assessment, but so can friends and family. I'll stick to psychadelics though

 

[scarlet_tunic]

I have been taking Kratom for close to two months now, I found that 4 teaspoons is my sweet spot, if I take anymore I get sick, any less I don't feel it too much.
I plan on taking less soon to taper off. I think it's different for everyone you just need to find your sweet spot.

That's mine... 4 teaspoons... I've done more than that but I can't get anymore high doing more than that.
I noticed another post where you mentioned you do it every 5 hrs... so you take 4 teaspoons several times a day?

 

[scarlet_tunic]

As with anything, we all know moderation is key... it's just usually more fun to shirk moderation I have a couple family members that have drug probs, but the worst had an alcohol addiction and an overeating problem. Her depression fueled the overeating/alcohol use and the result of the overeating fueled the depression. On top of that she had scripts for amphetamines, opiates, and benzos... now that I think about it I'm surprised she functioned as well as she did!

Anyways, I feel like with most drugs its about assessing your benefit vs physical, monetary, and mental cost. I personally use kratom because it helps with pain issues that I would otherwise have take more addictive drugs for. I would just use cannabis, but I can't fail drug tests or get a possession charge.

If the idea of having a drug dependency is negatively affecting you mentally, that might be a good reason to cut back. If I understand correctly, that's the main reason youre concerned about your use? Or is it starting to negatively impact your life in other ways? I also drink coffee during the day for work/school and kratom at night, but lately I've been using more kratom in the day and less coffee in general.

Psychedelic trips can be great for introspective assessment, but so can friends and family. I'll stick to psychadelics though

Hi Mobius,

Well, recently I've been doing kratom for 2 - 3 days and then taking a day off. However, I am doing a 4th straight day today and probably taking tomorrow off. There is usually a point where I get to where I don't get much out of kratom ... and then I know I need to take a break. I know I am dependent on it; but most of the time it's just something I want to do in the evening when I have time to relax. I enjoy being online and doing writing or working on art with the kratom. Not that I need it but it gives it an extra relaxation. It kind of also feels like something to sip on where beer is full of calories / sugar.

That is too bad about your family member Overeating really sucks and food can be one of the worst addictions.. because it takes a lot of physical toll on the body. Coupled with alcohol that can lead to some serious obesity. Part of the reason I do kratom is it helps me stay away from drinking too much. Usually after 2 - 3 beers / drinks I tend to want to go to the kratom. TBH I know about the shirking moderation HAHA; moderation sucksss!!!

 

[Nhnsen]

Part of the reason I do kratom is it helps me stay away from drinking too much. Usually after 2 - 3 beers / drinks I tend to want to go to the kratom.

Using kratom is what helped me stop drinking years ago. I need something at the end of the day, but alcohol always seems to get out of hand (for me). I used to drink every day but when I started using kratom I had no desire to drink; I totally lost interest!
Nowadays I might have a beer occasionally, but I never mix the two; mixing seems to give me vertigo. I actually avoid alcohol because it gets on the way of my Kratom use!