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Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Different Brands

The only difference is the benzethonium chloride in Ketalar, which can be psychoactive I think, but not sure how. Perhaps it modulates the experience. Otherwise it should not be different. Beyond this, I really don't feel like repeating a 'dirty acid thread'.
If I ever felt different effects from different ketamine brands it fell well into the domain of suggestibility, if additives were not involved.

edit: it is a muscarinic antagonist that is stronger at that than ketamine.. although I think that contradicts what you say about the ketaset vs ketalar but whatever :p ;) .
 
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I agree too that if it says merely "ketamine" it is racemic, which is ALWAYS 50/50, and any different effects by brand of racemic ket are all in your head...IMHO.

If da label don't say "S", it ain't.
 
In my experience S-ketamine will always be labeled as such.
 
I agree too that if it says merely "ketamine" it is racemic, which is ALWAYS 50/50, and any different effects by brand of racemic ket are all in your head...IMHO.

If da label don't say "S", it ain't.

Nutz I believed the same thing until recently, I spoke to someone in a position of authority in the medical establishment (on a different continent) who told me that racemic Ketamine is these days on the whole not 50/50. According to him since 2008 certainly in Western developed countries drug companies have been encouraged to increase and put emphasis on the amount of S+ in racemic so it's more like 70/30 S/R since the powers that be wanted to reduce the amount of withdrawal phenomena (that are actually desirable for a psychonaut) associated with R-Ketamine when used as an anaesthetic in a medical setting, I was also told that pure S brands are something of a sales thing in the medical world "ensuring the absence of R-isomers effects" rather than just reduced R-isomer racemic (or what by definition is no longer racemate but just Ketamine higher in S).

This makes entire sense to me since according to several experienced people over a decade ago there was far more presence of R-isomer in racemic and one needed to use a higher volume than today, the stuff today is more potent for sure and exhibiting S characteristics. It also explains why racemic from many 3rd world and developing countries being still the original 50/50 (so cheaper to manufacture) is like the old Ketamine Europe used to know that came from India before that got halted.

It's also not true that R-Ketamine alone is useless in a medical setting and it will definitely put you under, you just need more of it.

I'll try to back this with some actual sources I can share of course.
 
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Yes S-isomer ketamine is more efficient in depression treatment.

I can only say that some studies will come out soon regarding this.
 
Actually this is not correct R-Isomer is, as it is clearly less psychomimetic and more relaxing, some psychiatrists at US ketamine clinics are also aware of this.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._-ketamine/links/5653168608ae1ef92975af1c.pdf

My source says:

EPA-1659 – Repeated S-ketamine infusions in treatment-resistant depression (European Psychiatry 2014, Vol.29, pp.1-1)

Background: Ketamine, an N-methyl-D-aspartate antagonist, rapidly improves depressive symptoms in individuals with treatmentresistant depression. However, most trials using ketamine were limited to single administration and were performed with the racemic mixture of ketamine. The aim of this case series was to investigate the clinical efficacy of multiple intravenous administrations of S-ketamine in the acute treatment of treatment-resistant depression. MethodsIn 6 patients suffering from Major Depression (DSM-IV criteria) and being pharmacoresistant to at least 2 antidepressants, intravenous Ketamine treatment was started with a 40 minute administration of 0.25mg S-ketamine/kg body weight i.v. The treatment was performed over 3 weeks using 2 infusions per week. Patients were kept on their current pharmacotherapy regimen (including antidepressants). The patients were rated using the 21-item version of the Hamilton rating scale for depression (HAMD-21) before and 120 minutes after each ketamine infusion. ResultsIn 5 of 6 patients a strong improvement of depressive symptoms occurred already after the first ketamine infusion. The response could be stabilized by the following infusions. In 2 patients dissociative symptoms could be seen. Conclusions Multiple administrations of ketamine appear to be well tolerated, although negative effects on cognition have been described after longer use. The occurrence of dissociative symptoms in two patients in our study must be viewed as an unpleasant side effect. In the literature there is some evidence, that S-ketamine has better tolerability than racemic ketamine but similar antidepressant effects.

And I have a few more if I find them.

S-ketamine for the treatment of depression (Psychiatria Fennica 2015 Vol. 46 pp 11-20)

Ketamine infusion has been reported to rapidly relieve depressive symptoms and
suicidal ideation in patients with treatment-resistant depression (TRD). It has also
been tested in electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) anaesthesia and has been suggested to
enhance the response to ECT. S-ketamine is less studied than a racemic mixture or
R-enantiomer in these patients. S-ketamine is more potent as an anaesthetic and might
thus also have a better antidepressive effect.
In this article we present recent
data concerning the antidepressive and adverse effects of S-ketamine compared with
racemic and R-ketamine in major depressive disorder (MDD), especially in TRD. Based on
recent literature, it is obvious that S-ketamine also possesses antidepressive
properties. In ECT anaesthesia, S-ketamine might enhance the antidepressive effect of
this treatment. S-ketamine may also be preferable when compared with other anaesthetics
regarding adverse cognitive effects. Its adverse psychotomimetic effects may be
avoidable when used in anaesthetic doses. Although the data on S-ketamine at the
moment is only based on case reports and expert opinions rather than adequate
prospective randomized studies, it still may offer an important option when treating
severe and resistant depression


This is linked to electroconvulsive therapy.
 
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xammy did you read the study I linked? It directly compares R and S and Racemic

Your first study is S and Racemic, the 2nd is a study of S not a comparison.
 
I did read the abstract, did you read those studies I posted? They suggest that S-ketamine might be more efficient in treatment-resistant depression when used in anaesthetic doses. It means that they use high doses in electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) to anesthetize the patient (rodent in this case..?) (S-ketamine for the treatment of depression article)
 
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I did read the abstract, did you read those studies I posted? They suggest that S-ketamine might be more efficient in treatment-resistant depression when used in anaesthetic doses. It means that they use high doses in electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) to anesthetize the patient (rodent in this case..?) (S-ketamine for the treatment of depression article)

I have already read and knew about those sources before you posted they are hypothesising not making conclusions, please read the one I sent you, since the sources you post do not hold your argument.

For those who are in the know and are in psychiatry it is R not S that is desired for psychological illnesses including OCD. S can in fact be negative for depression, since R is absent of psychomimetic/psychotic side effects which S clearly catalyses. You are wrong about the S and should not confuse people.

An experienced psychiatrist at a Ketamine clinic will tell you the same, again I will have to find the source since I saw an example online of a doctor at a Ketamine clinic saying the same thing as the study I linked.
 
Like I said before, there are on-going studies about this so I don't even know anything yet. S can indeed be negative for depression but it can be even better than R. I know the general consensus at the moment. We don't need to "fight" for this :)
 
Like I said before, there are on-going studies about this so I don't even know anything yet. S can indeed be negative for depression but it can be even better than R. I know the general consensus at the moment. We don't need to "fight" for this :)

xammy you are wrong and should not disseminate information you have no idea about especially since people with depression will likely read this, I have read and already knew the studies you linked before you posted them, actually read the study I linked to you. It is a direct comparison of S, R and Racemic in depression and it is not the only study, here is another one. please read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26327690

To be clear for Depressive disorders and OCD, it is R ketamine that is desirable.
 
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It was a legit question for you, I haven't been able to find it...
 
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