Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[theacidtest]

Ya, the model psychosis theory was the earliest one and was quickly abandoned due to being completely inaccurate.

 

[Ismene]

Check the 'acknowledgements' section at the front if you have the paperback version, my name is in there, Andy Roberts is an awesome guy

It does say "Thank you Mr Maximillian Freakout".

rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.

Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?

 

[Xorkoth]

I also don't buy the model psychosis theory. I think it was just doctors attempting to describe something medically with little to no real understanding. I think there is loads of evidence that the psychedelic state is much, much different from psychosis. I don't believe it is psychosis myself (unless it triggers psychosis)... just something dramatically different which can cause people to display some of the same outward signs in some cases.

 

[pmoseman]

Ya, the model psychosis theory was the earliest one and was quickly abandoned due to being completely inaccurate.

Model psychosis is the hope that a psychosis temporarily induced by drugs (large amounts of alcohol, cocaine, nitrous, ...?) would reveal what causes actual psychosis.

LSD, which readily produces hallucinations, was perfect for this kind of research; yet, to this day the cause of hallucinations remains elusive.

Drug induced psychosis may possibly be similar to some early stage of a psychosis.

EDIT: I would say it was abandoned because LSD and psychosis are fundamentally different.

It does say "Thank you Mr Maximillian Freakout".

rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.

Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?

Yes. A psychotic could feel insanely happy and wonderful, as in manic depressive. A bad trip (thought loops) would resemble the opposite of what you got going on.

 

[max_freakout]

Isn't the "model psychosis" a theory from way back in the 50s offered by psychiatrists who'd never taken the drug

It's the other way round, the psychiatrists who came up with the term psychotomimetic like humphrey Osmond had taken LSd themselves. That was the whole point of the term 'psychotomimetic' in the first place, because with psychotomimetic drugs the psychiatrists could undeerstand the inner worlds of their psychotic patients by tripping themselves.

Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?

It is the precise opposite end of the psychedelic spectrum, the psychotic bad trip, losing mental control. Psychosis is generally not a pleasant experience, it is often deeply disturbing frightening and unpleasant to lose control of your mind.

 

[swilow]

Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?

Yeah, look, if psychedelics truly resemble psychosis, bring on the schizophrenia baby :D Imagine feeling the comsic unity, the joy and laughter, the love and peace without having to score/ingest drugs!! Sounds heavenly.

It isn't, though, because my own experiences with psychosis were totally terrifyingly different to any other experience ever and bore no resemblance to psychedelic drug intoxication whatsoever, and this particular fact was realised within years of the term psychotomimetic being introduced. Perhaps, my induction into altered states helped me deal with my experiences better, but chicken/egg.

Only the psychedelics could accurately be called 'psychotomimetic', and that doesnt mean that they can cause lasting psychotic breaks, rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.

Not true at all, stimulants, dissociatives, deleriants, hell, even fucking zolpidem cause symptoms much more in line with psychosis then psychedelics. Ever read about MDPV aural/visual hallucinations?

I also don't buy the model psychosis theory. I think it was just doctors attempting to describe something medically with little to no real understanding. I think there is loads of evidence that the psychedelic state is much, much different from psychosis. I don't believe it is psychosis myself (unless it triggers psychosis)... just something dramatically different which can cause people to display some of the same outward signs in some cases.

Exactly. Its like saying a pear is similar to an apple- they are both fruit-, but they are still different fruits. Psychedleics only induce an altered state of consciousness, which is only similar to psychosis because it too is an altered state. But psychedelics are pears or maybe banana's, I cannot be sure...

I think its time we moved away from the Tim Leary, 1950's, MKUltra characterisation of psychedelics. Almost anyone on bluelight who can read has more information then the 'pioneers' did, plus we have an extra 50 years of analysis on them. And yet, people still deify ideas of shamanism and Amazonian ayahuasca sessions and 'correct' use of mushrooms (correct according to an indigenous Mexican tribe), stone age psychedelic use and ancient greeks ceremoniously tripping, as these revered pioneers. Seriously, these things are as irrelevant to the modern world as psytrance would have been to the cave painters of Lascaux. I could imagine little less meaningful then taking ayahuasca in the jungle with a guy trying to tell me that the spirit of Quetzalcoatl is communicating through him by whistling tunelessly. No, sorry, its my mind, the inner god, that I am communicating with, not your pre-Copernican misattribution of physical phenomena.

Several cents, may be O/T, who can tell...

