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HELP! Visual Snow, possible HPPD...am i screwed!?

classic MDMA hallucinations haha, they're always good fun.

Yeh like from far away I'm dead sure they are humans, but they always look like they stare at me or look somewhere but they never move. Then a few feets away I'm like 'ah right it's just another car seat' haha. Like the construction barrier was in the middle of the subway allays... and it looked like a black man layed back in blue jeans and nacked torso.

@futura2012, It is MDMA man very pure, it was reagent tested, bitter taste and it's from a very trusted source (Netherlands). I just think I'm very sensitive to it, maybe that kid wasn't an hallucination we will never know. I'm quite responsible with my MD use... I do wait 4-6 weeks between my rolls.
 
Hello Hapomen

Cheers for the message

Fair enough if you know the true source of your MDMA all good. Hallucinations of this scale at a 125mG I wouldnt describe as a classic case of MDMA experience but only my opinion. As you say we all react different.

A reagent test for the MDMA is good, not so sure about the taste as a test, in my opinion the scent of MDMA is a better spot check. Its not ideal but the aniseed smell will narrow things down a bit.

When you said

"I never did psychedelics but I guess I'm very sensitive to developing HPPD if MDMA affects me this way."

I assumed you were new to MDMA but I am glad to hear you are a seasoned user. Forgive me for misunderstanding this.

The important thing is you recover from your HPPD episode. Please keep us posted how you get on.

The kid experience we will never know if it was reality or not but either way it sounded like quite an experience for you at 3am in the morning!

I hope the HPPD clears up for you as soon as possible. Take care my friend.

Good Luck

Futura
 
John H. Halpern, Harrison G. Pope, Jr
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/hppd.review.pdf

Read ^

Of particular relevance...

"After excluding these types of cases, we are left with a
core of ‘strict’ HPPD cases, where a neurological or
psychiatric diathesis in some individuals leads to persistent
visual phenomena long after hallucinogen exposure.
The mechanism of these cases remains uncertain. Abraham
et al. (1996), for example, hypothesizes that HPPD
is a ‘‘disinhibition of visual processing related to a loss
of serotonin receptors on inhibitory interneurons’’.
"

Serotonin, the primary neurotransmitter of digestion, is an inhibitor and moderator of MANY brain functions.
Your intestines are literally wired to the entire brain, more densely than ANY other neurotransmitter system.
It impacts the flow of blood, the the consumption of glucose, the dispersal of acetyl-choline, the transmission of dopamine, and the firing of many types of neurons.

The visual cortex in particular is a very dense region of serotonin innervation, which also means a dense supply of blood vessels.
Compared to other senses, a rather LARGE portion of the cortex is devoted to sight.

From George Hatzidimitriou, Una D. McCann, and George A. Ricaurte
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/12/5096.full

"Seven years after MDMA treatment, 5-HT axon density remained decreased in all neocortical regions examined (Fig. 1, Table 2), although there was significant recovery relative to the 2 week survivors. In general, all neocortical cell layers appeared equally denervated. However, in the primary visual cortex and occipital cortical regions, the largest reduction in fibers was evident in layer IVC. The decrease in density of layer IVC is such that it is no longer discernible as a distinct layer in MDMA-treated monkeys after a 7 year survival period (Fig. 1). "

The last sentence is referring to the fact that this particular layer of the visual cortex is quite impressive in its serotonin density (in control monkeys). The loss of density is so severe and long-lasting that this layer is not 'discernible' as a serotonin-rich layer compared to surrounding layers.

Make sense?

What the seven year study proves is that when a truly TOXIC dosing regimen is administered to a primate brain - the visual cortex contains a portion of serotonin nerves that are more vulnerable. And unlikely to recover...

This does not necessarily translate to human HPPD cases.
But it is a very good candidate for explanation.

Although it is believed that human brains are MORE vulnerable to MDMA neurotoxicity than other primates, the dosages given in this study were very high.

