Exposing Children to Nudism/Naturism Inappropriate/Dangerous?

[sunday.bird]

A bunch of people in a CEPS thread (including @Las Veghost grower) criticized me for taking my daughter to a clothing optional hippy festival because she had a couple of conversations with a nudist that was camped next to us.

I took her there because it's my favourite place in the world. She's four years old. We didn't let her wander around by herself. She was by our side the whole time.

Apparently people think this is super dangerous for my daughter, but I genuinely don't understand how?

I'd say about 5% of people there are nudists. Lots of people get naked when they swim in the river, but most don't walk around nude all the time.

There are lots of families there. I've been going there for 15 years. I know many people who grew up at this festival. There are multiple generations there. None of them have ever mentioned anybody doing anything inappropriate.

LVG was saying the harm outweighs the benefit. I disagree. The benefits are huge... and I don't perceive any harm.

There are predators everywhere. Just because someone isn't wearing pants, doesn't make them a pedo or a groomer.

I'm in the minority here, apparently. Most people seem to think that the natural human form is traumatic, even when there is no grooming or molesting going on.

Why is it better for kids to see violent films than see an adult penis?

I genuinely don't understand.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

The human body unclothed is beautiful and is really who we are. Clothes are nice and they adorn us and keep us warm but the nude body was made to be admired.

Children that are accompanied by their Parents that attend functions where nudity is observed ( beaches, festivals, camps ) are perfectly well balanced and there is no " harm " being thrust upon them. There are many nude beaches down in Florida ( ask me how I know ) and they are all family friendly. When children want to know what that thing is a penis is an appropriate response. Same with breasts and vaginas. Children that grow up with nudity aren't any different than children that grow up never seeing it. I would venture a guess that children that grew up around nudity and it was explained to them properly are probably more well adjusted than kids that got told some fairy tale about the human anatomy. Or were shamed when they asked their Parents what those things were on a woman's chest and were told they were balloons. Or that a penis was a hairy hot dog.

Nudity around ones own children in the company of their Parents whether at home or at the beach is perfectly acceptable.

This thread isn't about pedos who stalk and rape children and then usually end up killing them. And I don't want this thread to go that route. This is about adult nudity around ones own kids either in their own home or at family friendly events.

The reason that so many kids grow up ashamed of their bodies and not understanding the human anatomy is because their parents told them too many Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy stories.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

The argument re: violent films is terrible, we control the age at which children see those.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking kids to a nudist place though, my parents used to take me to the nudist beach when I was a kid.

 

[sunday.bird]

I don't think it's terrible.

There is violence in a lot of children's TV shows and video games.

In terms of graphic violence - sure - we control what age they see them but we also control what age they are exposed to nudity. Right?

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

*facepalm

 

[JackARoe]

I only read a little of the other thread. But I had a few thoughts. No I don't think nudity is harmful. However even in scriptures there is an embarrasment attributed to it by humans. Adam and Eve ate the apple and realized they were nude and used a fig leaf as the story goes to cover up. The fig leag is used in the same way that people who are embarrassed by being nude. The notion to "cover it up".

I mean I like cloths. I like feeling secure. There is a use for boxer shorts as well as tighty whities. But there are people that do get embarrased being nude and others that don't. So then we get laws, no shoes no shirt no service. Understandable. I bet even people completely comfortable with nudity would not want people completely naked in a supermarket all day everyday. To me it is like smoking. At one point you could smoke inside office buildings. It infringed on non smokers and a compromise was done. A smoking section. So I know there are nude beaches in the US, Northern CA, but it is sectioned and well signed for the people that want that.

Here is the thing and I would say this about any topic. Why force feed it to a side that thinks different? My personal opinion is if kids drag shows are causing such uncomfortability to a group of people maybe back off a bit. But I think the same with guns. If a group of people are that upset then back off and tighten up back ground checks for people. (NOT take away guns) But what we have is force fed drag shows for kids and force fed anyone can buy any gun at anytime. There is no damn compromise. Just shove shit at people is the motto. Like it or lump it. But we did not do that with smoking. We compromised.

