Experimental Use of Dermorphin to Treat Chronic Fatigue Syndrome — Some Questions

[Hip]

I recently read some forums posts (see here and here) by an individual named Jox who used the Amazonian Indian medicine kambo to successfully treat his severe chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). Jox was often bedbound for months with the fatigue and malaise of CFS, but astoundingly, within 2 weeks of taking kambo, he was back to near full health, and remains that way provided he takes kambo once a week. Bear in mind that CFS is generally an incurable condition (and one that is often life-destroying), so this is an incredible result.

Kambo comes from the waxy secretions of the giant leaf frog (Phyllomedusa bicolor) found in the Amazon, and this medicine is usually administered by putting a dab of kambo onto small burns made on your skin, where it is absorbed into the bloodstream.

I myself have CFS, and I would like to know which of the active components in kambo are responsible for this chronic fatigue syndrome cure.

Kambo contains a number of active peptides:

Dermorphin — a potent mu-opioid receptor agonist.
Deltorphin — a very potent delta-opioid receptor agonist.
Phyllomedusin — a tachykinin which affects the salivary glands, tear ducts, intestines, and bowels; it contracts the smooth muscles, and contributes to violent purging.
Phyllokinin (and phyllomedusin) — potent blood vessel dilators that also increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier.
Phyllocaerulein — which stimulates the adrenal cortex and the pituitary gland, causes a fall in blood pressure accompanied by tachycardia, and has a potent action on the gastrointestinal smooth muscle, and stimulates gastric, biliary and pancreatic secretions.
Sauvagine — causes a long lasting fall in blood pressure, intense tachycardia, and stimulation the adrenal cortex.
Adenoregulin — acts on the adenosine receptors.
Dermaseptin — a potent antimicrobial for both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria.

My initial hunch is that dermorphin and/or deltorphin may be playing a large part in this apparently effective kambo treatment for CFS. This hunch is based on the fact that a low-dose naltrexone protocol, which boosts opioid receptor function, benefits CFS. There is also other evidence that suggests that low endorphin and low opioid receptor function is involved in CFS.

What I am going to do is to try taking dermorphin, to see whether pure dermorphin is an effective treatment for my CFS. I have already obtained 5,000 mcg of dermorphin from a chemical supplier (purity ≥ 95 percent), and I plan to take small doses of this dermorphin intranasally.


I have several questions about taking dermorphin, and would like to get some advice from people on this forum. These questions are as follows:

(1) I read a couple of dermorphin trip reports (here and here) where individuals took 500 mcg of dermorphin intranasally in order to get a psychoactive effect from this drug. In my case, I don't really want the psychoactive effects, so I would like to take a lower dose of dermorphin that is below the threshold for any major mental effects.

Does anyone know roughly what intranasal dose of dermorphin would be below the threshold for psychoactive effects? I am assuming something like 50 mcg of dermorphin intranasally should be without any significant mental effects. My idea is to take this low sub-psychoactive dose on a daily basis, in order to (hopefully) obtain the medicinal benefits, without getting the mental effects.

(2) To take dermorphin intranasally, what I want to do is mix my 5,000 mcg of dermorphin powder with some other inert powder, in a ratio of 1000:1, so that 50 mg of this mixture will contain 50 mcg of dermorphin. This then makes it easier to weigh out doses for snorting. So my question here is: what is a good inert powder to use for this purpose, that will not degrade or react with this rather delicate dermorphin peptide?

(3) When I bought my dermorphin, on the product information note I received from the chemical supplier, it says: "Store peptide in DRY form at 0–5ºC. For best results and reproducibility, rehydrate peptide just before use. Do not attempt to weigh out smaller portions. Do not refreeze any unused portions".

Does anyone know why it says "Do not attempt to weigh out smaller portions. Do not refreeze any unused portions."? Is this because once you open the sealed vial of dermorphin, it lets in humidity, and this moisture then degrades the dermorphin powder? I know that dermorphin is much less stable in water.