 

[pmoseman]

chicken/egg

There are a lot more eggs than chickens and so the egg came first. The joke is that chicken came first in the question.

Did you have prodromal symptoms before psychedelics, or what other drugs were you using to reach altered states and did you find any of them psychotomimetic or perhaps responsible?

EDIT: As for deification of the pioneers, Hoffman's initial description of an LSD experience is the best one of those I have come across.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Psychotoxic or Psychedelic

Here's a 40 year old paper on our subject. By a criminologist. In spite of some marked differences, psychedelics don't deserve to be classified differently than other psychotomimetics, such as inhaled volatile solvents (the favored comparison of the article), from a scientific perspective.


Here is a 1997 MAPS newsletter summarizing a conference, indicating that indeed psychedelics may be useful as models of several symptoms of schizophrenic psychosis. The first few paragraphs of this newsletter are also relevant.

Here is a summary of a study using ayahuasca which found that SPECT and fMRI scans indicate neurobiological similarities between the trip and endogenous psychosis, though it notes that psychosis and the psychedelic state are dissimilar.


The invariable mention of differences between the two states, and cherry picking of what similarities there are between the psychedelic and psychotic states as subjects of study, leave me firm in my incredulity of characterizations of the psychedelic experience as a variety of psychosis. What data I have dug seems to indicate that there is some overlap between psychedelic and psychotic symptoms, and the accompanying physiological processes, the identification of one with the other in many academic circles is the result of a few early experiments and cultural attitudes towards altered states of consciousness, and that the extreme difficulty of gaining authorization to conduct studies on these drugs and their effects leads researches to prefer to stick to the beaten path where there are most likely to meaningful results, and in an inherent preference (medically justified) to model and develop treatments for severe mental illnesses, rather than explore the precise nature of abnormal states of consciousness.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

It does say "Thank you Mr Maximillian Freakout".

rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.

Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?

Yes they can. There are many different forms of psychotic state. Psychosis can co-exist with say axis II personality traits. So the psychosis could be hypermania, catatonia, paranoia, thought disorders, delusions etc and can be caused by axis one conditions such as bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, depressive psychosis, drug induced psychosis, dementia, etc. These axis one conditions may cause the sufferer to exhibit delusional thought content such as a grandiose delusion of having millions of dollars and/or being the BF/GF of some movie star or even say being Married to Prince William. Add an axis II trait such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder in which even when well the client has underlying feelings or beliefs of superiority and the presentation may be the psychotic individual walking through the main street with his/her jocks/nickers on and nothing more hailing all the passing traffic because they truly believe their delusional thought content.

As for feeling great... yeah manic sufferers of bipolar disorder when hypermaic and psychosis has set in people feel wonderful, better than they ever have in their lives, they may laugh for no apparent reason, walk for hundreds of miles in no apparent direction, not sleep for days etc. Someone experiencing auditory hallucinations due to suffering schizophrenia may also laugh without any apparent focus for the mirth. It may be they experience auditory symptoms and "the voices"may tell jokes etc. SO it is possible for a psychotic person to be super happy. They may give away all their possessions and money to random strangers. These are symptoms of chronic and acute mental illness. Drug induced psychosis is an acute and rapidly resolving form of psychosis and may take a variety of forms including the examples outlined depending on individual in question and drug/substance abused/consumed.

Obviously this individual did not need drugs (or didn't take the right ones) to become psychotic. Not everyone who is psychotic tries to destroy everything in sight for no apparent reason for example. Psychosis takes many different form such as paranoia, delusion thought content, grandiose delusions, ideas of persecution, though blocking, thought insertion etc. The symptoms and behaviors of psychotic individuals are also as diverse. So tripping balls could be seen by another individual as someone having a psychotic episode of some unknown kind. Once they reach ER and the paramedics discover a sheet of LSD in the guys possession it's automatically diagnosed by a treating doctor on arrival at ER as being drug induced psychosis. Non judgmental medical professionals... my ass. Hope that helps muddy the waters a bit more.

 

[Ismene]

I didn't think psychosis was the route to happiness tho. You don't tend to get many psychotics saying "I hope to reach psychosis soon cos I'll be so happy".

