Florida governor signs welfare drug-screen measure

[pyrodemon915]

I think it's a good idea. If they are living off of other people to pay for their drugs, then they shouldn't be using drugs at all. I pay for everything I get, I don't go steal or ask people for money to support my habits. I work hard, I only think it's fair.

 

[pnut3844]

I think pnut is one of those republicans who doesn't give a shit about huge corporate chairmen taking million dollar lavish vacations with the money they get from tax payer bailouts, but gets angry over a poor person getting $250 a month who might spend $20 of that on drugs

No I think the AIG and wallstreet bailouts were bullshit as well. As for the poster who mentioned caffeine, its not a drug. You start calling it a drug you might as well say takeout food is a drug. We are talking about illegal substances what's so hard to understand about that? Its plain and simple you don't spend government aid money on illegal mind altering substances. I can't believe people are sticking up for the junkies who spend your hard earned money on drugs and not their kids. I didn't realize how liberal this site was until this post. I hope the rest of the states follow florida and pass this law. As broke as we are, it will reserve help for those who actually need it. What people do with their own money is at their discretion. But when you start accepting help from the government and tax paying citizens, it becomes another story. Judt like if your parents give you an allowance, and they find out your wasting it on drugs or other things they take it away, bc its their money. You can't get mad at them for your faults.

 

[qwe]

the worst part about this law is how removed from any sense of human empathy it is. many poor people can't afford a doctor and insurance, so if they are in severe debilitating pain, they have to acquire it on the black market. then, they get caught and are sentenced as "drug addicts."

i wonder what % of the illicit drug using population would be prescribed something like their drug of choice if they had money. further increase that % if we get rid of unnecessary taboos (e.g. we don't even prescribe diamorphine/heroin in the U.S., obviously not for any medical reason, but because of the *word* HEROIN)

the middle class, the lower class, journalists and the media... we've all turned our collective eyes away from the suffering and humanity of HUGE swathes of our population, and we've even constructed our cities and highways so that we see as little of the problem as possible.

I agree with you in principle but not in your analysis of the situation. The fact of the matter is if you are poor, including if you are a recent immigrant, you are eligible for Medicaid which covers all doctors’ bills and prescriptions in full.

If you are working class, or increasingly formerly middle class, and can’t afford your premiums, or if you have a little savings, or if you have a preexisting condition, or if you worked all your life and now can’t find a job, or if you are a senior who can’t afford supplemental insurance to your Medicare, there is no assistance available to you.

I think these people , who you are somehow blaming for something in your earlier post while defending illegal drug users, are the real victims of today's society.

it doesn't work out like that in real life, poopy. especially when harvard scientists have that estimate (45,000 per year).. the poor do not sleep in rosy comfy beds.

Poverty alone does not necessarily qualify someone for Medicaid.

the worst part about this law is how removed from any sense of human empathy it is. many poor people can't afford a doctor and insurance, so if they are in severe debilitating pain, they have to acquire it on the black market. then, they get caught and are sentenced as "drug addicts."

i wonder what % of the illicit drug using population would be prescribed something like their drug of choice if they had money. further increase that % if we get rid of unnecessary taboos (e.g. we don't even prescribe diamorphine/heroin in the U.S., obviously not for any medical reason, but because of the *word* HEROIN)

the middle class, the lower class, journalists and the media... we've all turned our collective eyes away from the suffering and humanity of HUGE swathes of our population, and we've even constructed our cities and highways so that we see as little of the problem as possible.

just quoting myself... stop the turning away...

do people get what they deserve? if you have to choose between spending on food and dental care, and you choose food because you're hungry, and then later you have enormous debt due to dental problems... do you just say "tough luck, you've made your choice"? no, it's not so black and white.

nor is the drug war, and the so called "junkies," who many here argue that they should "just stop using drugs if they want my welfare dollars.." what sort of thought process is going on there?

seriously? most are using for medical reasons. even if they aren't, taking them off the drug, if they have been on a high enough dose for a long enough time, could lead to suicides and people incapable of doing work (some will be stuck on methadone for their entire lives).

these are important long-term brain processes that we play with when we use drugs, and you can't tell someone "just quit, now"... it doesn't work that way. it needs to be approached as a medical issue, and it also needs to be approached *with* the addict.