I am currently storing my dermorphin in its seal vial in the freezer (temperature around –18ºC), and when I open the sealed dermorphin vial and mix the dermorphin with an inert powder, I am going to put the powder mixture back in the freezer for storage. Will this be OK, do you think? Or will my dermorphin degrade because of moisture exposure?

 

[sekio]

provided he takes kambo once a week

Given the experience (which is apparently a harrowing and painful experience few would ever call pleasurable) and the reccomended method of ingesting kambo (via burns on the skin) I would think that this is very, very unsustainable.

I don't actually know about dermorphin being intranasally bioavailiable. Most peptides are only very poorly absorbed by non-IV routes because there are enzymes in your body for destroying protiens.

Does anyone know roughly what intranasal dose of dermorphin would be below the threshold for psychoactive effects?

No, I don't think anyone's ever estblished that level. I have a feeling the strong mental f/x of dermorphin play a part though - a bit like ibogaine I would expect it would be much less useful if you only took threshold doses.

Does anyone know why it says "Do not attempt to weigh out smaller portions. Do not refreeze any unused portions."?

Freeze-thaw cycles will eventually destroy the protien, and exposure to air/the environment will speed degradation. Usually protiens are stored in an inert gas and at at least -10 for long-term sotrage. It shouldn't actually hurt to weigh it out, but the intention here is likely that you'd dilute the whole thing into a soluton for your cell assays or whatever, all at once, and use that stock solution up.

Honestly - I would not play with dermorphin if you paid me to. I would definitely not be taking it every week.

 

[Hip]

Thanks very much for your reply Sekio.

Given the experience (which is apparently a harrowing and painful experience few would ever call pleasurable) and the reccomended method of ingesting kambo (via burns on the skin) I would think that this is very, very unsustainable.

Absolutely, I certainly don't have the courage to go through this kambo experience, which involves violent purging (instant profuse vomiting and diarrhea together — though there are no psychoactive effects with kambo, and the trip is over within 30 minutes). This is why I want to try to figure out which chemical component(s) is responsible for the beneficial effects of kambo. Plus for me there is a scientific interest in the mechanism of action.

Incidentally, I suspect it is mainly the phyllomedusin and phyllocaerulein components of kambo that cause the violent purging, and without these, I expect no purging will arise. No such physical effects have been reported in the dermorphin trip reports I have seen.

What concerns me the most are the reports of psychiatric disturbances while taking strong doses of dermorphin for recreational purposes. I most definitely don't want to provoke any psychiatric disturbances, so I will only take a low dose of dermorphin.

I would not play with dermorphin if you paid me to. I would definitely not be taking it every week.

Kambo itself is regularly used by Amazonian Indians not only as a medicine, but as a stamina-giving tonic taken before hunting. In these Indians, there appear to be no adverse effects from long-term kambo taking, at least when administered by the skin burn method.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

I would take this report with a shovel worth of salt, reading the first page alone made my pseudoscience meter explode:

With kambô, we have the opportunity to wake up the body to its full natural potential. The people who
regularly receive this ‘vaccine’ do not get sick and have plenty of energy. Restoring a natural balance, it
prevents the onset of complaints induced by viruses. Even cancer does not have a chance to grow, in some
cases. For the best results, it is advisable to receive kambô regularly

Not saying that you might not be on to something, but there are plenty of biases in this and its shamanistic bush medicine. I've done more than my fair share of research on the topic as far as Cree medicine goes, but most of it is quite literally song and dance which plays a massive role via the placebo effect.

 

[Hip]

I would take this report with a shovel worth of salt, reading the first page alone made my pseudoscience meter explode:

Not saying that you might not be on to something, but there are plenty of biases in this and its shamanistic bush medicine. I've done more than my fair share of research on the topic as far as Cree medicine goes, but most of it is quite literally song and dance which plays a massive role via the placebo effect.

I know what you mean by your pseudoscience meter going off the scale, with these Indians mixing their empirical observations of substances like kambo with their folkloric and spiritual concepts of the world. I just focus on the empirical observations, and strip away the folkloric and spiritual (even though these are fascinating in their own right). In fact, I am not really too flustered by pseudoscience, as I have a pretty strong scientific education, and I see through it immediately.