To be precise....for a person weighing 70kg the equivalent dose would be 350mg of pure MDMA taken TWICE per day (9AM and 5PM).
Four days in a row.
Injected!

That is 2.8 grams of MDMA stretched out over four days.
So you can imagine this is a pretty heavy 'binge' model that most people simply never attain.
Most...

Yet it provides us with data that shows the visual cortex is vulnerable to neurotoxicity - perhaps even at lower doses.
When damage does occur, you can bet that this region will be affected.

Other studies on MDMA have shown that the visual cortex experiences an up-regulation of 5HT-2B receptors, perhaps as a compensatory mechanism following the loss of other receptor types. The 2A and 2C receptors are believed to be directly responsible for the visual effects of LSD and mushrooms. LSD has 100 times more affinity for the 2A receptor than psylocibin and a MUCH higher rate of 'flashbacks' or HPPD.

Few studies of MDMA-induced HPPD exist.
I have read and personally experienced the following visual phenomena post MDMA and Serotonin Syndrome:

The world seemed slightly distant.
This is hard to describe in words, but it seems more accurate to say that I was more distant from the world.
Like my eyes were set back in my skull - at least six inches.

Not only was I further away from what I was seeing, but colors seemed drained of their richness and textures robbed of their definition.
My eyes could hardly focus on things far away, and switching between close and distant was very disorienting.

More importantly than what I described above, the world seemed to be hidden behind a nearly invisible sheet of glass.
Or maybe it looked like everything I saw was playing on a movie screen - projected from a distance behind me.
'Dream-like' doesn't quite capture it, but it will have to do.
It was the type of thing that one might expect to induce a sense of euphoria, yet this is far from truth.
No - this new existence was cold, hollow, dry.
Empty.

Human beings were very strange to look at.
They seemed two-dimensional - card-board like.
Yes, two dimensional card-board cut outs with faces that I couldn't understand.
I didn't want to look at faces or to see mouths speaking.

The neurons that distinguish faces simply were NOT working for me.
And facial expressions were completely unnoticed.

I avoided eye-contact at all times, preferring to look down at the floor like an abused child.
Odd - I have heard the EXACT same thing from people withdrawing from SSRIs.
Looking at faces seems to be such a challenge that one instinctively avoids them.

I remember forcing myself to tolerate this condition - to look directly at the face of my wife.
To speak with her. And the same with neighbors.
With great effort, I was able to overcome this lack of visual perception.
I could see facial expressions and I could remember what they meant.
I could see colors, at least to know they were there.
Textures required greater concentration - eyes too lazy for such things.

Yet it was obvious, my brain was drawn away from distinguishing these images.
It was like a magnet being repelled - I could force it, but only with continuous effort.

This is how things were for the first four weeks.
I was CERTAIN that I was getting a preview of what the world looks like to an elderly person.
Yes, a 90 year old man would see the world this way.
But I was 28.

Absolutely terrifying...

Then I discovered Piracetam, after four weeks of suffering.
Within an hour of my first dose I felt the change.

My stomach came back to life!
I felt the warmth of fluids rushing from the stomach to the small intestines.
I felt my metabolism increase.
For the first time in a month I emitted body odor from my armpits.
And I could feel my genitals again!
And the bottoms of my hands and feet.

Then I realized my vision was improving too.
Yes, by the second dose I knew it was happening.
Colors flooded back into vibrancy!
Textures regained their definition.

I could see the pores and freckles on my beautiful wife's face, and it SHOCKED me.
Almost like I had forgotten such things existed...

To say that I felt relief is a vast understatement.
I was a man reborn.
Resurrected.

In a matter of hours I went from the greatest emptiness to absolute salvation.
I cried tears of joy.