 

[slimvictor]

As for the poster who mentioned caffeine, its not a drug. You start calling it a drug you might as well say takeout food is a drug. We are talking about illegal substances what's so hard to understand about that?

Let's check Wikipedia.

Caffeine
This article is about the stimulant drug. For other uses, see Caffeine (disambiguation).

Maybe you believe that only those substances that the government has deemed a public safety threat count as "drugs"?

Or maybe, somewhere inside your heart and mind, you can conceptualize the fact that the illegality of drugs is based primarily on historical accidents, as well as purposeful propaganda, and, more than anything else, on the economic considerations surrounding various chemicals.

If so, it is not right that (e.g.) cannabis is illegal while (e.g.) alcohol is illegal.

Is there some moral reason to discriminate against those that use cannabis, but not against those that use alcohol??
Since the pro- argument is essentially one of morality (what welfare recipients should do with the money they receive, based on moral obligation), I fail to see how you cannot consider this argument significant and relevant.

 

[pnut3844]

Let's check Wikipedia.


Maybe you believe that only those substances that the government has deemed a public safety threat count as "drugs"?

Or maybe, somewhere inside your heart and mind, you can conceptualize the fact that the illegality of drugs is based primarily on historical accidents, as well as purposeful propaganda, and, more than anything else, on the economic considerations surrounding various chemicals.

If so, it is not right that (e.g.) cannabis is illegal while (e.g.) alcohol is illegal.

Is there some moral reason to discriminate against those that use cannabis, but not against those that use alcohol??
Since the pro- argument is essentially one of morality (what welfare recipients should do with the money they receive, based on moral obligation), I fail to see how you cannot consider this argument significant and relevant.

like i give a shit what wiki says? anyone can write a wiki page that doesnt prove a damn thing. yes i agree pot should be legal as i said earlier. caffeine is not a damn drug

 

[PendulumAM]

and what about false positives? my ex boyfriend tested positive for cocaine during a pre-trial release drug test when we both know for a fact he never touched the stuff. taking diet pills can make you test positive for amphetamines, making some chick who took some pills to lose weight look like a meth addict. over the counter meds and having liver disease or diabetes can all potentially cause a false positive. what if someone accidentally eats their roommates pot brownie because he/she didn't know there was weed in it?

and do you really think the state would put in the time and money to go over every positive test result that someone contested? Florida cant afford to do the more expensive gas chromatography test for everyone who says that their false positive is wrong. when I got my wisdom teeth out in December, I was prescribed Amoxicillan, which apparently can make you test positive for coke. how many other people do you think know that? if they tested positive, do you really think the tester would be like, "have you been prescribed amixicillan?" no, they will just log the testee as being positive for coke, and there goes all hope.
so even if you are against people who are taking the money from their welfare check and spending it on illegal drugs, are you really willing to punish the truly innocent too? if you are, then you have the mindset of "id rather punish an innocent man then let a guilty one go free" which is REALLY fucked.

 

[poopymcpoop]

and what about false positives? my ex boyfriend tested positive for cocaine during a pre-trial release drug test when we both know for a fact he never touched the stuff. taking diet pills can make you test positive for amphetamines, making some chick who took some pills to lose weight look like a meth addict. over the counter meds and having liver disease or diabetes can all potentially cause a false positive. what if someone accidentally eats their roommates pot brownie because he/she didn't know there was weed in it?

Your boyfriend was lying to you.

 

[Love In Vein]

I know this is going to be a very unpopular view.

But I have to agree with this measure.

And here is why:

I lived in a state with taxpayer funded homeless shelters. And the deal for many of the people living in those residences was that those who were there because they had lost everything as a result of drug addiction were compelled to attend AA/NA meetings on the first floor of the building.

Well, here is where it got interesting. After NYC crafted their there draconian drug penalties, many of those dealers realized they could come to my state and peddle their wares and yes, they would have to serve time if caught, but it would be a blink compared to what they would face in NYC for multiple counts/arrests.

So the people *I* was paying to put up for would simply wait until the second of the month, go to the nearby bars, by crack and heroin from the dealers from NYC whom stood out like a sore thumb being black and wearing gold and platinum chains in souped up cars with tinted windows in an area where the population was over 95% white or Hispanic or Native American.