I think it is totally ok to be comfortable with nudity as well as uncomfortable. I am both. So keep it sectioned and signed. And have respect for people that think different. I realize as humans fighting is more fun. And when it comes to kids we have to double the concern and think hard. I do not think that what I think is unreasonable. There has to be a common understanding.

 

[negrogesic]

I don't see a problem, but I think it might run the risk of sexualizing or speeding up the sexualization of a 4 year old boy (compared to a 4 year old girl, who is very unlikely to view it through a sexual lense). At least, I know I would have viewed it that way, in part. The extent to which that is a bad thing, I don't know, but it definitely may have effects.

But yeah, the reaction you're hearing seems to be related to the recent mass hysteria about pedophiles lurking everywhere or being somehow more prominent than they once were, and this hysteria seems to be strongly linked to right leaning political ideology and this climate of paranoia and conspiracy that conservatives have cooked up for themselves.

Again though, as a 4 year old boy all that nudity would have left an impression on me. Would there be negative implications I don't know. But I was already pretty charged up that way naturally anyhow, maybe other 4 year olds were different. Heck, at 4 years old I was trying to feel up our baby sitter, I think im just wired that way.

 

[sunday.bird]

@JackARoe

I am totally fine with people not exposing their kids to nudity. I don't judge. I understand it... When I first went to this festival, the nudity was confronting. I'm not that well endowed and I'm not a model by any stretch of the imagination, so it took a lot of courage for me to go naked. I had to break through a lot of barriers.

This was 15 years ago. I didn't have kids back then, but other people's kids saw me naked... and, yeah, that was a bit weird at first.

I didn't go nude much this time because it was too cold this year and - also - I've broken through those barriers enough already for the time being. I'm not 100% comfortable wandering around with my dick out, but I've made a lot of progress over the years and it has been super beneficial for me.

Hopefully, my daughter isn't going to have those barriers.

As for Adam & Eve, just look at Islamic women who have to cover up pretty much everything.

Nudity is one extreme and niqabs/hijabs are another. It seems obvious to me which one is healthier psychologically.

Pretty sure sexual assault rates are much higher in Islamic societies.

The more you restrict sexuality and nudity, the more it manifests in horrible ways.

I suspect Catholic priests wouldn't fuck kids if they could just get their rocks off with the nuns or something.

I don't know about the states, but toddlers run around nude on the beach in Australia. Not nude beaches. I mean normal beaches. Then they get to a certain age and they're not allowed to be nude anywhere in the presence of anyone except their parents. Then, not even their parents... This - along with a lot of other shit we do to kids - is super confusing.

I'm not suggesting kids run around naked everywhere. I agree with you about the supermarket. I don't want the society I live in to go nude. Clothes are practical. They keep you warm. They protect your skin from the sun and scratches, etc.

I don't disagree with much (or anything) that you said. I'm just rambling.

 

[sunday.bird]

I think it might run the risk of sexualizing or speeding up the sexualization of a 4 year old boy (compared to a 4 year old girl, who is very unlikely to view it through a sexual lense)

I'm not sure I agree about boys vs girls.
Are men more sexual than women?
Are boys more sexual than girls?

What do you mean exactly by sexualizing?
Do you mean that kids will become sexually active earlier in life... or simply have sexual thoughts?

 

[foodcrisis]

i don't really see any thing wrong with bringing kids to nudist events. i was going to write this in the other thread because i felt like everyone was attacking the poster that brought their kid to the event.

i remember when i was a small child my mother took a bath with me and that kind of effected me, why she had hair there. i guess i knew she was different cause she had boobs, but i always remembered that bath. i'm not sure if i have much of an opinion on it... my father used to walk around the house in his tighty whitey underwear in front of my baby sister all while she grew up. i thought he was kind of a perv at the time, but i guess he was just letting her know the difference between men and women. i think it's probably more funny than shocking to children. it just seems weird. i don't think it's really a problem. it's part of life

 

[JackARoe]

@sunday.bird . I totally agree with what you posted. I do get it. And it seems you do have some boundaries about this. So I am unsure where the other thread went off the rails.

If someone is getting very upset about this with their kids then the boundaries should help. Most of this is not force fed. Just strong opinions from strong thinking people.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

It's healthy. End of.

