Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[pmoseman]

Hopefully two things can help bring us back together, if only a moment. The first is that people seem far less crazy when you understand their social context. It is not that in one social context being crazy is the norm in another. It is important not to be culturally bias. For instance, you might mistake someone as crazy for wanting to hold everyone's hand.

I believe the idea we are after, or at least one we all might accept, is that living in suburbia and tripping balls does not teach you the culture of people thousands of miles away in a rain forest. You are not being labeled crazy for changing a culture, because you have no other culture, really. I live in suburbia and my culture is a touch local, a touch where I grew up, a touch Russian, Japanese, Techno, etc. I will never be an indigenous tribesman. I have failed at that lulz. I've seen things can't be unseen. But it would also be a mistake to call you crazy for wearing a funky dress and taking using one word.

The second is that nobody sensible, I don't believe, is saying that most everyone who trips x number of times is insane. That is simply not true. Personally I distrust psychedelics and no matter how well you think you understand, how well I try to explain, you won't know until you get there. People seem to have different results and they obviously would have different feelings to similar results, so I believe, and I think it all depends on what happened as a consequence, whether you blame or praise them; misidentifying the source.

So I believe there is a negative effect from these psychedelics, right, but what is negative is not always happening to everyone and some may not be really affected by it, and it is not insanity. No. It is changes in your memory, urgency, connection with reality, and personal identity, so that it is subtle and abnormal but that does not make any of you crazy. I think depression and social isolation can make someone crazy and the way so much of that trouble is being disposed is by saying that those people did not handle the trip right, with some pretty vague rule, like, "just go with the flow" and you will be fine. Without a background of information you are implicitly blaming the drug and forgetting the person. The drug may pay a small role in causing a bit more confusion or isolation and that person still had needs which have nothing to do with any drug use.

Also, it is a bit hard to go along with people shouting at you to die for two days, or something like that, when you do finally lose it.

As for the "common" bad things. If you smoke weed and trip and drink long enough, the effects are not considered good by our common standards and I do not think this is true in just our specific culture.

You can never get a good separation of events leading up to a person going crazy, but if I met a crazy person who I knew tripped acid or something I would not assume they went mad from drug use. No. But it is possible. I just don't know.

I think it is very easy to start juggling ideas and coming up with scenarios but what does make people stop using drugs or use more drugs and how much does how you use drugs matter compared with what drugs you use. Too much thinking, now I need to go for a walk. Look forward to everyone's thoughts.

edit: it just feels like there are arbitrary rules I have to live with, like I can't remember something unless it is said in a certain way, kind of like ocd, not everything feels real to me. Whatever it is I have felt it wear off.

 

[Kl519]

I think the psychosis interpretation isn't meant to be literal, at least not in the psychedelic sense. I'm pretty sure we don't resemble actual psychotic people while we're tripping, at least from what I've seen. For example, they probably don't get wavy visuals or intellectual insights like we would on tryptamines. Their effects are rawer, and of course, semi-permanent since their brains have been rewired under constant duress. I've been to a mental facility before (I wasn't a patient though, just want to make that clear lol), and some of the "crazies" seem to revel in whatever delusions they have but they can physically function normally in a way. But for us to reach that psychosis on a psychedelic, I doubt we could walk around straight or complete a crossword puzzle. They seem to believe whatever their delusional mind tells them 100%, and I would bet the vast majority of them are uneducated or empathetic. Empathy is a trait that requires putting yourself in another person's position, which I'm inclined to believe psychotic people are unable to do, at least enough to be able to act normally. So once again, we have an issue with semantics, which I kind of enjoy, on how certain terms should be defined or expressed. The sheer amount of cultural differences at play, which THR kindly posted in lengthy detail, has a lot to do with how we interpret...well, almost everything.

Even if we live in a certain location and read about every other culture in the most sociological way, we still wouldn't learn much without actually experiencing it ourselves. Only if we were assimilating ourselves into that culture and pretty much replacing it with our previous lifestyle, would we become unbiased if we were to repeat that experiment with all the others. This is much like the whole ego death topic. No matter how well we describe the trip, it doesn't substitute the experience each one of us have had, which you stated elaborately, we may take the same experience in a different way. We all have our xx receptors engaged/disengaged and have taken xx substance, but there are reports covering opposite ends of the spectrum, and everything else in the middle. Such variation because...? Well, you all pointed it out, lol.

But back to the psychosis state, I think there are both distinct similarities and differences between an actual psychotic mind and the psychosis reached by psychedelic drugs. What strikes me funny is that the close-minded, drugs-are-all-bad crowd probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between two people behaving similarly, except one is actually crazy and the other is crazy on drugs. On second thought, that might be hard to decipher but besides the obvious physical signs (pupil dilation, increased heart rate, etc) I think all of us would be able to tell the difference after an observation lasting 30 minutes.

