Ketamine Bladder/Ketamine Cystitis - Any sufferers out there?

[stringybell]

After a few months of symptoms I am convinced I'm suffering from a well documented condition commonly known as k bladder. Also known as Ketamine-Associated Interstitial Cystitis. The symptoms are very similar to interstitial cystitis, a painful chronic condition.

My symptoms are on the mild end of the scale, but the fact that they're potentially chronic is cause for a lot of concern on my part.

I've dug around a lot and am unable to find any resources where people have shared their experience with this condition. I'm keen to hear people's stories. In particular I'd love to hear from people who have suffered only minor symptoms like myself, but I welcome anyone who's suffered a lot from the condition.

There is worryingly little information out there about this condition, especially considering how little ketamine you need to take to be at risk.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

What are your symptoms and how much k did u use?

I get some sharp pains in my bladder after dck or 3meopcp. Typically it starts if I use for more than 1 day in a row.

The pain leaves after I cease disso use. But I am worried I'm doing permanent damage.

I never experienced this with ketamine even with a recent bag of k.

 

[stringybell]

I used 0.3 - 0.5 grams on weekends - occasionally both nights, for a few months. Culminated in back to back music festivals where I used perhaps 2 grams in 2 weeks.

I am suffering what seem like mild cystitis symptoms - light pain and discomfort in the bladder and genitals which is more pronounced when I sit or lie down. I don't seem to be experiencing any diminished bladder capacity or increased urinary frequency.

These symptoms flared for a couple of months, died down completely and then resurfaced after a period where I was partying a lot and using a lot of other drugs (never K, ever again).

Now I'm taking it easy for a few months in the hope that if I give my bladder time to heal properly the symptoms might be resolved. But I am not too hopeful of this.

 

[Vastness]

Sorry to hear your symptoms have not yet resolved. I do think that by the sounds of it though, as you are "only" experiencing pain or mild discomfort (easy for me to say I know), and not any arguably more serious symptoms like reduced bladder volume, that it is highly likely your symptoms will still resolve with time...

I had a quick read through your older thread and I see you did visit a urologist, who said to come back if the symptoms didn't improve - did you go back there?

Also, how is your health generally, are you eating well, exercising, all that sort of thing? Again it might seem obvious so my apologies if it is to you, but it unfortunately isn't obvious to everyone that this sort of thing is important.

I have seen at least one report, on Bluelight, I believe, of someone with Ketamine-induced bladder symptoms which by the sounds of it were worse than yours, which, if I remember correctly, completely resolved after taking "Kambo" or "Sapo", ie, the venom of a species of frog. I have no idea if this has ever been replicated or if there is even any scientific basis to believe that this would work but this venom does seem to have been used for healing purposes in some cultures and there are various anecdotal reports of it being helpful for various conditions... so perhaps it is worth a try if you can get some of this venom somehow.

 

[stringybell]

Sorry to hear your symptoms have not yet resolved. I do think that by the sounds of it though, as you are "only" experiencing pain or mild discomfort (easy for me to say I know), and not any arguably more serious symptoms like reduced bladder volume, that it is highly likely your symptoms will still resolve with time...

I had a quick read through your older thread and I see you did visit a urologist, who said to come back if the symptoms didn't improve - did you go back there?

Also, how is your health generally, are you eating well, exercising, all that sort of thing? Again it might seem obvious so my apologies if it is to you, but it unfortunately isn't obvious to everyone that this sort of thing is important.

I have seen at least one report, on Bluelight, I believe, of someone with Ketamine-induced bladder symptoms which by the sounds of it were worse than yours, which, if I remember correctly, completely resolved after taking "Kambo" or "Sapo", ie, the venom of a species of frog. I have no idea if this has ever been replicated or if there is even any scientific basis to believe that this would work but this venom does seem to have been used for healing purposes in some cultures and there are various anecdotal reports of it being helpful for various conditions... so perhaps it is worth a try if you can get some of this venom somehow.

Thanks for the reply.

I still live in hope that the symptoms might resolve, though I am wary of getting my expectations up too high. From what I've read of the scientific lit it seems that my symptoms are congruous with a (mild) case of interstitial cystitis, which is considered to be a chronic condition.