 

[negrogesic]

I'm not sure I agree about boys vs girls.
Are men more sexual than women?
Are boys more sexual than girls?

Yeah, I definitely think boys and men have more thoughts of a sexual nature more frequently than girls and women, respectively.

What do you mean exactly by sexualizing?
Do you mean that kids will become sexually active earlier in life... or simply have sexual thoughts?

Not necessarily any quicker to be sexually active, but perhaps more sexual thoughts. Or perhaps the reverse. Early memories and experiences can have profound effects on how one views the world. Not saying that the effect would be bad, but simply that there would be an effect inevitably since we as humans are incredibly sensitive to inputs, especially at that age. My guess is that the effect would be more profound on boys. I could be wrong on all accounts, these are just conjectures

 

[JackARoe]

One bad apple spoils the bunch. I get the counterpoints too. We want to protect children against the sharks while at the same time teach them to not be ashamed of their bodies. What a topic. Humans can suck as much as we want to trust them.

 

[sunday.bird]

@negrogesic

I agree and disagree. Men are more sexual but is that natural or is that something we condition?

If you give women a totally safe space where they aren't going to be judged as a slut or whatever, they're just as freaky and horny as men IMO. I'm into some pretty kinky shit and every single woman I've opened up to has been just as kinky.

From what I gather from my experiences talking to ladies (and studies/opinion polls, etc) women are often unsatisfied - relative to men - because sex is socially male-centric. This influences sexual motivation in women which influences our perception of "how sexual" the female gender is.

Women have less shame in terms of nudity and more shame in terms of sex, I think.

My daughter slaps her vagina. I was surprised when she started doing this, but (having done some research) it is actually a normal developmental thing. Kids of all ages (and genders) masturbate.

Dads are supposed to be terrified of their teenage daughters having sex but relatively indifferent when it comes to their sons. This must have an effect, as you say.

There's an enormous amount of subconscious shit we absorb from the moment we're born.

I definitely think boys and men have more thoughts of a sexual nature more frequently than girls and women, respectively.

Even your sentence^ would have an effect on boys and girls if the happen to read it.

We constantly reinforce the idea that males are more sexual.

Fortunately, we are breaking down that sort of thinking and women are becoming more confident with their sexuality.

Not necessarily any quicker to be sexually active, but perhaps more focused on. Or perhaps the reverse. Early memories and experiences can have profound effects on how one views the world. Not saying that the effect would be bad, but simply that there would be an effect inevitably since we as humans are incredibly sensitive to inputs, especially at that age. My guess is that the effect would be more profound on boys. I could be wrong on all accounts, these are just conjectures

I think it has a hugely positive impact.

The kids that grew up in this festival are among the most confident and well adjusted kids I've ever met.

Confest - Australia's leading Alternative Lifestyle Festival

Australia's leading Alternative Lifestyle Festival

confest.org.au

 

[sunday.bird]

One bad apple spoils the bunch. I get the counterpoints too. We want to protect children against the sharks while at the same time teach them to not be ashamed of their bodies. What a topic. Humans can suck as much as we want to trust them.

Yeah, I totally get the fear too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not naive.

I'm wary of predators at this festival in the same way I'm wary of predators in everyday life.

Some parents at this festival are naive. They let their kids wander off by themselves. I've seen naked kids (three / four years old) walking around unattended. That's crazy to me... but I wouldn't let a three / four year old walk around fully clothed in Melbourne either.

At the risk of sounding naive, I'm honestly not sure the risk is super high even with unattended kids. There are eyes everywhere and everyone looks out for each other.

It sounds like a prime location to prey upon children, but I don't think there has ever been an instance of that happening and the festival has been running since the 1970's.

*I'm aware of the legal side of this festival because I know people who run it and I'm currently in the process of joining that crew.

There have been some "unwanted advances" between adults but that's to be expected when everybody is nude and (often) on drugs.

I'm also aware of the financial state of the organisation (Down to Earth) that runs this festival. They don't have a lot of money. They rely on volunteers. The festival is also uninsured. If one kid was sexually abused, the festival would go bankrupt.

It's possible there has been an incident. I don't know for sure.