This is a fun topic. The funny part is that these two states can overlap (imagine a mentally-deranged individual consuming 10 grams of mushrooms, heh) and how one state can lead to the other, but not the other way around. As for myself, I'm the reticent, listener type in my crowd but I talk a lot when something interests me. Another in the same group is loud, belligerent and says whatever is on his mind all the time, but tends to stay quiet when he's on a high dose of a psychedelic. You could imagine how different a high dose of miprocin or shrooms affect those two types of characters, but still have a blast and with hardly any negative effects. And then we have additional differences from set and setting with experiences coming from all over the world. Ah, mind=blown.

It's like that old saying; if there wasn't a variety, life would be boring.

 

[pmoseman]

The funny part is that these two states can overlap (imagine a mentally-deranged individual consuming 10 grams of mushrooms, heh) and how one state can lead to the other, but not the other way around.

I have not had the pleasure of meeting any psychopaths formally. I believe that it would be fascinating, perhaps not, perhaps just confusing.

Everything you said rang like a bell, except for this part. It's not what you said but how you said it. You are saying one state can lead to another, which state to which state, and in what manner do you believe they overlap?

 

[Vurtual]

psychopath is not the same as psychotic though is it? I don't think psychosis is specifically linked to lack of empathy, except maybe not being able to be properly empathetic if you perceieve what reality is differently to the people you could empathise with - correct me if i'm wrong. I imagine that psychedelics for a psychotic person would often just be grist to the mill, as they just turn up what's already there; then there's the vague concept of 'triggering' and possibility of 'latent psychosis'.

Some really interesting posts here on all 'sides' (and nice round up of some non-drug ego-loss ThornsHaveRoses)

 

[pmoseman]

No. It is not the same. Psychopath most often implies the antisocial disorder you describe but I meant a disease of the mind.
I have met people who were mentally ill, but not in a formal setting (hospital) where you might see the effects of the disease more and be made aware of how they were ill.
Psychosis includes delusions, hallucinations, and disorganized thinking.
The typical psychotic is schizophrenic.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

A psychotic person suffers from psychosis, a psychopath is someone with antisocial personality disorder.

I have met people who were mentally ill, but not in a formal setting (hospital)

I am somewhat offended by the implication that we are best represented by the institutionalized. Consider folks like me who have mood disorders, we're not crazy in the sense that people generally associate with mental illness, but can be rendered socially nonfunctional by our maladies. The other temptation of the masses is that we ought to get over it, but I don't think the mentally sound are able to appreciate the role of our emotions (via positive/negative reinforcement for instance) in our socialization and ability to reside in consensus reality and share its goals. Being further removed the world ain't gonna help with that, hospitals make some folks crazier, folks that need to be saved by understanding and inclusion.

 

[swilow]

A psychotic person suffers from psychosis, a psychopath is someone with antisocial personality disorder.



I am somewhat offended by the implication that we are best represented by the institutionalized. Consider folks like me who have mood disorders, we're not crazy in the sense that people generally associate with mental illness, but can be rendered socially nonfunctional by our maladies. The other temptation of the masses is that we ought to get over it, but I don't think the mentally sound are able to appreciate the role of our emotions (via positive/negative reinforcement for instance) in our socialization and ability to reside in consensus reality and share its goals. If your emotional reactions are idiosyncratic, or are untied to external events, you're not gonna believe in the same things as most people.

Its the Hollywood depiction of mentally ill people that is assumed to be accurate. A 'true' madman must rock back and forth in a corner. Remember, our culture paints in broad brushstrokes and primary colours, because nothing else is visible. I guess there are the psychotic disorders, which can lead the sufferer to enact his/her delusion unto the external and can best be handled (in their acute phase) in a hospital (basically quarantined from the drowsy herd). For everything else, there is little help or support that I have seen or experienced. At the height of my own madness, all I got was Seroquel and less benzo's. For a mood disorder, where all that happens is that you suffer in your own little world, who cares? As long as you keep to your own world, you are not a problem. For me, it was only when I couldn't stop making the insanity manifest that I got help.

I've noticed, in Australian society at least, that discussion of anxiety/depression and mental illness is a lot more frank and open, with media campaigns and dedicated bureaucracy for educating the public and helping to manage these more 'subtle' disorders. I think that this form of mental illness, the non-psychotic but deeply disabling, is way more common, leading me to wonder why, when we think of mental illness, we still think of hospital and straight-jackets...

 

[Kl519]

I have not had the pleasure of meeting any psychopaths formally. I believe that it would be fascinating, perhaps not, perhaps just confusing.

Everything you said rang like a bell, except for this part. It's not what you said but how you said it. You are saying one state can lead to another, which state to which state, and in what manner do you believe they overlap?

Oh, I simply meant that the shroom state could lead to real psychosis possibly, but that the psychotic state couldn't lead to the shroom state (without taking shrooms).