I am quite baffled by the seeming lack of other similar stories on these forums and around the web generally. It seems to be a very common problem in the UK yet there are very few first hand accounts on the web. There are even fewer (none?) accounts of people with milder symptoms like mine. I am particularly eager to hear whether these symptoms generally do resolve over time.

It was actually the GP that told me to return if symptoms haven't resolved and I am yet to do so - I've been traveling a lot so it's been difficult. I plan on visiting one next week however and hope to get referred to a urologist with experience in this matter.

My health is mostly very good - I eat well, exercise and drink plenty of water. I say "mostly" because I do tend to go on benders quite frequently. Subsequent to suffering these symptoms I ceased using ketamine but continued using MDMA, cocaine, speed and alcohol fairly regularly. I am now taking a few months off from the drugs and trying to cut down on my drinking.

I imagine that if my symptoms stick around I'll look into options like Sapo. Thanks for the tip.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Wow that's not much use at all to get symptoms...my symptoms seem to resolve when I take long breaks. But then when I use they return

What other drugs aggravated your syntooms after u ceased k? MDMA and speed? Those shouldn't be causing problems.

I need to quit...told my wife to hid my dck...but I think I will have her throw it away as this is not something to fuck around with.

My symptoms are exactly like yours. Krstom seems to also make it worse...other drugs not at all though.

 

[stringybell]

Wow that's not much use at all to get symptoms...my symptoms seem to resolve when I take long breaks. But then when I use they return

I was very shocked and alarmed to suffer these symptoms after what I considered to be moderate use. I was aware of the dangers of excessive consumption but thought I was within a generally accepted "safe" limit. I now know this not to be the case and part of the reason I'm posting here is as a warning to others. I assume I am one of the unlucky few who are particularly prone, but you never know what your threshold is. I'd recommend sticking to occasional use only.

What other drugs aggravated your syntooms after u ceased k? MDMA and speed? Those shouldn't be causing problems.

I don't believe that MDMA and speed necessarily aggravated the symptoms, just that the period of 6 weeks where I was going on benders two or three times a week might have run me down and made the condition worse.

How long exactly are your long breaks? And do you find the symptoms have resolved entirely? I'd also be interested to know when the pain is most pronounced for you? I find it only really bothers me at night - I can feel it more intensely when I lie down and it has affected my sleeping when it's bad.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Mine breaks would be 3-7 months long. The last several times I got a bag of pcp or dck i would use just a very weekends in a row and then have symptoms and throw the rest of the bag out. i did get a bag of K recnently and didn't have problems with that and finished the whole bag. But my breaks are typically quite long between use as you can see.

My pain is worst the day after use, it doesn't seem to fluctuate based on time of day.

The symptoms totally resolve once I stopped after about a week or two, but to be perfectly honest something has never felt the same since this started happing to me, in terms of feeling that I need to urinate more often, but I can't be sure. This time seems to be the worst I have experienced. I just threw out my dck about 5 minutes ago, flushed it.

 

[stringybell]

Mine breaks would be 3-7 months long. The last several times I got a bag of pcp or dck i would use just a very weekends in a row and then have symptoms and throw the rest of the bag out. i did get a bag of K recnently and didn't have problems with that and finished the whole bag. But my breaks are typically quite long between use as you can see.

My pain is worst the day after use, it doesn't seem to fluctuate based on time of day.

The symptoms totally resolve once I stopped after about a week or two, but to be perfectly honest something has never felt the same since this started happing to me, in terms of feeling that I need to urinate more often, but I can't be sure. This time seems to be the worst I have experienced. I just threw out my dck about 5 minutes ago, flushed it.

After what I've gone through in the last 4 or 5 months and potentially have to deal with for the rest of my life, I'd say it's really not worth messing around with these drugs. If you're concerned, probably best that you binned it.

 

[stringybell]

Sorry to hear your symptoms have not yet resolved. I do think that by the sounds of it though, as you are "only" experiencing pain or mild discomfort (easy for me to say I know), and not any arguably more serious symptoms like reduced bladder volume, that it is highly likely your symptoms will still resolve with time...