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Obviously this individual did not need drugs (or didn't take the right ones) to become psychotic. Not everyone who is psychotic tries to destroy everything in sight for no apparent reason for example. Psychosis takes many different form such as paranoia, delusion thought content, grandiose delusions, ideas of persecution, though blocking, thought insertion etc. The symptoms and behaviors of psychotic individuals are also as diverse. So tripping balls could be seen by another individual as someone having a psychotic episode of some unknown kind. Once they reach ER and the paramedics discover a sheet of LSD in the guys possession it's automatically diagnosed by a treating doctor on arrival at ER as being drug induced psychosis. Non judgmental medical professionals... my ass

But if we know that we're tripping, and that any bizarre thoughts or feelings are a result of that, we're not really delusional then are we? Like there's a big difference between formication and delusional parasitosis.

Also, a number of so called delusions are congruent with perfectly ordinary claims of philosophers and theologians, is there some difference in claiming to be a monist or metaphysical idealist, and acutely perceiving the universe to be so, that makes the latter a sufferer of a psychotic delusion?

We do not protest the claim that the people who go running down the street naked yelling out some truth they have discovered, or who think that they have gained the power to psychically manipulate causality, are off their rocker. The issue at hand is whether the thought-content/idea-space of the average psychedelic experience, which is in many ways indistinguishable from experiences induced by mystic disciplines the world over (which are not viewed as problematic), is being mistreated when it is viewed solely through the lens of The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

You know what they say. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[pmoseman]

I didn't think psychosis was the route to happiness tho. You don't tend to get many psychotics saying "I hope to reach psychosis soon cos I'll be so happy".

'Colin.' he said, turning to the little, hovering ball. 'I am going to abandon you to your fate.'

'I'm so happy,' said Colin.

'Make the most of it,' said Ford. 'Because what I want you to do is to nursemaid that package out of the building. They'll probably incinerate you when they find you, and I won't be here to help. It will be very, very nasty for you, and that's just too bad. Got it?'

'I gurgle with pleasure,' said Colin.

 

[Kl519]

^lol. Too funny...right in between serious discussions.

This thread covers all bases. There's a good reason that psychedelics have that warning; to be cautious if someone in your family has a mental disorder, and/or it may cause your own underlying mental condition to become prominent. I don't know how they're connected, but it seems that a negative reaction/bad trip can trigger an episode in some such cases, as I have seen happen before to someone I knew.

I guess there are many different connotations to be drawn from the psychedelic effect on users, depending on the person and the chem they have taken. Dosage is of little concern as one can have a low or high tolerance and adjust accordingly, but there seems to be certain substances that affect the psyche more heavily than others. However, the person him/herself is the biggest variable of all.

I don't believe one can have an "ego loss" if they aren't open to the experience. And by open, I mean "even if it becomes extremely overwhelming, just embrace it and enjoy the ride." Easier said than done. Those trips can easily take a turn for the worst if you fight it or give in to the panic. That's easy to do because it's suppose to be a mind-shattering experience and it's difficult to keep your composure while enduring that. I've had a few bad trips on acid before when I couldn't do that, and they weren't fun in the slightest.

In response to the OP's original question, yes that type of experience can happen but it shouldn't really be labeled as an ego death, and the experience will vary. Though it shouldn't extend past the peak. Maybe you'll have an afterglow, or some profound insight might change you after the experience, but you shouldn't be getting an ego loss or a "depersonalization" state of mind after the peak is done. That kind of experience should leave you feeling fresh, positive, and clear about yourself and the world after the trip.

The only thing I can think of is that you may have had a mental breakdown because of the trip itself, which could mean your "depersonalization" state of mind is a result of that. Meaning, your psyche didn't take too kindly to it because that would be considered a negative after effect. I've personally seen someone take shrooms and completely flip out, and for months his mind was so unstable that he couldn't concentrate on anything, had a hard time reading/comprehending, and wasn't himself. I don't think you reacted that badly, not even close, but be careful of high doses if you don't feel right after the trip has concluded. Shrooms should leave you feeling great once you come closer to sobriety.

 

[Ismene]

Yes they can. There are many different forms of psychotic state.

Is that common tho? If we had a day trip to Broadmoor would we meet happy people full of joy and laughter? It doesn't seem like that on the clips of it I've seen. Obviously there'll be the odd one out but I think Woodstock was happier tripping on acid than it would've been if it was a crowd of psychotics.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

But if we know that we're tripping, and that any bizarre thoughts or feelings are a result of that, we're not really delusional then are we? Like there's a big difference between formication and delusional parasitosis.

Also, a number of so called delusions are congruent with perfectly ordinary claims of philosophers and theologians, is there some difference in claiming to be a monist or metaphysical idealist, and acutely perceiving the universe to be so, that makes the latter a sufferer of a psychotic delusion?

