gay marriages (merged)

[Chaos Butterfly]

^^

there are many many many, in fact ridiculously many people who ALREADY have blatant disrespect for god. I can't see this making that much of a difference really.

I really look forward to seeing that 'some day' when society as we know it collapses because of gay marriages...

CB.

 

[glowbug]

Whew...perusing this thread has been fun.

The reality on the gay marriage issue is that it's coming, whether you agree with it or not...once Pandora's Box has been opened, you can't shut it again, and now that advocates of gay marriage have gotten a taste of the freedom they desire they will not stop until they have gained the full breadth of it.

So to the people that oppose it on whatever basis, I say why fight it? Learn to accept it and move on. Continuing to fight it makes you no different than the homosexuals who continue to struggle with the truth of their sexual identity, only the thing that YOU are struggling with is accepting your own essential equality with every other human being, no matter how abhorrent you may view some of them to be.

Why do you fight it? Because you love holding onto the idea that as flawed as you may be, you're still morally superior to "those deviant faggots" (or whatever the en vogue persecuted group du jour may be), though these days you don't dare to use those pejorative words in public, a concession you have made to keep that comforting thought alive. You can't bear the thought of accepting the truth that nothing intrinsically separates you from the people upon whom you sit in judgment.

And deep down, you loathe the creeping thought that nothing will remain with which you may separate yourself from the "immoral". After no group remains upon which to judge yourself as being morally superior, what is left? Nothing but the actions of humans as individuals...and having already acknowledged to yourself (albeit begrudgingly in some instances) that ALL humans are flawed and essentially weak, that is an extremely unpleasant thought. That we might all actually share the same heart of darkness! The horror! The horror!

It's a spiritual immaturity. To borrow a Christian metaphor, you have to descend into hell, the heart of darkness, before you can ever ascend to the next plane. And that is a scary prospect, but true freedom IS scary. Empowering, yes, but scary at the same time (for what if it ISN'T all that we imagined?).

Very few people actually WANT true freedom...myself included. Though I SAY I want true freedom, I'm not arrogant enough to include myself among those who have attained it at this point. Maybe, though, that self-expressed humility is merely a false front for MY arrogance...maybe humility is MY vehicle for maintaining an air of superiority...who knows...lol.

Anyway, enough solipsism. Continuing to argue so vigorously over the morality of gay marriage when both sides are solidly entrenched in their positions is futile and will only degenerate into personal attacks and nitpicking over largely irrelevant points. The only thing that will change the views of either side is verifiable data. And that verifiable data is on the way, because advocates of gay marriage are not going to stop until they've won the day, which they eventually will. And then, if they turn out to be wrong and gay marriage IS an abomination, the opponents of gay marriage will have the luxury (or consolation prize, whichever way you look at it) of saying, "I told you so!" Small consolation, of course, but a consolation nonetheless.

Support the side you support and put your trust in the outcome...the proof will undoubtedly be in the pudding.

 

[fizzygirl]

nice job glowbug

*hugs*

 

[glowbug]

Thanks fizzy...backatcha. *hugs*

 

[Brock]

Originally posted by DigitalDuality

If you equate what your god wants with what is "natural", how is it that so many species on this earth are asexual? heterosexual? and even homosexual? Why would god have so many species in the animal kingdom that displayed homosexuality, if he hated and despised it?

You are not open to my answer to this question.

How many other species unite themselves in courts and churches and call anyone who disagrees or opposes their actions "intolerant bigots"?

 

[LiquidEyes]

In the eyes of the government, what's the difference between Christians and gays? Their both special interest groups.
...
So why not set the stage equal and neutral?

^ Yeah that.

But if you like religious law so much, I'm sure the middle east has plenty of vacancies here lately and they love these kind of laws. See how far it has gotten them all these centuries?

^ Yeah that.

Why would god have so many species in the animal kingdom that displayed homosexuality, if he hated and despised it?

Cue standard religious disclaimer: (delete as applicable)
* God moves in mysterious ways
* We are not allowed to question God
* All of the above

 

[PlurredChemistry]

My point with that comment was implying the homosexual lifestyle, if adopted by all humans, would erase our species in 130 years. Does that seem very healthy to you?

so when gay marriage is legalized are you going to "go gay" because it is now sanctioned by the courts?

 

[Brock]

so when gay marriage is legalized are you going to "go gay" because it is now sanctioned by the courts?

you missed my point

DD, IMO God didn't "create" homosexuality. It is a product of our own free will, born into the world with the rest of sin, and influenced by the spiritual realm.

I know that I'm not "above" anyone else. I sin too so I have no right to judge others. I'm simply stating my feelings on this topic.

peace out, I have nothing else to say about this.

 

[alasdairm]

My point with that comment was implying the homosexual lifestyle, if adopted by all humans, would erase our species in 130 years. Does that seem very healthy to you?

that's a specious argument and i suspect we both know it? at the risk of teeing up the other side of a false dilemma...

if procreation were adopted by all humans, the planet would be massively overpopulated in no time so that can't be 'right' either, can it?

alasdair

 

[Brock]

if procreation were adopted by all humans, the planet would be massively overpopulated in no time so that can't be 'right' either, can it?

From the gist of your post, I gather you deem homosexuality as a form of population control/sexual genocide in order to keep our planet from becoming overpopulated?

DD, I'm saying spirits inhabit beasts too.

 

[Brock]

"incapable of asking for forgiveness or comprehending religion"; now you're on to something

They do not have the conscience that we do because they do not have the capacity to openly accept or reject God/Christ.