And not only would they take the money these people got in welfare, but they would even accept food stamps.

I wasn't even there for a year and a I knew three people who had overdosed and one who died shortly after I left living in those buildings.

Look, I'm all for everyone doing as they will. But why should I be compelled to pay for some crooked system like that?

The entire set up was ridiculous.

And I've been all over projects in DC. They are absolutely INFESTED by crack cocaine and PCP.

So I absolutely agree that that the state should do some sort of real drug treatment or whatever. BUT that doesn't mean I don't believe the state shouldn't also help out these people develop job skills and get out of their situations. I don't want to see anyone thrown out on the streets, but working tax payers shouldn't pay for this. I'm therefore paying for the DEA and the local police to enforce these laws, a judicial system to put violators through, a prison/parole system AND then a system where these people are now being supported by me on top of all of that?

Even if drugs were regulated, if you're not getting on your feet and not even trying, why should I be compelled to house you? At the very least, if people want to live like that, that's fine. But it should be a conditional to SOME extent. There's all of these crazy Tea Party people crying about how the foreigners are taking up our jobs and education and what not. Well, here's a condition of getting help and to relieve the penal system... put these people in the jobs that "Americans don't want". And if they continue to screw up, well, sorry, but what?

I used to have an acquaintance who's father's brother was a heroin/crack addict. Well, after he got out of prison and rehab, his brother reluctantly gave him room and board, rent free. And of course, he quickly went back to his old ways and began using again. So he's picking up a welfare check and blowing through that money within a week, board and food free. The brother tried to help as much as he could, and nothing worked. So finally he kicked him out. How much should one endure or have to go through and enable his brother to kill himself in his home, while having violent crack dealers visit the home for deliveries?

It's the same principal. Why should I chip in to help someone who has had chance after chance after chance and still doesn' get it and doesn't ever want to improve or step up in their lives?

And again, all that is being proposed is that STATE subsidized housing require residents to take urine test. I think that would be a waste unless they had some sort of documented history of drug abuse in the first place. But that is not to say these people are going to just be put out on the streets.

There are non-profit organizations out there that will do something about it. And if you believe so strongly that these people deserve to fail over and over and over, you can write off a tax deductible check to said non-profit organizations. Or is it different when you pay out of your own pocket as opposed to just blindly paying more taxes on more wasteful programs. It's bad enough I have to fund our globe trotting foreign policy of war and aggression and "nation building".

As far as I'm concerned, the ENTIRE system needs to be refurbished.

 

[AEB]

like i give a shit what wiki says? anyone can write a wiki page that doesnt prove a damn thing. yes i agree pot should be legal as i said earlier. caffeine is not a damn drug

Caffeine is a bitter substance found in coffee, tea, soft drinks, chocolate, kola nuts, and certain medicines. It has many effects on the body's metabolism, including stimulating the central nervous system.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/caffeine.html

The FDA says that caffeine is both a drug and a food additive.

Google the sentence and you'll find the pdf from FDA's website.

 

[Love In Vein]

and what about false positives? my ex boyfriend tested positive for cocaine during a pre-trial release drug test when we both know for a fact he never touched the stuff. taking diet pills can make you test positive for amphetamines, making some chick who took some pills to lose weight look like a meth addict. over the counter meds and having liver disease or diabetes can all potentially cause a false positive. what if someone accidentally eats their roommates pot brownie because he/she didn't know there was weed in it?

There is absolutely nothing out there that will give a false positive for cocaine.

Either his sample was mixed, he used something that was laced with cocaine, or he is lying. Those are the only three choices.

Tell him to have his lawyer have the sample retested if he honestly never used cocaine, which I sincerely doubt.

I'm sorry to tell you, but I've been involved in the drug world for well over 15 years. People lie, especially about things such as cheating and drug use and other things generally frowned down upon.

It's amazing. If you go to jail, virtually NOBODY has EVER done ANYTHING. It's amazing. At least 90% of the people incarcerated are actually all innocent. Even the ones who are caught with contraband during shake downs... "IT'S NOT MINE! I DIDN'T PUT IT THERE! I HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT GOT UNDER MY MATTRESS IN MY CELL!"