I had a quick read through your older thread and I see you did visit a urologist, who said to come back if the symptoms didn't improve - did you go back there?

Also, how is your health generally, are you eating well, exercising, all that sort of thing? Again it might seem obvious so my apologies if it is to you, but it unfortunately isn't obvious to everyone that this sort of thing is important.

I have seen at least one report, on Bluelight, I believe, of someone with Ketamine-induced bladder symptoms which by the sounds of it were worse than yours, which, if I remember correctly, completely resolved after taking "Kambo" or "Sapo", ie, the venom of a species of frog. I have no idea if this has ever been replicated or if there is even any scientific basis to believe that this would work but this venom does seem to have been used for healing purposes in some cultures and there are various anecdotal reports of it being helpful for various conditions... so perhaps it is worth a try if you can get some of this venom somehow.

I would still love to hear your thoughts on my situation if you have any!

 

[justme6263]

I have been using K heavily and regularly for a bout a year and a half , slowing down over the past month, and I have been concerned about my bladder capacity. I haven't had any pain which is why I haven't been too concerned but my bladder capacity is very much less. I once had an amazing bladder but now I go to the loo quite regularly. I have been putting it down to getting older though, about to turn 28.

 

[Vastness]

^ Don't kid yourself mate, if you are a heavy user, as you describe, and your bladder capacity is decreasing, then chances are it is the Ketamine. 28 is not old enough for this to be age related.

I would still love to hear your thoughts on my situation if you have any!

I wish that I had some useful advice to give you, unfortunately I probably don't... but since you ask, I have actually had a few thoughts, I have found myself thinking about this occasionally... I guess because I have also been kind of detoxing recently from a K binge at the beginning of the year and occasionally I do still worry maybe I went a bit far that time and did something permanent that is going to come back to bite me.

My first thought, or rather, question, is have you considered the possibility that your symptoms, if not entirely psychological, may have a psychological component that is prolonging your recovery?

I ask because I'm assuming you knew about the bladder dangers of Ketamine before you developed this problem, and it seems that it does not have much functional impact on your life. I don't mean to diminish what you are experiencing here, I should say neurological rather than psychological maybe (arguably, at some level, they are essentially the same thing) because obviously regardless of the source it is still a real issue that you would like to deal with. But, do you ever find that the pain or discomfort is sufficient that it actually distracts you from something you are doing? Or is it moreso something that comes on when you have few distractions, and are alone with your thoughts, so to speak?

Again, I'm not saying that I think this is the case, of course I really don't know, it just occurred to me that maybe this is a possibility worth considering because at the end of my own aforementioned binge, I had my first (mercifully quite brief) twinge of bladder symptoms myself, and even now I am still not totally decided if I was feeling something real and physical, or if I just created this weird feeling in my head and started to associate the feeling of needing to urinate with something more sinister.

During this period I would only ever feel any increased "bladder awareness" (for lack of a better word) when I was alone, doing something mindless like watching a TV show, or just lying down to go to bed. It would never be a pain that would distract me if I was focused on something else. Regardless, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that K could induce this kind of psychological uncertainty in a person who was already aware of the bladder dangers... so if it WAS psychological/neurological, then other avenues to explore might be some kind of hypnotherapy or psychotherapy, although honestly I'm not sure how you'd go about finding a practitioner with the aim to treat this, specifically.


Aside from that - and working again on the assumption that your pain or discomfort is physical in origin - there are a few other things you could try to heal yourself. BPC-157 is probably the first thing I would try, I think, in your position - it's an interesting peptide which supposedly exhibits some kind of all-purpose healing properties for soft tissue, and there is some indication that it might be worth trying to heal bladder damage - although, it is worth noting, there is zero actual scientific research done on humans:

Study on rats with stress-induced urinary incontinence
Apparently successful anecdotal report of someone using it to treat prostatitis
Apparently successful anecdotal report of someone using it to treat pancreatitis


Actually, before you do that - I would try to quit drinking entirely. I see that you are taking a break from the other drugs, but cutting down on the drinking - I would actually do this the other way round. While the other drugs might aggravate the condition in an indirect way by causing you to forget to stay hydrated, or overexert yourself, or just the general, unspecific strain of taking a stimulant, there is nothing inherent about them that would cause bladder symptoms to get worse.

