Opioids Heroin and suboxone

[Satans666kush]

Yeah that really doesn't make any sense at all because most highs from buprenorphine are best usually at lower doses like 2 to 4 mg. High doses like that just saturate receptors with a partial agonist - it's really not a good feeling at all.

Are you on other medications?

I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it, because what you're describing is almost exactly opposite of normal.

Truthfully 24mgs all at once had me puking for like 45 minutes straight I much prefer 12mg truthfully I've never seen a 2or4mg sub only 8and12mg

How many days do you havta be off heroin to do suboxone and how long should you wait after to do heroin agian

 

[Deru]

2 to 4 mg of buprenorphine is best felt for the subjective high 3 or 4 days after complete cessation of heroin. The first few days are never going to be easy, even at high doses.

18 to 24 hours to start buprenorphine again after stopping heroin.

 

[Satans666kush]

2 to 4 mg of buprenorphine is best felt for the subjective high 3 or 4 days after complete cessation of heroin. The first few days are never going to be easy, even at high doses.

18 to 24 hours to start buprenorphine again after stopping heroin.

Okay thank you

 

[Rocketpower357]

2 to 4 mg of buprenorphine is best felt for the subjective high 3 or 4 days after complete cessation of heroin. The first few days are never going to be easy, even at high doses.

18 to 24 hours to start buprenorphine again after stopping heroin.

so how long after i quit taking the suboxone for me to be able to have ZERO tolerance and be able to feel heroin again??

 

[Deru]

so how long after i quit taking the suboxone for me to be able to have ZERO tolerance and be able to feel heroin again??

Way too many variables to answer accurately for zero tolerance. Four to five days to feel heroin again with a normal sized dose (depending upon daily buprenorphine doses, under 24mg per day will be less time somewhat proportional to dose)

 

[Rocketpower357]

Way too many variables to answer accurately for zero tolerance. Four to five days to feel heroin again with a normal sized dose (depending upon daily buprenorphine doses, under 16mg per day will be less time.)

well right now im only on 2mgs a day.....
So would it be substantially less that five days??

i was on 4mgs daily like a few weeks ago and i stopped for 24 hours and i was able to feel the heroin....it just took me ALOT to get high

 

[Deru]

Dose	Bio	Total	Total-Bio	MME
2	0.8	3.9275	1.571	117.8
		1.9275	0.771	57.825
		0.9275	0.371	27.825
		0.4275	0.171	12.825
		0.1875	0.075	5.625
		0.0625	0.025	1.875
		0	0	0

At 2 mg daily you have around 4 mg of drug blood plasma level, or about 50 percent mu-opioid receptor blockade.

After one day, you will be down to 2 mg and have only a roughly 25 percent receptor blocked. Doses of heroin slightly higher than normal would be able to be achieved by the second day.

By the end of day two, beginning day three, you could do normal doses of heroin with no adjustment needed.

This is calculated using 5 24 hour elimination half-lives - many variables can affect this - but it's a decent ballpark for a typical person.

Tolerance can and will affect this - impossible to try to calculate. This just gives a nice reference.

 

[Rocketpower357]

Dose	Bio	Total	Total-Bio	MME
2	0.8	3.865	1.546	115.95
		1.9275	0.771	57.825
		0.9275	0.371	27.825
		0.4275	0.171	12.825
		0.1875	0.075	5.625
		0.0625	0.025	1.875
		0	0	0

At 2 mg daily you have around 4 mg of drug blood plasma level, or about 50 percent mu-opioid receptor blockade.

After one day, you will be down to 2 mg and have only a roughly 25 percent receptor blocked. Doses of heroin slightly higher than normal would be able to be achieved by the second day.

By the end of day two, beginning day three, you could do normal doses of heroin with no adjustment needed.

This is calculated using 5 24 hour elimination half-lives - many variables can affect this - but it's a decent ballpark for a typical person.

Tolerance can and will affect this - impossible to try to calculate. This just gives a nice reference.

damn bro.
Im glad i asked YOU!!
Shit bro that was a hella well put together answer!!
Thank you!!!
So basically it takes 8mgs being in your system to have a full blockade effect??
And what are the variables that tolerance depends on??
I was under the impression that it was the effect of the suboxone itself that increases your tolerance?

 

[Deru]

16 mg gets close to 100 percent receptor blockade, but doses up to 32 mg daily can be required to achieve full blockade. 8 mg would be somewhere around a very, very rough 75 percent blockade (but remember, that's only if you take it one time. Every day you take it will add up.) It's not linear, it's more of an exponential curve.

Tolerance has to do with how your body and brain works and receptor down regulation and also your body starts producing less neurotransmitters as well - in essence your body is trying to achieve equilibrium and baseline with the constant addition of the drug. That can take years to get back to somewhat normal.