I think you're probably more likely to have an issue leaving your kids in the hands of babysitters or church staff or doctors or teachers (all of which have extremely high rates of abuse).

I don't trust anyone.

Family members are also extremely likely to abuse children, statistically. I don't even like the idea of leaving my kids with my brother.

Babysitters freak me out the most, though. I would never hire some random person with no qualifications to look after my kids. Doesn't matter if they're wearing clothes when I walk out the door. Clothes can come off.

I protect my daughter like she's the Holy Grail.

 

[JackARoe]

At the risk of sounding naive, I'm honestly not sure the risk is super high even with unattended kids. There are eyes everywhere and everyone looks out for each other.

That makes sense. A heightened awareness because of the nature of the event. That actually makes me feel better.

I should shut up though. I do not have kids so I have to defer to you all on the process of raising. I am a Godfather 3 times (uncle Jack was asked a lot and I declined after the first 3 God kids) I do not want to insult, just throw out an opinion. Yet I do not have kids. I do think it is up to the parents.

Being up to the parents also needs responsibility. A slightly different topic but I have a friend in Northern California that let his 14 year old daughter transition to a male. Here is where my age and crankiness comes in. I "believe" if I were a parent my kid would have to be 18 to do that. 14 may be too young but what do I know. I just feel why rush.

But transitioning is a different topic than nudity. But it is in the same topic zone as what parents let their kids do before they are 18. And this topic is kids, parents and nudity.

 

[negrogesic]

I agree and disagree. Men are more sexual but is that natural or is that something we condition?

It's a natural thing and is well-studied, https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/bul0000366. The driver is of course testosterone. Men on average have around 20x the testosterone levels that women have, and when supraphysiological doses of testosterone are given to women, their sex drives increase significantly.

If you give women a totally safe space where they aren't going to be judged as a slut or whatever, they're just as freaky and horny as men IMO. I'm into some pretty kinky shit and every single woman I've opened up to has been just as kinky.

This is just my observation but I feel like women are perhaps kinkier than men on average (although for alot of women's their kinkiness seems to stay tucked away as fantasies and not acted on). I suspect this may also be hormone mediated, particularly estrogen and progesterone. But doubt that has subject ever been studied

Again as far as the nudity goes, not saying its a good or bad thing, just saying that the experience would likely be more profound to young males than young females. The effect it has I'm sure is variable and based on the individual.

 

[sunday.bird]

@negrogesic

Are they potentially measuring female sexuality in male terms?

Men are certainly not 20x thornier than women. I dont believe that.

As for kinkiness, if that's female sexuality (estrogen) how do you measure that against Male sexuality (testosterone)?

I tend to think at our most unrepressed we are all full kink. But I agree women are more likely to be unrepressed / open minded (than straight guys at least).

@JackARoe

You don't have to shut up because you don't have kids. You dont have to have kids IMO to have an opinion about how you think kids should be raised.

I, too, would be very opposed to my daughter transitioning before the age of 18. I suspect the main reason parents dont object too much is because they dont want their kids to hate them. That's what I'm afraid of. I hope that day never comes, but I'll try to be smart with my approach.

 

[Elizabeth669]

Here is an interesting point regarding sexual development and shame...: all children play with their bodies and discover the pleasure parts pretty much from birth. Boy children get erections from the get go, but the ability to orgasm doesn't GENERALLY kick in until just pre adolescence/puberty. Then comes that classic surprise moment so many lads are familiar with! Girls can orgasm much, MUCH earlier, from very, VERY young indeed. So, when children get admonished for touching their genitals, boys learn that their genitals are 'naughty' or bad, and girls learn, that in addition, their entire sexual response is 'naughty' or bad. The negative programming is there for both, but you can see how the life impact on sexual response goes deeper and can become more tectonically damaging for girls, or at least have huge impact in sexual interactions, response and sense of self worth/identity, etc, etc. Does this not explain a great deal?! So, before we even get to the differences in biological drive, we have the underlying psychology.

I feel the avoidance of shame regarding natural responses and the human body is vital for a well rounded mind set and sense of self. Predators can be anywhere, common sense is the best defence.