I would later learn that Piracetam preferentially increases serotonin and dopamine in higher brain regions.
I also learned that I required VERY small doses to maintain the positive change.
Only the first three days of dosing provided the euphoric and incredible emotional response that I felt.
After this continued use simply maintained the feeling of 'normal'.
Ok, there was incredible mental stimulation - as evidenced by my excessive reading and posting on BL.

But the emotional transition was temporary.
The benefits were not - my HPPD and anxiety and depression all subsided.
As long as I continued taking 100mg or so every day my salvation continued.

I concluded several times in the following few months that my recovery was 'almost complete'.
Exercise was already giving me incredible relief, even before piracetam was introduced.
I actually had cycles - 5 days of horrible soul-destroying suffering followed by 2 days of being absolutely 'normal'.
It was the Piracetam that interrupted these cycles.

About three weeks into taking it I realized I was getting mild headaches.
More than this, I started feeling overstimulated by it. Almost jittery.
So I stopped cold-turkey.

The first few days of withdrawal actually made me feel BETTER.
It was like my neurotransmitters were re-aligning on their own.
The euphoria and mental clarity got better.

Then the worst thing I could imagine happened - color started draining from my world again.
It took less than a week to realize that Piracetam was no cure.
Its effect, although incredible, was temporary.

The emptiness consumed me.
I could not believe how far I fell.
The worst part was that it was insidious - it came from within.
It was a slow descent, but it didn't stop.

I knew that I couldn't live without the Piracetam.
And the return of HPPD was the clearest indication of this.
I would cycle on and off my miracle supplement until 6 months post MDMA, never spending more than two horrible weeks without it.

At six months I got a new job and decided I had to disconnect from my research and writing.
Focusing on something else, getting on with my life (like everyone says on BL) must be the key.
Right?

Hardly.

While it must be done, returning to normal life is NOT a cure for the condition.
Suffering and emptiness persists.
And quitting cold-turkey again meant the most HORRIBLE head-pressure that I ever experienced.
My sinus and eyeballs were being pushed right out of my skull!

I am certain I experienced my first strokes, or TIAs, at this point.
But I was determined to remain off the powder.
Oddly, the brightness of colors surged forth that week.
During the worst of my head-pressure the colors were brightest!

I think I made it a whole month before giving up and jumping back on the Piracetam.
I would try again after a month on it - believing that one day the descent would be survivable.
By month 7 I had a real stroke - feeling my entire right arm go numb.
Fortunately it lasted minutes and I recovered.

I believe this is one of the things that allowed me to truly step away from the stuff.
It was like a pressure release valve.

I made it to 100+ days before I gave up the next time.
I really thought that I was going to keep off of it, but eventually I was forced to admit I wasn't ready.
Exercise, healthy diet, sleeping, fucking, working, living....none of this was enough.

It wasn't until 13 months had passed that I stepped away for good.
I was determined to endure whatever might happen.
That is when I truly started to change cognitively.
Months 14-17 caused real changes in cognition and personality - until then I was the 'old' me in a state of intense suffering.
But during this period of time I was becoming somebody different.
I was no longer 'me'.

And this is why the suffering stopped.
I was adapting my cortical neurons to the new serotonin structure.

Reading and writing became very challenging.
This was a sad time for me, because I held onto my intellect like a lifeline during the first year.
I couldn't believe that it was slipping away, changing.

My vision also became VERY stable.
The worst of the HPPD stopped by month 6 - colors, textures, facial expressions...all OK. Not great, but ok.
But I could tell that my eyes were not aligned with each other - like an astigmatism, the two images were not stitched together correctly in my brain. Forcing my eyes to focus on an object right in front of my face would make me dizzy! So I did it thinking it would help.

It wasn't until after the one year mark that the 'astigmatism' effect had nearly vanished.
I was glad to say that the vision I was left with by the 18 month point was quite acceptable - I would gladly live with it for the rest of my life.

Even now I have intermittent difficulty focusing on words, but the deterioration seems to have stopped.
And most days I can read and write just fine, although I am more likely to make spelling mistakes without noticing.
My fingers don't seem to know the keyboard as perfectly as they used to - but this is not the case right now.