We do not protest the claim that the people who go running down the street naked yelling out some truth they have discovered, or who think that they have gained the power to psychically manipulate causality, are off their rocker. The issue at hand is whether the thought-content/idea-space of the average psychedelic experience, which is in many ways indistinguishable from experiences induced by mystic disciplines the world over (which are not viewed as problematic), is being mistreated when it is viewed solely through the lens of The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

You know what they say. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Well yes a traditional ritual practiced in keeping with traditional beliefs by someone who is a member of that culture it is not a psychotic episode but a spiritual ritual. Give it (the psychedelic) to someone without the cultural background, beliefs, life style, training etc and well it loses all cultural and religious/spiritual meaning the psychedelic ceremony may have had. Now we are back to Johnny suburbia "tripping balls". Without the cultural significance, background, beliefs etc it is a meaningless act. Reading a few texts or a book on Shamanism does not make the urban hippy any closer to understanding the real cultural significance of the practice in question. Without that knowledge, belief, training etc well... the urban hippy is just "tripping balls".

I offered one point of view of the "ego death" experience: that of the medical model. There are, as this little discussion has highlighted many views on this issue, some accurate, some based on ethnic cultural practice, some factual, some based on clinical evidence and research and some that are not based on any of this and are simply ideology that seems to glorify psychedelic drug use based on purely speculative assumption or "urban myths".

An alternative view may be the appropriate use of psychedelics in terms of cultural, religious and spiritual purposes as practiced by members of that specific ethnic group for who it forms an essential part of their cultural belief system. This does not include "urban shamans" of non ethnic background who have at best limited cultural, spiritual and religious understanding, often gained by reading a few books on shamanism. No doubt published by an individual who shares none of the beliefs, practices, ethnicity etc of the people for who this practice is culturally significant.

Pmoseman Thank you for your humorous interlude in this somewhat tired circular and repetitious debate!

Max please refrain from trivializing the dying process of others, it makes you seem somewhat lacking in terms of empathy and life experience. Sorry Max but when you trivialize the dying process/death of others such as implied in your "I was waiting for him to mention palliative care but he didn't..." you come across as someone with limited empathy to others and a very limited experience of life. This may be viewed, using the medical model, that you display traits of NPD. As a result your comments on "ego death" etc lack substance. Your opinion is your own and your entitled to express it. It is of note however that often your contradicting yourself from one post to the next.

Ismene I suggest researching a little on mental health disorders. Someone who suffers bipolar disorder when manic is elevated (often euphorically so) of mood with a congruent affect. A sufferer of schizophrenia will often feed their illness believing the "voices" are divine or spiritual etc depending on their beliefs, cultural background etc. By feed I mean be non compliant with anti-psychotic medications, use illicit substances that increase the delusions/ thought disorder etc. Psychology 101 text book or something similar to get a basic over view of the many types of psychosis and the presenting features associated with specific disorders. Greater insight = greater understanding.

Kl519 thank you, your input is spot on the money. Wish there were more posters of your caliber.

Thank you everyone for your input it has been most interesting indeed.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^Well reasoned. However, as a critique of the use of psychedelic use outside of cultural settings to which they are traditional rather than aberrant behavior, it presupposes the uniqueness of the psychedelic experience to claim that random Westerners taking these drugs would not find these drugs as significant as one where it is a part of the cultural myth/ritual. I would contest this claim, the mystic experiences that psychedelics induce are attainable while sober through years of dedicated spiritual discipline, and these experiences have a place in all the great traditions, because they are endemic to humanity.

For example, the subject of this thread, Ego death. *Takes off Socrates hat, puts on fractal floral crown*

the psychedelic community, via this thread

It's more like an "ego loss," because your sense of self didn't die, but it's temporarily lost because you're not capable of thinking that way on that level of a trip

a state devoid of value and gradation and totally devoid of self, in a place where the concept of actual death is foreign (how can a timeless, universal, unending/unbeginning thin layer of nothingness die???).

Hinduism, via Vedanta

For where there is duality, as it were, there one smells another; there one sees another; there on hears another; there one speaks to another; there one thinks of another; there one understands another. But where everything has become just one's own self, then whereby and whom would smell? then whereby and whom would one see? then whereby and whom would one hear? then whereby and to whom would one speak? then whereby and of whom would one think? then whereby and whom would one understand? whereby would one understand him by whom one understands this All? Lo, whereby would one understand the understander?

Why then is it said that after attaining oneness the self has no more consciousness?