In any case, the story I quoted about this bedbound-to-reasonably-healthy cure of chronic fatigue syndrome comes not from the Amazon, but from an individual with CFS (named Jox) who happened to try kambo, and got these dramatic results within weeks. I have corresponded with Jox, and I am certain his story is genuine, and that it is accurate. So I think this is certainly something that needs to be followed up and replicated, in the best traditions of the scientific method.

 

[endotropic]

(2) To take dermorphin intranasally, what I want to do is mix my 5,000 mcg of dermorphin powder with some other inert powder, in a ratio of 1000:1, so that 50 mg of this mixture will contain 50 mcg of dermorphin. This then makes it easier to weigh out doses for snorting. So my question here is: what is a good inert powder to use for this purpose, that will not degrade or react with this rather delicate dermorphin peptide?

You need to be very very careful if you plan on diluting your stock powder this way. Making a homogeneous mixture from two powders is extremely difficult. This is why heroin adulterated with fentanyl kills so many people, a few bags won't have any, then the next bag has 10x the expected fentanyl.

There are machines that can mix powders accurately, but they're not cheap. Making a 1000:1 mixture by hand just seems risky. I know you're worried about stability, but you should consider putting your sample into solution instead.

 

[Hip]

You need to be very very careful if you plan on diluting your stock powder this way. Making a homogeneous mixture from two powders is extremely difficult. This is why heroin adulterated with fentanyl kills so many people, a few bags won't have any, then the next bag has 10x the expected fentanyl.

There are machines that can mix powders accurately, but they're not cheap. Making a 1000:1 mixture by hand just seems risky. I know you're worried about stability, but you should consider putting your sample into solution instead.

Thanks for that Endotropic. Point well taken.

I was in fact already wondering how to create a uniform powder mixture, so as to avoid accidentally killing myself by snorting up some pure unmixed dermorphin.

My idea is to use a combination of intensive manual mixing (chopping up and mixing the powders on a glass mirror with a sharp knife / razor blade), and some vibration methods. I have a powerful handheld body massager, whose head vibrates at a really fierce 40 Hz; I have used this massager in the past to help mix powders in a glass vessel place on the massager head, and it seems to work. Though there is always the concern that larger-sized particles will rise to the top of the mixture during the vibration treatment. But if I perform several repeated cycles of intensive manual mixing and vibration mixing, this should perhaps ensure a thorough mix? I have a good mortar and pestle too, which can help to grind the powers together.

As you say, it may be better to dissolve my 5,000 mcg of dermorphin in water. I could then divide this solution into 100 little aliquots, each containing 50 mcg of dermorphin, and then freeze all these aliquots individually, so that I can remove one single 50 mcg dose from the freezer when I need it.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

A question: have you considered ordering the frog? I mean rather than mixing extremely potent compounds and dosing ones that may or may not even be the compounds that are responsible for the CFS effects. I'm not sure what the animal import laws are where you are, but the thing are far from endangered and easy to order. Perhaps this would be safer and "more authentic" to Jox's technique.

Also if it does work you can reuse the frog!

 

[Hip]

A question: have you considered ordering the frog? I mean rather than mixing extremely potent compounds and dosing ones that may or may not even be the compounds that are responsible for the CFS effects. I'm not sure what the animal import laws are where you are, but the thing are far from endangered and easy to order. Perhaps this would be safer and "more authentic" to Jox's technique.

Also if it does work you can reuse the frog!

I have thought of doing a proper session using kambo, as Jox does himself. However, kambo sessions are not for the fainthearted, because minutes after taking kambo, you start violently and profusely purging from both ends (vomiting and diarrhea at the same time) until there nothing left to purge, and even then, you still purge some. Plus your heartbeat races extremely high during this period, your throat swells, and blood flushes to your skin so you look bright red. It is quite an intense physical experience (although there are no psychedelic effects with kambo; your mind remains normal).