I said intermittent for a reason.
Many days my vision seems 99% perfect.
The tiny 1% might balloon to 5% on bad days, a couple times per month.

This abstract description of my HPPD is meant to communicate to the other HPPD suffers in this thread one basic thing.
If my horrible case of HPPD can reach this level of resolution, then SO CAN YOURS.

Despite the research showing loss of visual cortex innervation after seven years...
I can truly say that the overall quality of vision is not greatly affected.
If anything it is the meaning of what I see, the emotional impact of certain things (sunsets, landscapes, naked women) that seems altered.
And even these things are slowly returning to normal.

HPPD is NOT permanent.

Even Halpern's review of countless old studies on LSD find that most cases of HPPD last weeks to months.
Considering how powerful the visual effects of LSD versus MDMA, it should be concluded that MDMA holds a relatively small risk of long-term visual change.

In all my reading I found only two case reports showing hallucination or HPPD in abstinent MDMA users post 3 years.
I cannot find them or I would post them, but both were very heavy MDMA and poly drug users.
One was a female reporting 'spiders' in the shadows after four years of recovery, and this was very distressing to her.

Many other anecdotes seem to indicate visual snow or 'floaters'.
I got mild snow and 'static' but only after month 7 when I really stopped the Piracetam.
And it was mild and almost enjoyable to see...
And then it stopped.

Regardless of the exact type of HPPD, it simply tends to resolve itself.
This is very important to believe when you are experiencing it - because it is natural to believe your new reality is 'permanent'.
After all, waking up to the nightmare every morning sure enforces the thought of permanent damage.

Just remember, your intestines are still working.
The contraction of smooth muscle tissue around the body is constantly changing the innervation of serotonin in the brain.
This is a VERY long-term process and the brain will never stop adapting.

I hope this helps littlestar.
My HPPD was BAD.

And now its GONE.

FBC
 
Hello FBC

Great to read such extensive research.

Hows your recovery going in general?

Minus the HPPD how is the anxiety, depression etc? Been a long recovery time for you indeed.

Interesting to hear your updates on the piracetam. I havent got round to trying any myself yet had mixed thouhts on it.

The HPPD has definitely improved for me also over the past few months so it just reinforces that the recovery happens it just seems like forever sometimes.

Always a pleasure to read your posts.

Futura
 
A year and nine months sure seems like a long time.
And when it all began I really thought that it would be less than six months.
At six months I thought it would be nine.

By month eight I felt a little more realistic - willing to believe in the two year plus timeline.
But around the twelve month mark I felt a real change.
Once again I concluded - "I am nearly finished..."

So certain was I, that I stopped taking the Piracetam once and for all.
Then I realized that I had been delaying the inevitable.

Having read other reports on BL of long-term recoveries, I now believe mine to be rather brief.
A few have clearly said that 4+ years was not enough to return to 'normal'.
Littlestar, please do not read anything into this - you are far from such a fate.

I must conclude that exercising regularly, nearly every day, during the entire process has made an immeasurable difference.
I cannot imagine this process without it.
If only I had avoided cannabis and alcohol...

No, such thoughts are useless too.
Deep down I know for a fact that this truly is a TWO YEAR process.
And should this be such a surprise?

How long does an infant brain take to develop?
Doesn't it take at least two years just to learn not to SHIT on yourself?

In some ways this is a developmental process.
For an adult brain to reestablish its densest neurotransmitter system - surely this is no six month prospect!
While I absolutely believe that 'recovery' will progress almost indefinitely into my future...
I also feel another big change ahead, in the next few months.
The 'final plateau'.

Others have stated that at 2 years there was a real crossover.
That they finally stopped trying to figure it all out and accepted whatever they were to become.
This acceptance, to me, indicates a basic restoration of HPA axis function.