It's like there's a tooth fairy who magically plants contraband and gives false positive urine tests out there!

MAN, that's not my bag of weed! Just because you found it in my wallet when you were searching me after pulling me over for driving erratically! And how did that bowl get under the seat? IT MUST HAVE BEEN THE PERSON I LOANED MY CAR TO LAST NIGHT!

You seriously need to wise up.... I'm sorry to break it to you, but even the person closest to you will lie to save their ass. Because they don't want to lose/disappoint/lose support of their significant, family member or whatever OR give up the habit that those closest to them would disapprove of.

 

[qwe]

like i give a shit what wiki says? anyone can write a wiki page that doesnt prove a damn thing. yes i agree pot should be legal as i said earlier. caffeine is not a damn drug

1) not just anybody can edit the wiki page and get away with it. there are great wiki pages with reputable sources, and wiki's error rate is on par with encyclopedia britannica.

2) caffeine, like methamphetamine, cocaine, adderall(amphetamine), ritalin(methylphenidate), increases the number of norepinephrine molecules between the synapses of many brain cells.

whether something is a drug is a good question... the term drug does need to be defined. but, with any reasonable and/or widely held definition, caffeine is definitely a "drug." it includes tolerance and withdrawal and nervous-system side effects.

 

[qwe]

There is absolutely nothing out there that will give a false positive for cocaine.

except for some antibiotics, and certain diseases related to the kidneys or liver, iirc (don't quote me).

never say never, especially in biology.

 

[Solide]

like i give a shit what wiki says? anyone can write a wiki page that doesnt prove a damn thing. yes i agree pot should be legal as i said earlier. caffeine is not a damn drug

Are you seriously saying caffeine is not a drug? Or do you mean not a 'drug' because it's not fun and weak?

And wikipedia is very reliable, especially the scientific topics. The "don't trust wikipedia because anyone can edit it" argument is mostly for political and controversial topics where someone's bias can influence the legitimacy and truthfullness of an article. The scientific pages are usually written by science-nerds (who else is gonna make time and effort for that) so they're pretty accurate.

More ontopic:

I guess Senator Scott really loves drugtests. Apart from drugtesting poor people, didn't he also introduce legislation to drugtest government employees? He's even co-owner of a chain of clinics that offer drugtesting. Now that's a man who likes some good ol' fashion drugtesting.

Though to be honest, while he says 'his' clinics won't be providing this service, I think it's kinda fishy he transferred his stocks to a trust under his wife's name. But I wouldn't dare to doubt Senator Scott's noble intentions. Surely a politician wouldn't be dishonest to make some sweet sweet money.

 

[Mora Fiend]

except for some antibiotics, and certain diseases related to the kidneys or liver, iirc (don't quote me).

never say never, especially in biology.

See, this is the reason that I love this website, I always thought that there was no substance that would cross as a false positive for cocaine, and now I know.

Ta for that info Qwe!

 

[CheapHighMan]

this is the worst argument ever. for one, learn to spell and i might take you seriously. another thing, movies, air conditioning, light bills, none of that shit kills you or tears families apart. dont even give me that left wing shit man. and youre a mod? yes alcohol and tobacco shouldnt be legal, no doubt. but there is no use crying over spilt milk. if i wanted my tax dollars to be spent on drugs, i would be a fucking crack head. i would even go so far as to say drug test for food stamps, because addicts sell their food stamps for drug money. this is a damn great idea, even if the real reason is to cut back funding. save welfare for the people who actually use it, rather than wasting it on drugs. take that left wing, nut job theory of yours elsewhere. it wont hold up. come up with something better and try again. so its fine when you have to piss in a cup to get a job, but when people want to use money taken out of my check that i had to earn by pissing clean and use it for drugs of their own, oh its unconstitutional. fuck that. that money came out of my check, so you're god damned right i have a say in it. welfare is for families who need it to help their family out, not for addicts to get free drugs. plain and fucking simple. liberals such as yourself piss me off, even more so when they cant justify their point of view or even educate themselves enough to fucking spell.

First off stop crying because you gotta piss in a cup to get your leisure money. Second who gives a fuck how he/she spells it's the point you should be paying attention to and third if you took five minutes to educate yourself and attempt to sound out the words you would understand that they backed up all there statements.