Alcohol, on the other hand, is just an inherently harmful drug, by most measures, and can actually cause cystitis on it's own (granted, usually only in very heavy drinkers) so there is a much higher chance of it aggravating an existing condition. I know that it is hard because alcohol is a social drug whereas the others, even if they may be social, are widely illegal and often stigmatised in many social circles, but if you are not dependent I would try first to quit drinking alcohol entirely for a few weeks and see if it makes a difference.

As ever, good luck, and I hope you get something useful from this.

 

[stringybell]

My first thought, or rather, question, is have you considered the possibility that your symptoms, if not entirely psychological, may have a psychological component that is prolonging your recovery?

I have considered this possibility. I am open to this being an explanation but the fact that I experienced a second flare up after the symptoms had disappeared, when I had no reason to expect them to return, a sign that a physiological basis is the more likely explanation.

But, do you ever find that the pain or discomfort is sufficient that it actually distracts you from something you are doing? Or is it moreso something that comes on when you have few distractions, and are alone with your thoughts, so to speak?

The only times when the pain or discomfort has been a real problem is when the flares are at their worst and I try to sleep. In these moments there's definitely a degree to which my mind focuses in on and potentially distorts the discomfort. Right now as I'm sitting typing this I am aware of discomfort and I would consider myself to be engaged.

Again, certain instances of pain and discomfort point towards a physiological basis. For example, I recall recently having a drink with someone and experiencing noticable discomfort (while sitting on a bar stool cross-legged) despite being very engaged in conversation. The discomfort is also considerably pronounced when I lie on my stomach or sit in certain positions.

Aside from that - and working again on the assumption that your pain or discomfort is physical in origin - there are a few other things you could try to heal yourself. BPC-157 is probably the first thing I would try.

I will certainly look into this if the symptoms don't resolved or get worse. Thanks for the tip.

Actually, before you do that - I would try to quit drinking entirely.

Sadly, I consider this to be a last resort. I wouldn't say I'm dependent but I'm a highly social person and (for better or worse) my preferred modes of socialising often involve drinking. If symptoms worsen I will definitely consider this as an option but at this stage I'm wary to quit drinking as I would consider this to be a significant lifestyle change and something I'm not ready to concede yet. It would feel like the condition has "won", if that makes sense.

I did quite coffee a couple of weeks ago (not so crucial to me) and the symptoms definitely seem to have improved though I'm not certain that correlation = causation in this case.

Thanks so much for taking the time to consider this and offer your thoughts. I hope you are right in that there is some psychological basis for my symptoms.

 

[oldnotnew]

Everyone is different, but I'll give you some hope and let you know my story. About 5 years ago I was doing ridiculous amounts of k a day, probably 7-10 grams a day. I would binge out for a week or so. Not all night but at the end of the binge, I would have so much adrenaline pumping, I was not able to sleep much at night. I was doing this for about 6-9 months.

While actively using at this rate, about 6 months in are when the problems started. At first it was just incontinence, then frequently urinating with only a little coming out, eventually got a UTI, and finally after the UTI I was just stuck with the pain. I was really forced to give up K and was still stuck with the problem for a while.

Like you I started to do other drugs after a while, and the flare ups returned. I would dabble in K every once in a while but nothing like my ridiculous usage, more like your's which I would consider "normal". I noticed it was higher dosage drugs that burn on ingestion would cause me problems like MDMA or Alcohol.

I eventually gave up drugs and now the problems have been gone for about a year. I even dabbled in K one time about a year ago and didn't have any problems. It took me about 2 years for the major symptoms to go away, but I feel I am mostly cured.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Does anyone have input on kratom and this issue? kratom seems to cause the same problem but unpredictably.