Yes, I can do both - analyze and understand the technical and also let go. Accept.
I hope that I maintain this ability, to some degree.

Anxiety?
Depression?

Not really.
More like weeks of mild boredom, followed by sudden and intense bouts of anger.
Frustration, anger, irritation - the sudden need for solitude.
By sudden I mean it builds for hours but explodes in minutes.
And then I go back to feeling empty and bored for weeks in a row.

But these cycles may be disappearing before my eyes.
As I type, it has been over six weeks since my last major outburst.
And I don't expect another real one to happen.
Maybe that is why I'm on BL again - the stimulation of writing is less likely to cause subsequent distress.
Dopamine is a hell of a drug...

Anxiety really doesn't exist anymore - unless I have strong digestive complaints.
Depression has become reality, and is therefore not so depressing anymore.
The greatest loss is in my analytical abilities and multitasking.
I mourn the loss of my previous cognitive abilities.

Yet even this 'loss' seems to be easier and easier to accept.
It is as if ANYTHING I choose to get upset about, anything that raises my dopamine levels will result in the loss of anxiety over that thought. Obsessing about something prevents future obsession.

Fascinating.

Yet here I am returning to what I used to consider a 'calling' - one filled with anxiety and dopamine.
Why?

I guess I have chosen not to let my brain re-wire all of my former personality.
I am choosing not to stop being the old me, in some cognitive way.

That is the most fascinating thing about the brain.
We can choose for things to change.

I am literally feeling my 'prolactin response' to life return.
I wish I could explain why that is so important.
Oh well, that is another twenty paragraphs.
Some other day...
 
Hello FBC

As always a pleasure to read your posts.

I was chatting with a friend last night and we were saying how your posts have inspired so many.

Lets hope that one day we will be reporting total recovery and hanging out on BL just to help and reassure others.

Emptyness and boredom is a good description if only somehow we could avoid this feeling but its just always there.

One year nine months for you wow a long time in recovery. For me 11 months now. Lets just pray for this pain to leave us.

I am glad you are back on bluelight again.

Your an inspiration to everyone.

Keep up the really good and important work.

Futura
 
Hello Projump

The original post was 2007 it got bumped as a few people have been having similiar issues.

Interesting question it could shed some light on how the HPPD has cleared up after 5 years.

Maybe try a PM.

If you get an update please let us all know.
 
Futura

I remember a time when i was using RCs and E often many years ago, about 10 years ago and took a break for 8 years and I just got back into it about 2 years ago.. but what i noticed was that when i had a long break I actually forgot all about these things, they were like distant dreams, I knew E was an amazing feeling, i knew these RCs and shrooms would cause me to see things, but i really forgot what they were all about... the only reason i got back into it was because my best friend who never wanted to take part in this stuff 10 years ago started to show interest by way of wanting to try LSD.. go figure we do LSD both for our first time 2 years ago, i was really worried about taking LSD but as soon as the effects came on I felt at home, i knew what to expect and it was just what i thought it would be, shockingly similar to the 2c-i or 4-aco-det etc, it had the same thing going on, different but more similar in many ways..

And today we are going to try these good MDA pills i picked up, this will be the first in a long time for me and i am a bit nervous.. and reading this guys OP does not help. LOL wish me luck tonight, ill take 1/2 a pill because i hear these are strong, in fact i weight it at it was 256mg the good news is that these look like the ones that were just tested on Edata site.. so i am confident in what i have, not to mention the guy i got them from is really cool and is involved in the scene..
 
Hello projump

Go easy with the MDA mate its strong. Not sure if 256mG is the weight of the pill or the actual dose but its STRONG.

LSD was never my drug of choice I tried it twice in my life. First time a Red Dragon (very strong) the second a Yin Yang. I never liked the duration it was too much for me. I found the feeling too varied too up and down. 12 hours is too long to be fucked up.

MDA is powerful much more hallucinogenic than MDMA and potentially more toxic so be safe.