Can you even justify your point. The only thing I was able to pick out of your screeds and blabbering was that you couldn't even use grammer properly. Who's uneducated now!


Originally Posted by pnut3844

like i give a shit what wiki says? anyone can write a wiki page that doesnt prove a damn thing. yes i agree pot should be legal as i said earlier. caffeine is not a damn drug

Also calm the fuck down. I can here you screaming from here. Second Caffeine is a drug... Caffeine has withdrawel and effects your Nervouse System and Brain primalry because it's a GABA antagonist.
At least wiki cited it's sources. You can't even back up One of your statements.

ASSHOOOLLEEE

 

[23536]

The scientific pages are usually written by science-nerds

many of whom are Bluelighters

 

[qwe]

Caffeine has withdrawel and effects your Nervouse System and Brain primalry because it's a GABA antagonist.

adenosine antagonist*

 

[23536]

I'd like to dedicate a song to this excellent thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syK7MHVLhEc

1st of tha Month by Bone Thugs-N-Harmony

Wake up, wake up, wake up it's the 1st of the month
So get up, get up, get up so cash your checks and get up

 

[Love In Vein]

except for some antibiotics, and certain diseases related to the kidneys or liver, iirc (don't quote me).

never say never, especially in biology.

When you're on probation, they do a preliminary test. If it test positive, which is possible in the cases you're giving, it's given a second test. And in the confirmation test, there is simply no way. It will detect ONLY specific metabolites.

I used to work for Qwest Diagnostics. Believe me, you can dupe a test, but you can't dupe a positive when they do a secondary test.

If they did not test the sample twice (which has it's ups as well, as most drug metabolites are undetectable after a certain amount of days) the lawyer could have a field day and demand some other type of test if the parole/probation officer tried to violate the person in question.

However, that could be bad, because the lawyer could demand some other form of test. Now, if the parole/probation officer is not that intelligent or on a budget, they could do a saliva or sweat test, which would be clean by now. Or they could do a hair test, in which case the person is definitely going to be violated if they had used within X amount of days.

But the probation/parole officer and judge also have a lot of discretion in many cases and aren't necessarily obliged to correct anything.

As well, if it's a first violation, generally the penalty will PROBABLY be minimal.. The justice system just doesn't have enough money to lock everyone up for a minor violation.

Either way, I'm sill betting that the guy is a liar.

And he really needs to consult a lawyer rather than having his girlfriend ask us on BL like it's going to do anything. What, is the person in question going to show their parole/probation officer "oh, look at these post on BlueLight.org, it could be this, this or that!"

 

[Love In Vein]

I agree with you in principle but not in your analysis of the situation. The fact of the matter is if you are poor, including if you are a recent immigrant, you are eligible for Medicaid which covers all doctors’ bills and prescriptions in full

Are you talking about in America?

If you are eligible for Medicaid, you are are getting second rate medical treatment. Good look finding someone who accepts it. You will have better luck at a walk in clinic.

And no, your prescriptions, doctor's bills and such are NOT paid in full.

As you obviously have absolutely NO idea what it takes to become eligible for Medicaid/Medicare/Social Security.

It's a ridiculous system, like Welfare. Because it is nearly impossible to get out of. You're stuck in limbo.

Once you lose your benefits (because you get a job or what not), say you lose it again. Then you have to start the process ALL OVER AGAIN. Which takes MONTHS.

There's a reason why so many people just stay on Welfare. It's not because they want to. Talk to anyone in the projects or trailer parks. There is a reason why drug use, unemployment and such are so rampant.

I had a debilitating injury a few years ago. It's ridiculous. I get X amount a month, my prescriptions and doctors appoints are NOT paid in full. I can only make X amount a month with a job (which is some RIDICULOUSLY) low amount or you're off and have to start over.

Even to do the pay down to get on everything, I had to get rid of all of my possessions and savings and basically had to have help in hiring a lawyer to help me shield my assets. I also had to cash in a LOT of bonds prematurely.

And since the "system" has been so flawed and tried to fuck me over, I've been doing it back and taking my time going back to college and finishing up with a degree I should have obtained years ago and making undocumented money so I can leave this county after I obtain a degree.

If you have not been there, you have NO idea.