Your body is always trying to find equilibrium and balance. And that's why it's impossible to get high all the time, eventually your body will make physical changes to make that your new normal baseline with the additional chemicals, and that's where the problems begin - you need the drug to just achieve the new baseline and feel normal.

 

[I_Hate_This_Place]

Dose	Bio	Total	Total-Bio	MME
2	0.8	3.9275	1.571	117.8
		1.9275	0.771	57.825
		0.9275	0.371	27.825
		0.4275	0.171	12.825
		0.1875	0.075	5.625
		0.0625	0.025	1.875
		0	0	0

At 2 mg daily you have around 4 mg of drug blood plasma level, or about 50 percent mu-opioid receptor blockade.

After one day, you will be down to 2 mg and have only a roughly 25 percent receptor blocked. Doses of heroin slightly higher than normal would be able to be achieved by the second day.

By the end of day two, beginning day three, you could do normal doses of heroin with no adjustment needed.

This is calculated using 5 24 hour elimination half-lives - many variables can affect this - but it's a decent ballpark for a typical person.

Tolerance can and will affect this - impossible to try to calculate. This just gives a nice reference.

Nice post; quite helpful to the person asking the question. (y)

I'm just curious where did you get your MME &/or equianalgesic information from? IIRC the accepted ratio of buprenorphine to morphine is 40. However interestingly enough Belbuca (buccal buprenorphine strips for pain) is prescribed at up to the highest dose of 900mcg twice daily for what the prescribing information refers to as 160MME or less. It seems to me that the MME information regarding Belbuca seems to contradict the established MME's that I've been able to locate. Seeing as I was recently looking at various sources in an attempt to reconcile the differences I've described I'm interested as to what source('s) you used. Also now that it crossed my mind if you don't mind me asking do you also have a source on the receptor occupancy? I've always been interested in information regarding the ratio of dosage to receptor blockade.

 

[Deru]

I'm just curious where did you get your MME &/or equianalgesic information from? IIRC the accepted ratio of buprenorphine to morphine is 40

I've always used this one:

30 for sublingual adjusted bioavailability
75 for parenteral bioavailability

Relative bioavailability of sublingual to parenteral administration is 40%.

By the way, 30 to 40 sounds acceptable because the sublingual bioavailability is a range. I stick to 30 because it's easier to source it and also takes the median sublingual bioavailability range to make the MME land in a more typical range.

CMS (.gov) › Downloads › O...PDF
Web results
Opioid Oral Morphine Milligram Equivalent (MME) Conversion Factors1 ,2 - CMS

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw04r4tNN3Udh59keW4CC6CF

It's a .pdf, I'm not sure how to link it besides the link from Google.

And for mu-opioid receptor availability:

Buprenorphine maintenance and mu-opioid receptor availability in the treatment of opioid use disorder: implications for clinical use and policy

Sublingual formulations of buprenorphine (BUP) and BUP/naloxone have well-established pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic profiles, and are safe and effective for treating opioid use disorder. Since approvals of these formulations, their clinical use ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Buprenorphine maintenance and mu-opioid receptor availability in the treatment of opioid use disorder: Implications for clinical use and policy

Greenwald MK, Comer SD, Fiellin DA (2014) “Buprenorphine maintenance and mu-opioid receptor availability in the treatment of opioid use disorder: Implications for clinical use and policy.” Drug Alcohol Depend S0376-8716 (14)01025. Despite the increasing clinical use of buprenorphine (BUP) and...

pcssnow.org

I actually made an Excel spreadsheet with formulas so I can type in any different dose over a period of days to calculate this info, it works amazing to create taper plans and keeping the MME change under 30 per day. It makes it exponentially easier to gauge taper plans when using MME.

 

[Keif' Richards]

To successfuly insufflate BTH you would first need to make it into a solution. I think you will find that this is a pretty difficult to do effectively.

If injection is off the table, yes vaporizing is efficient in terms of BA, but if you're looking for a longer acting experience without the need or compulsion to use more, rectal administration is a great option.

You would follow the same initial process; making the BTH into a solution with up to 10ml of water. Whatever it takes to actually solute. Then administer and you will get something of a rush as it does come on pretty quickly.

I dont know if there is a scientific basis for this, but I use more water hoping that the larger amount of solution will be introduced to a larger surface area. Please correct me if Im wrong guys.

 

[Deru]

I dont know if there is a scientific basis for this, but I use more water hoping that the larger amount of solution will be introduced to a larger surface area. Please correct me if Im wrong guys.

More water may be helpful to get the BTH to dissolve better if it's not a neutral salt to begin with, but slightly base. It wouldn't be readily water soluble - but with more water it would dissolve.

As for most efficiently dissolving into nasal mucosa, smaller amounts of water - and a mist - would be most efficient. Too much water will just wind up down the throat and as oral administration before it is able to dissolve through the mucous membranes if administered too quickly.

There's definitely a spectrum of maximum to least efficient in regards to weighing those two variables, as more water may be needed to properly dissolve the BTH.