Islam, via Sufism

The first time I made the pilgrimage I saw the house, the second time I made it I saw the Lord of the House, but not the house, but the third time I made it I saw neither the House nor the Lord of the House.

'Thin is the glass and clear is the wine;
the two are alike---mutual resemblance.
It is as if there were only wine, and no glass at all
Or as if only glass, and no wine there.'

But there is a difference in saying, 'The wine is the wine-glass, and saying, 'It is as if it were the wine-glass'. Now when this state prevails it is called 'annihilation', for [the mystic] is annihilated so far as he himself is concerned, and annihilated too so far as his own annihilation is concerned: he is not conscious of himself in this state, nor is he conscious of his own unconsciousness; for were he conscious of his own unconsciousness, he would be conscious of himself. This condition is metaphorically called ittihad (becoming one with) with reference to the man who is immersed in it, but in the language of truth [it is called] tawhid (to make one).

Christianity, via Catholocism

We might say that union is as if the ends of two wax candles were joined so that the light they give is one: the wicks and the wax and the light are all one, yet afterwards the one candle can be perfectly well separated from the other and the candles become two again, or the wick may be withdrawn from the wax. But here it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or a spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belonging to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows through which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one..... This, I think, the soul may say here, for it is here that the little butterfly to which we have referred dies, and with the greatest joy, because Christ is now its life.

......

there is a self-forgetfulness which is so complete that it really seems as though the soul no longer existed, because it is such that she has neither knowledge nor remembrance that there is either heaven or life or honour for her, so entirely is she employed in seeking the honour of God. It appears that the words which His Majesty addressed to her have produced their effect -- namely, that she must take care of His business and He will take care of hers. And thus, happen what may, she does not mind in the least, but lives in so strange a state of forgetfulness that, as I say, she seems no longer to exist, and has no desire to exist

The tenth and last step of this secret ladder of love assimilates the soul to God completely because of the clear vision of God that a person possesses at once on reaching it. After arriving at the ninth step in this life, the soul departs from the body. Since these souls - few that there be - are already extremely purged through love, they do not enter purgatory. St. Matthew says: Beati mundo corde, quoniam ipsi Deum videbunt, etc. [Mt. 5:8].3 As we mentioned, this vision is the cause of the soul's complete likeness to God. St. John says: We know that we shall be like him [1 Jn. 3:2], not because the soul will have as much capacity as God - this is impossible - but because all it is will become like God. Thus it will be called, and shall be, God through participation.

Now, is the average psychedelic aware of these traditions? No, until they start reading up on Eastern thought (I neglected to mention Buddhism, because anatta, no-self, is one of its basic tenets). Yet, while the methodology used to reach this state may be taboo, the state itself has been elaborated and integrated into the spiritual dogmas of civilization to a greater degree than that of the witch-doctors you mention. If one were to approach it from this angle, or whichever sub-angle is appropriate, would the secular verdict that states such as ego death are mere psychotic delusions be abrogated?


P.S. If anybody wonders which books the Christian examples come from, they are, respectively, The Interior Castle, and The Dark Night of the Soul.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well yes a traditional ritual practiced in keeping with traditional beliefs by someone who is a member of that culture it is not a psychotic episode but a spiritual ritual. Give it (the psychedelic) to someone without the cultural background, beliefs, life style, training etc and well it loses all cultural and religious/spiritual meaning the psychedelic ceremony may have had. Now we are back to Johnny suburbia "tripping balls". Without the cultural significance, background, beliefs etc it is a meaningless act. Reading a few texts or a book on Shamanism does not make the urban hippy any closer to understanding the real cultural significance of the practice in question. Without that knowledge, belief, training etc well... the urban hippy is just "tripping balls".

I disagree with this assertion. I derived my own meaning and significance from psychedelics from the very first time I used them. My first experience was as far from psychotic as I can imagine. I don't believe that it is impossible to gain the same sort of insights as someone using it in a cultural manner, though I'm sure the experience would be different in some ways (as it is for every single person based on their own personal beliefs, history, personality, memory, neurochemistry, etc). And now, because of the framework I have built from previous trips, I have such a cultural framework, it's one that I built myself though as well as through discussion with other like-minded people.

What about the first time someone from an indigenous culture happened upon a plant's ability to produce such a state? Did they become psychotic then, and only stopped becoming psychotic under its effects once they had developed a cultural framework? Or was the experience mystical and valid and that was why the cultural framework was developed in the first place?