And when I take kratom the days following disso use I definitely notice it more. However there are many people with IC posting online saying they take kratom for the pain and it fixes it, so this is confusing to me. I couldn't find reports online of anyone saying kratom worsens IC, just that it provides pain relief

 

[Xorkoth]

Hmm, I've never heard of kratom causing bladder problems. I've read of it causing liver problems for some people. I used to do kratom 3-5 times a day for 7 years, and never experienced any bladder (or liver) issues.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Does anyone have input on kratom and this issue? kratom seems to cause the same problem but unpredictably.

And when I take kratom the days following disso use I definitely notice it more. However there are many people with IC posting online saying they take kratom for the pain and it fixes it, so this is confusing to me. I couldn't find reports online of anyone saying kratom worsens IC, just that it provides pain relief

I def a hard time peeing on kratom, however i never experienced any long term bladder issues from it.

Ketamine however usually makes my bladder a bit sore and reduces its capacity for a little while.

I havent really abused it to much, however i usually binge on it when i do.
I like getting about 3-5g and do it for a week or two, then im usually done for a few months.

 

[stringybell]

Everyone is different, but I'll give you some hope and let you know my story.

Thanks very much. This is exactly the kind of account I've had difficulty finding anywhere online.

Like you I started to do other drugs after a while, and the flare ups returned

So you didn't experience flare ups until you did other drugs?

I eventually gave up drugs and now the problems have been gone for about a year. I even dabbled in K one time about a year ago and didn't have any problems.

So you're not using any drugs at all now? What about alcohol?

It took me about 2 years for the major symptoms to go away, but I feel I am mostly cured.

What were the major symptoms when you were suffering them - and did they come in waves/flares? What symptoms do you still feel now?

Sorry for all the questions! Anything further you can share of your experience would be much appreciated.

 

[Tranced]

I've known a number of who people have been ketamine addicts over the years - quite a few friends/acquaintances were dealing in both oz and gram style quantities to supplement doing ketamine as much as possible. In fact, every ketamine addict I've ever known did this, using daily or at least multiple nights a week... interspersed with short breaks generally determined by supply/money issues Most have experienced (occasional) severe pains/cramps during use, which subsided via discontinuation, and quite a few complain about needing the toilet more than normal, but otherwise live normal lives since quitting.

Anyway, I know of one single person out of all of the ketamine addicts I know (who generally used for between as much as 3-7 years), who actually has medically diagnosed ketamine cystitis, and his situation is quite different and a lot more serious. The rest of them were just lucky or get out early, I guess. The frequent ketamine droughts a few years back probably helped most of them more than they can possibly know as well...

I really don't think "used 0.3 - 0.5 grams on weekends - occasionally both nights, for a few months" is of much concern, realistically. It is the chronic ketamine users who seem to be seeing the chronic/debilitating health problems, which should be readily diagnosed by medical examination.

FTR, I know quite a lot of people who complain about needing the toilet on a fairly regular basis, including myself, and I do think it can relatively normal and/or psychological. If you need the toilet a lot, try to train yourself not to go, and you should probably be doing regular kegel exercises to strengthen your pelvic floor muscles.

 

[oldnotnew]

Thanks very much. This is exactly the kind of account I've had difficulty finding anywhere online.



So you didn't experience flare ups until you did other drugs?

So you're not using any drugs at all now? What about alcohol?

What were the major symptoms when you were suffering them - and did they come in waves/flares? What symptoms do you still feel now?

Sorry for all the questions! Anything further you can share of your experience would be much appreciated.

Questions are not a problem man, everyone has them! I can't recally honestly if I had problems until I used other drugs. I do know when I did start using OC's it wasnt really a problem besides not pissing because of opiates. Xanax didn't cause any problems, but once I threw K into the mix, I got a UTI off of just 2 grams of K. I'm not sure if it was the K or sex. I know I'd never had a UTI since then though. I did do K another time after that about a year ago, I got 7 grams and then started a PCP binge for a few weeks and started having incontinence and what I call "K dick" which is the pins and needles feeling. The PCP binge kinda got to my kidneys but I just think that was due to the solvents its smoked with, and perhaps the K as well.

I totally agree with the Tranced though, .3-.5 grams on the weekend is not sufficient enough to cause damage unless you had been using for years every weekend or had an underlying genetic tendency or are otherwise sick.