 

[PlurredChemistry]

I know that I'm not "above" anyone else. I sin too so I have no right to judge others. I'm simply stating my feelings on this topic.

so then why prevent two people from doing something that is right for them??? it doesn't affect you negatively at all, especially becuase you "sin too so [you] have no right to judge others."

i could understand these arguments if gay marriage affected you, but it doesn't! isn't being gay a sin regardless if gays are allowed to be married or not? allowing gays to marry isn't going to change the fact that they exist...

why is this sin different from all the other ones that people commit everyday?

 

[alasdairm]

From the gist of your post, I gather you deem homosexuality as a form of population control/sexual genocide in order to keep our planet from becoming overpopulated?

not really - i was just using this as an example of how "if everybody did it..." is a poor argument.

alasdair

 

[Brock]

Originally posted by DigitalDuality
I see you've been on bluelight.. hell quite longer than myself. Would i be wrong in assuming you use drugs?

nah, good assumption.. used to but haven't in awhile

justify drug use in regardence to your holy temple in the eyes of god?

Interesting question which is another topic entirely. Short answer: it's not the things we injest that make us unclean, it's what comes out of us that make us unclean. From the inside, from a person's heart, come the evil ideas which lead him to to immoral things: to rob, kill, commit adultery, greed, and do all sorts of evil things; deceit, indecency, jealousy, slander, pride, and folly.

If you support drug use, despite your religion, how it any different than gay christians, or just gays under the law getting married and falling in love?

I don't support it.

 

[Chaos Butterfly]

Tell me how my love for another man makes me unlcean. How is this LOVE any different to any other LOVE, is it not intent that really defines any difference here.

I will not have you stand up on your religious high horse and deem all homosexuals as unclean. That is bullshit and you know it.

Sorry to all who are trying to have a flowing conversation on this topic, but this really gets my back up, and hey we've been over quite a bit in this thread already...

CB.

 

[Brock]

calm down CB, I was responding to DDs question about justifying drug use

 

[zx13xz]

The main problem with those that believe that homosexuality is wrong is that they can't substantiate it past the point of personal belief. They may try to rationalize it with religious or scientific "facts", but their logic falls apart rather easily.
For instance, those that base their knowledge on "what the Bible says" about homosexuality have to reconcile that with what the Bible also says about the treatment of women and those that plant two different crops in the same field. If the Bible is the word of God, than God is a tremendous bigot. Now, as a Christian, you have the interesting character of Jesus who calls for people to live by the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. He also states that man can not stand in judgement of his fellow man, so, by judging homosexuals you are completely going against what Jesus has written. If you want to argue that Jesus was misrepresented or that the Gospels are not Jesus' message, then by all means destroy your entire religion.

As far as my understanding of Christianity goes, Jesus cared about two things: compassion (and acts of compassion) and faith. Sinners are supposed to repent of their own free will, not by force. By harboring anything but love for homosexuals, you are sinning as well. As a sinner, how can you possibly show another sinner the correct way to live? You obviously haven't figured it out yourself. I seem to remember something about beams and specks in people's eyes. If one is supposed to follow Jesus' example, than one should show nothing but infinite love and compassion for sinners. If this doesn't turn them from sin, no amount of hate and bigotry will.

Now, as far as marriage goes. Marriage has the difficult problem of being considered both a social institution and a sacrament. The solution is quite simple: legal marriages should all be termed "civil unions." As it is, the fact that legal marriages allow for divorce (not to be confused with annulment) in the first place takes them outside the bounds of a religious marriage anyway. If God is the true authority over marriage, then a legal marriage doesn't mean anything to him, so why make such a big fuss.

Now on to the benefits of homosexual marriage or civil union.
1.) It affords homosexual couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.
2.) With these rights it would be much easier for homosexuals to adopt children. This would help off set the problem off all those heterosexuals who choose to give their children up for adoption. (Children given up for adoption are almost always the result of "sin". Whether it is irresponsible premarital sex or rape.) This would lead to better care for children given up for adoption. The end result: less abortion. When mother's think that there baby is not going to have a miserable life in foster care, they are more likely to give their child up for adoption than to abort it.
3.) Homosexuals and others will stop bitching about it. They will get out of your face and just live their lives and everyone can shut up.
4.) Less people growing up as homosexuals will equate homosexuality with promescuity. More life-long monogamy (no cheating!) = less spread of STDs.

I have a sneaking suspicion that people's motivations for making gay marriages illegal has a less than noble root of saving their souls. Consider the fact that men still make more money than women in the US. Then imagine the earning power of two men with no children to take care of? Gay men are poised to be much more successful in business than straight men. And in this country, with money comes power.

 

[zx13xz]

Now for the fun science part. Is homosexuality inherited? Probably not. It is pretty hard to inherit something which is self-defeating in terms of sexual reproduction. But the religious fundamentalist don't get to rejoice quite yet. Anyone with even a high school understanding of biology knows that genotype does not necessarily equal phenotype. The environment plays a huge role in how genes are expressed. Going by genes, Jamie Lee Curtis should be a man, but she obviously isn't. Now, studies have been done that show when a pregnant woman is put under stress (like things that would be cause by overpopulation) her son is much more likely to turn out gay. No, I don't have the study at hand, but I do remember that it had to do with an increase (that's right homophobes, and INCREASE) in testosterone.

 

[zx13xz]

I know you said you were going to have to disagree. But you actually didn't. My point was, that there IS a scientific reason for homosexuality, but it is not in the genes, but rather the hormones during fetal development. They still don't get a choice, just as Jamie Lee Curtis didn't choose to be a female when her genotype said "XY". I think you misunderstood.

 

[Brock]

I have a sneaking suspicion that people's motivations for making gay marriages illegal has a less than noble root of saving their souls

.. done out of love for fellow man. Nothing sneaky about it. Since you threw around some Bible stuff, may as well tell you that we're also taught to speak the truth in love. Hence me jumping on this thread when it gravitated towards homosexuality being tied to DNA.