You also need to make 5 burns on you skin using a bit of smoldering wood, in order to administer the kambo (you put the frog secretion on the fresh burns, where it is absorbed). However, these burns leave scars that take 6 months or more to disappear. You can see what the skin scars look like here. The reluctance to cover myself in such burn scars is one reason why I want to work out which of kambo's active ingredients produces the health benefits, and then just take that pure ingredient instead (either intranasally, or perhaps by injection).

Stomach acids disable the delicate peptides in kambo, so you cannot take kambo orally. Sublingually does not work either. You can take kambo intranasally if you want, but there are reasons why intranasal administration is not generally recommended (the Indians have apparently observed that intranasal kambo can sometimes precipitate a disease, whereas the burn method of administration they say is safe).

I am hoping that taking some dermorphin, which is without any physical effects, will work just as well as kambo. But if taking pure dermorphin does not improve my chronic fatigue syndrome, then I might try a proper kambo session.

You don't actually need to get hold of a live frog, though: what people tend to do is order the dried secretions of the frog. The Indians collect the frog secretions on flat slithers of wood about 1 cm wide. These are called "kambo sticks", and I have one here. The dried waxy secretions look like a very thick layer of vanish on the wood. One kambo stick last a long time, and provides for around 20 kambo "trips". After a kambo trip, people often report increased vigor, a sharpening of vision, relief from pain, and a reduction of any disease symptoms they may have.

Interestingly, even though the pure dermorphin peptide is not so stable at room temperature, the dried waxy secretions on these kambo sticks remain potent for years.

 

[sekio]

dermorphin, which is without any physical effects

I highly doubt you can say it has "no physical effects". Moreover, administering opioid peptides on a weekly basis does not sit right with me... it doesn't seem like a particularly effective cure if you have to keep repeating it?

Do recall that even "plain" opioids like fentanyl can cause strange and unpleasant side effects like sweating, dizziness, purging, esp if you miss the dose target. It just goes with the territory...

even though the pure dermorphin peptide is not so stable at room temperature

It's more of a cautionary thing. I'm sure the protien is stable enough to survive being rubbed into a burn wound (that is, it ddegrades only slowly in "ambient" conditions; but if you were an analytical lab ordering dermorphin you wouldn't want to have your reference standard degrading in the slightest.

Also, I bet you most "pure" dermorphin isn't even from frogs - I would say it's made via solid phase peptide synthesis.There's only 1 nonstandard amino acid and no post-translational modifications, so it's a pretty good target for mass production there.

Pharma geeks; why does dermorphin cross the BBB but not endorphine or DAMGO? I want my Gibsonesque endorphin transdermal patches!
Or is this one of those "oxytoxcin totally crosses the BBB" ... .only 10% sort of deals?

 

[Hip]

I highly doubt you can say it has "no physical effects".

I think you are right, Sekio, there do appear to be some physical effects with dermorphin. I just re-read the two dermorphin trip reports here and here, and they do talk about a flushing of blood to the face and profuse sweating in one person that took 500 mcg of dermorphin intranasally.

Though these are relatively mild physical effects, compared to the violent vomiting and diarrhea caused by kambo.

administering opioid peptides on a weekly basis does not sit right with me... it doesn't seem like a particularly effective cure if you have to keep repeating it?

Are there any particular concerns you would have about administering dermorphin on a weekly basis? Any pointers to potential problems would be very helpful.

I know there could be potential problems with addiction, tolerance and withdrawal, but I am hoping these problems will not occur, because for one, this study found that "tolerance and physical dependence was consistently less marked with dermorphin than with morphine", and also, bear in mind that I plan to use dermorphin doses 10 times smaller than those taken by the recreational drug users in these trip reports.

Perhaps "cure" was the wrong word to use for the kambo treatment of CFS, as cure implies that CFS has gone entirely, which I don't think is the case. "Effective treatment" would be a better description of kambo's apparent ability bring remission from CFS — a remission that is sustained provided you keep taking kambo once weekly.