Is what you're saying that for anyone not part of a culture with a history of consuming psychedelic substances, the experience is that of psychosis, but it isn't for those who are? This does not ring of truth to me, even if I hadn't had my own experiences to back me up.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^His position makes more sense if you think of things from a sociological perspective. With a bird's eye view of human behavior, socialization is very important. Cohesion with the consensus reality of one's culture, being a member of the community, is integral to social functioning (believe it or not, pro-social behavior is correlated with health and happiness). Furthermore, prohibitionist sentiments are very strong in our culture (our nation in particular tries to get others to tow the party line), so to the ivory tower, violating cultural mores is going to be an inherently anti-social behavior, to the normal it's just plain immoral; thus these taboo practices cannot hold the significance of a culture's own rituals, which promote social harmony through participation.

This is built upon the positivism that shaped the 20th century developments in the social sciences. I couldn't have made this post without good ol' Émile Durkheim, for instance. The problem is that this philosophy holds that empirical evidence and logic/math are the only true sources of knowledge, and its adherents generally have not studied enough philosophy to be more than half-aware of their own beliefs, or conceive that their fundamental assumptions are just one of several competing sets and are not self-evidently the most superior and solely rational option. Not really a problem for a natural scientist, but you can see how the behavioral scientist can become the the thought police when he views man as a mathematical object in a social equation.

 

[Xorkoth]

I see what you're saying. And yet, in my sub-culture (among my friends, therapist, acquaintences (most of them), even my family to some extent), psychedelic use is seen as a valid thing, from accepted and interesting to completely normal. The days are long gone when I felt like I was doing something wrong or against society by tripping. Tripping urges me to participate socially within my culture. If I lived elsewhere in the country these things might not be true, but I do not live elsewhere.

 

[swilow]

Damn, Xork said it better but I'll keep my post.

Western reverence for indigenous culture is absurd considering that we are part of a system that is actively dismantling these cultures. It is almost discriminatory to elevate use of drugs simply based on the ethnicity of the user.

Well yes a traditional ritual practiced in keeping with traditional beliefs by someone who is a member of that culture it is not a psychotic episode but a spiritual ritual. Give it (the psychedelic) to someone without the cultural background, beliefs, life style, training etc and well it loses all cultural and religious/spiritual meaning the psychedelic ceremony may have had. Now we are back to \Johnny suburbia "tripping balls". Without the cultural significance, background, beliefs etc it is a meaningless act. Reading a few texts or a book on Shamanism does not make the urban hippy any closer to understanding the real cultural significance of the practice in question. Without that knowledge, belief, training etc well... the urban hippy is just "tripping balls".

But how can you- or anyone- say that there is an objective 'meaning' in the use of psychedelics?

Why is indigenous use elevated over non-indigenous use? Consider some of the more common 'wisdom' gleaned from indigenous use of ayahuasca, the tautology that ayahuasca itself told people how to use ayahuasca. Now that is meaningless. I've tripped in environments lead by 'shamans' and whilst I guess I understand the point of the icaros, I found it just annoying and meaningless. I find the beat of a fat psy kick to be much more sacred- to me.

Psychedelics are free for ALL to use, in ANY WAY they CHOOSE. If you want to eat acid and attend a football game, do it- if you want to try and pretend to cope with life in a jungle, do it- if you want to ingest drugs SOLELY for the enjoyable effects, do it. There is no mighty and godlike reason for anyone ever to take these drugs; it could be argued that there exist more reasons NOT to take them; but that is also meaningless, because these are plants and compounds that evolved independently of humans and we are nothing to them at all. They do not serve us, nor we them. Just because a culture has a history with use of a compound does not make their usage more legitimate. There is no more or less in this situation, psychedelics are valueless outside of the human brain.

An alternative view may be the appropriate use of psychedelics in terms of cultural, religious and spiritual purposes as practiced by members of that specific ethnic group for who it forms an essential part of their cultural belief system. This does not include "urban shamans" of non ethnic background who have at best limited cultural, spiritual and religious understanding, often gained by reading a few books on shamanism. No doubt published by an individual who shares none of the beliefs, practices, ethnicity etc of the people for who this practice is culturally significant.

There is no appropriate use. That is an illusion. They are to be used in whatever way the individual chooses.

Of course, our western culture does not really have the infrastructure to assimilate a horde of people losing their minds on a regular basis, so we have prohibited them. That's our cultural heritage; say you that I should adhere to that particular twisted legacy?

I won't, and neither do you by the sounds of it.

Good post lovepsychadelics