Have fun.
 
Just to keep you all updated, I still see lights all weird out (and some lights I see normal shaped lights with light shines)... it's been exactly 15 days since I dropped that pretty high eyeballed dose of molly (for someone as lightweight, sensitive and zero tolerance as me) and I don't even see any improvements in my vision at night... I start to think I will see this way for a good couple of months now.
 
Hello Hapomen

Cheers for the update. Certainly looks like you might be in for a few months of recovery sorry to hear that.

The visual cortex is a very sensitive and delicate part of our brain. Recovery takes a while for sure.

My HPPD has definitely improved after 11 months now. It takes a lot of time but recovery is very possible.

Hang in there I know its not nice.
 
Hello projump

Go easy with the MDA mate its strong. Not sure if 256mG is the weight of the pill or the actual dose but its STRONG.

LSD was never my drug of choice I tried it twice in my life. First time a Red Dragon (very strong) the second a Yin Yang. I never liked the duration it was too much for me. I found the feeling too varied too up and down. 12 hours is too long to be fucked up.

MDA is powerful much more hallucinogenic than MDMA and potentially more toxic so be safe.

Have fun.

this was the actual pill weight, so i would love to know how much MDA it was.. I took a half and was rolling and took the second half when i thought i was safe.. over all good experience, my friend had to lay down at a point during the peak, he said it was getting to be too much.. but he loved it after that.
 
hi littlestar... i have that jaw pain too...:S from mdma comedown, a want to ask you how is it going? are you feeling better today?
 
@derok Usually the jaw pain goes away the day after (2nd day), at least that's the case for me.

A quick update for my case, it's been a month day for day, my mild HPPD seems to slowly go away, I still see lights considerably brighter/shinier at night with the same weird visuals (but not as intense, the dots and everything looks smaller and more packed together now). I also noticed when I'm tired and hanging out at night, I still sometimes confuse post office boxes or parking pay stations to be humans even though I'm sober I know its not real. I guess it's just a very long lasting comedown, there's improvements though so that's a good sign.
 
i havea long term comedown from ectasy use, that maked me feel terrible anxierty till today (more decreased, im actually on treatment) and that anxiety make me feel some kind of bruxism that cause me jaw pain ciclicly..(it comes and goes), that kind of jaw pain hehe :)
 
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I'm a hundred percent sure I've gotten hppd from my ecstasy and mdma abuse this last year. I'd like to know if anyone else is like this, but I actually enjoy it haha. It seems as though my vision is in high definition. I can see every little thing. Also things that aren't bright are bright and if it's bright it's brighter. Win win for me
 
Unfortunate for most it usually comes bundled with anxiety, depression and a load of other 'goodies'

Ecstasy will for sure cause HPPD as it will interfere with the Visual Cortex in the brain just like any other psychedelic drug.

Visual distortions can be witnessed anything from just during the high to months or years afterwards.

If you are just having HPPD and nothing else and sound like in a way you are able to enjoy it you must count yourself lucky.

Be a bit careful however cause if you have HPPD its your body telling you that you are over doing it some what.

The Visual Cortex is a super sensitive aspect of the brain if you damage it the repair process can take many years to fix properly.

It seems as though my vision is in high definition. I can see every little thing. Also things that aren't bright are bright and if it's bright it's brighter. Win win for me

I have never heard anyone say that about HPPD but if you knock this up a gear and get a long term comedown anxiety etc this could very quickly change from win win to rather rather upset.

If you look at this very thread you can see people who are very upset and disturbed from the HPPD and related symptoms.

Maybe take it easy for a while and see if you can get the HPPD to level out a bit. After a month or so you should see some improvement.

If I were in your shoes right now I would have along break but thats just me. At the end of it all its your choice.

Good luck my friend hope these comments help you out.

Futura
 
sometimes i think i am depressed and have a loss of motivation due to MDA. However i am just not sure..
 
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