Just from once weekly kambo treatments, Jox went from being a bedbound "living corpse" as he described himself, to being fit and able enough to go on a motorcycle vacation in Mexico. By anyone's standards, that is a very, very effective treatment of CFS.

 

[endotropic]

Perhaps "cure" was the wrong word to use for the kambo treatment of CFS, as cure implies that CFS has gone entirely, which I don't think is the case. "Effective treatment" would be a better description of kambo's apparent ability bring remission from CFS — a remission that is sustained provided you keep taking kambo once weekly.

Just from once weekly kambo treatments, Jox went from being a bedbound "living corpse" as he described himself, to being fit and able enough to go on a motorcycle vacation in Mexico. By anyone's standards, that is a very, very effective treatment of CFS.

Have there been any external media reports on this Jox individual and his treatment? I don't want to start pointing fingers, this could be a new highly effective treatment for your condition, or this could be an individual with a vested interest in seeing more kambo sold.

 

[Hip]

Have there been any external media reports on this Jox individual and his treatment? I don't want to start pointing fingers, this could be a new highly effective treatment for your condition, or this could be an individual with a vested interest in seeing more kambo sold.

I have no doubts that Jox's account is authentic. Though it is quite possible that this kambo treatment may not work for other people with CFS. Patients do occasionally recover from CFS after hitting upon the right drugs or supplements; but very often, what works for one CFS patient does not work for another.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Hats off to you ! Can't wait to hear more.

 

[Venrak]

Honestly - I would not play with dermorphin if you paid me to. I would definitely not be taking it every week.

I think this says it all,OP.

If sekio wouldn't feel safe doing it himself, I'm not even considering trying.

 

[Hip]

I think this says it all,OP.

If sekio wouldn't feel safe doing it himself, I'm not even considering trying.

But I'd like to know the reasons why a selective mu-opioid receptor agonist such as dermorphin might be dangerous, other than the danger of overdose. After all, the non-selective opioid receptor agonist morphine is routinely used in hospitals for pain control.

It is interesting that dermorphin has been frequently used (illegally) in horse racing: this opioid peptide reduces pain, and this makes horses run faster, because of the higher pain threshold. I am not aware of any side effects incurred from this horse racing use of dermorphin. Indeed, with the cost of some thoroughbred race horses reaching into the millions, I very much doubt if their owners would use dermorphin if it caused any problems for the horse.

 

[sekio]

But I'd like to know the reasons why a selective mu-opioid receptor agonist such as dermorphin might be dangerous, other than the danger of overdose. [...] the non-selective opioid receptor agonist morphine is routinely used in hospitals for pain control.

Do we know it is selective? Even if it is - would you take fentanyl on a regular basis? And regular morphine use is definitely not without its side effects.

I very much doubt if their owners would use dermorphin if it caused any problems for the horse.

Horse racers used to stuff ginger roots up their horses' asses to make them walk upright, I don't think that people using it as a doping drug really care about safety a whole lot.

 

[Hip]

Do we know it is selective? Even if it is - would you take fentanyl on a regular basis? And regular morphine use is definitely not without its side effects.

Fentanyl is prescribed and taken on a regular basis for the management of chronic pain, as is morphine. So yes, I would take either if I needed them for pain control.

This study found that dermorphin has strong specificity for mu-opioid receptors.

And deltorphin, another peptide present in kambo, has a high agonistic specificity for delta-opioid receptors.



Though in terms of regular use, this warning about kambo may be relevant:

Kambô is a vaccine and as such should not be used regularly in low dosages so that the body does not get used to the substances and lose their effect.

Source: www.ayahuasca.com/spirit/kambo-the-spirit-of-the-shaman/

 

[Foreigner]

There are better alternative treatments for CFS than burning your skin or licking frogs. Most CFS patients I've treated respond well to adrenal supplements, diet alterations, and eventually when they are strong enough, routine exercise. From my perspective in a non-western health field, CFS is endocrine and immune related, both of which have non-froggy solutions.

 

[Venrak]

We're talking injection of a mu agonist active in double digit microgram doses for recreational effects which was acquired from an online RC shop.