Also, pointing it slightly toward the outside of your nose, not toward your septum - at a 30 degree angle - and not far into the nose to begin with would achieve the ability for it to absorb into the largest surface area of nasal mucosa.

 

[Urb68]

OP , why are you asking people.is the dope you have will be enough to make it through a day of work.

Are you that much of a Newb or are you just looking for people to coddle you and tell you everything is gonna be alright?

 

[Keif' Richards]

OP , why are you asking people.is the dope you have will be enough to make it through a day of work.

Are you that much of a Newb or are you just looking for people to coddle you and tell you everything is gonna be alright?

What is your problem dude. There is no need for that. Youre not "cool" for making another member feel bad. You just look like someone desperate for human interaction but is afraid to admit the fact to anyone including himself.

Work on that dude. Youre only hurting yourself. We watch out for each other here and this sort of thing is not in accordance with the philosophy of our community.

 

[Urb68]

I have all kinds of problems , human interaction isn't one of them. There was in fact , a point I was trying to get at.
If this guy ( the op) is clueless as to how much he needs to get through the day , then he must be a Newb. Rather than coddle and coach him into a lifelong addiction to heroin , maybe he should have a reality check as to where this road leads to. One thing I can say for a degree of certainty from experience , it's nowhere good.

 

[Rocketpower357]

I have all kinds of problems , human interaction isn't one of them. There was in fact , a point I was trying to get at.
If this guy ( the op) is clueless as to how much he needs to get through the day , then he must be a Newb. Rather than coddle and coach him into a lifelong addiction to heroin , maybe he should have a reality check as to where this road leads to. One thing I can say for a degree of certainty from experience , it's nowhere good.

i wasnt coming to be coddled.
Just advised in the proper respects..


Im not a newb, im just a newb when it comes to kicking and using suboxone...
Been using for like 9 months straight, no kicks at all. Hard as fuck to hustle just to maintain as well as very hard to quit once you actually want to try it.

suboxone has become a major crutch for me that has helped alot.....

UPDATE:
I tried kicking the suboxone.....
It was hurting pretty bad at 24 hours.
Felt hot and cold.
First signs of withdrawl....
My girlfriend was saying mean shit to me so i went and dosed...i had some heroin on a knife and some in a cup....i watered it down and snorted it and it got me loaded....

suprised me, but i have been trying to flush this bupe out of my system since 12 noon yesterday, after having dosed just 3 hours prior, 2mgs.....

I guess im feeing relief From the bupe withdrawls, but im also noticeably high.

i guess thats because my mu-receptors havent been rubbed in a while right ?

i was suprised at how light years apart these two drugs are.
Suboxone doesnt touch any of the good receptors.

heroin touches all the ones sub does, and also the mu-receptors, correct?

what causes bupe to saturate receptors but not the mu-receptors?

 

[Deru]

what causes bupe to saturate receptors but not the mu-receptors?

Buprenorphine and diacetylmorphine bind to the same receptors, specifically the mu-opioid receptors.

The difference is buprenorphine is a partial agonist while diacetylmorphine is a full agonist. This is where most people make the illogical mistake to keep dosing higher with buprenorphine to achieve heroin like effects, it can't happen, and they're only hurting themselves at higher doses.

Stick to 4 mg of buperenorphine and below, and on your 4th day, you'll get as close to the subjective high you crave from diacetylmorphine as you can possibly get.

The first few days are not going to be fun, whether at 2 mg or 32 mg.

 

[Rocketpower357]

Stick to 4 mg of buperenorphine and below, and on your 4th day, you'll get as close to the subjective high you crave from diacetylmorphine as you can possibly get.

The first few days are not going to be fun, whether at 2 mg or 32 mg.

i was like 5-6 days on the suboxone....
And for the past three days ive been at 2mgs...

thats why i feel this so much??
Even just a small amount seemed to get me so loaded....whats the reasoning behind this?

i would think that sub would boost my tolerance....but only on some receptors??

why would it be strongest at 4 days and ONLY at under 4mgs?

this whole time ive been on 4mgs or less and 2mg for the past three days

 

[Satans666kush]

To successfuly insufflate BTH you would first need to make it into a solution. I think you will find that this is a pretty difficult to do effectively.

If injection is off the table, yes vaporizing is efficient in terms of BA, but if you're looking for a longer acting experience without the need or compulsion to use more, rectal administration is a great option.

You would follow the same initial process; making the BTH into a solution with up to 10ml of water. Whatever it takes to actually solute. Then administer and you will get something of a rush as it does come on pretty quickly.

I dont know if there is a scientific basis for this, but I use more water hoping that the larger amount of solution will be introduced to a larger surface area. Please correct me if Im wrong guys.

I was always under the impression that 2ml of what was the most you should use as less water takes less time to absorb n im pretty sure 10ml of water would leak right out your ass