I think there's a huge difference between someone with a mental illness and an actual psychotic-type of illness. Even at the mental facility I was at, there's a main area for those who simply suffer from a mental illness (and most of us have at one point, whether that is depression, ptsd, addiction, ad(h)d, ocd, etc), and then there's an east ward for the "crazies." The ones with just a mental illness interact with other patients (they have to), but the truly psychotic patients cannot and are constantly watched and taken care of unless it's curfew. I visited there because I had a friend who suffered from depression (and was suicidal), so we had a chance to kind of hang out at the east ward while waiting for a nurse and damn, it was like a circus in there. The patients there talk and laugh loudly to themselves, make grandiose delusions, hit and slam things, look disheveled, you know the whole works. It's actually pretty intimidating in person because it's like they put their heart and soul into it, metaphorically speaking. The ones suffering from a "first stage" mental illness, like depression or heroin withdrawal/addiction, are pretty much normal and interact with everyone just like we would. (See here, we have a difference in beliefs of the medical terminology "mental illness" because it would label all drug addicts as a sufferer. I'm sure most wouldn't agree, but we could see their point of view, I suppose. It's that societal norm pish-posh).

Anyway, I guess my point was that those two psychotic states (psychedelic and non psychedelic) are different, but I failed to describe in detail on how they are so.

 

[pmoseman]

That is interesting. The people I've met who are evaluated as mental: OCD, Bi-polar, Schizophrenia, ADHD, Aspergers. At least in the time they spend socially, you might not notice it at all.

When they are out of sorts, they might have strange complaints or have heightened emotions. The kind of things you can accommodate a person with and I think if you're a good listener you can empathize with it.

You might expect a normal person to act crazy time to time. The first time I heard someone singing in the shower I reflected that there were no other signs that they were clinically insane. Being "nuts" is just personality differences.

The explanations of what is going on and what they are doing and why. This will be real circular, like they can't understand what you are trying to ask them, or what you see as being wrong.

If you've ever dealt with elderly Diabetics or Alzheimer's, it is like you are talking to someone half in a dream. It can be that way a little bit with someone bipolar. That is just my impression.

I am not familiar enough with mental illness to compare one disease with another, but when people are intoxicated their behavior can be noticeably different from how they normally act, but you are right, it doesn't seem to be like a mental illness. They might be noticeably different from others when everyone is sober though, depressed or overly anxious. But again, these are relatively normal.

Really, I think someone with mental illness: memory, behavioral, paranoia, can simply hide it from most people. Perhaps with anything chronic, where you have some social awareness.

Like I said, I've never seen over the top crazy, but you make it sound like movies are accurate in their portrayal: 12 Monkeys, start of season 6 on House, a couple movies with Jack Nicholson or Leonardo DiCaprio.

 

[Kl519]

Oh yeah, I would say it is similar to what movies tend to portray, but probably not exactly. The east ward I was talking about had security, doors that could only open if someone on the inside and outside both turned keys to open it, and everyone visiting have to sign papers and get sticker name tags. All this because man...those psychotic patients can really be out of control at a moment's notice and the situation can turn bad. As for the movie portrayal, I can see how talented actors could mimic them somewhat accurately. But the whole behind bars and terrible in-house conditions, that's wholly exaggerated. They get locked doors yeah, but also air conditioning, food served at the bed, and more than decent living space with nurses butt-kissing them left and right, lol.

Yeah, I don't think I'm informed enough to discern the mental illnesses apart that well. Just the obvious ones. But when compared to a psychedelic-induced mental state, I think any of us with some experience could tell the difference. The key here, well for me, was that what is considered a mental illness may not be what others define it as. Almost anyone can go into a mental hospital and claim they need help, get evaluated, and bam they are a "mental illness" patient (and believe me, those psychologists/psychiatrists will slap a label on said person for something/anything...patients=money).

The whole mental illness label has a bad stigma, but really the odds are every one of us will come across it at some point of our lives. I've been severely depressed before in my teen years, and apparently that counts as a mental illness.

lol, here where I live, I've seen countless people talking to themselves while driving. Road rage and all that. I use to think they were a little off too, but I later surmised it to just be "thinking out loud" and quite normal behavior. I think singing in the shower is similar to that. =)

I've found out that even sober people who have never taken drugs or have gone to see a therapist can act crazy too. They can be moody, divisive, and out of control. I guess it's all relative.

And yeah, I do get how those hospitals can make you crazier. I heard the food can be bland and it's hard to get food from the outside, you can't really leave if you want to because you need to be released, and your schedule is made for you. So for those with a light mental situation, it's not really a good place to be in because it's like a "prison lite." But for those who actually, really need it aka the crazies; you will be coddled in a way, since they aren't likely to get the much-needed medication and attention outside of that setting.

Wow, it's funny how we got to this topic. Yeah, ego death...

 

[fliptheswitch]

been there with DP, it sucks really bad

 

[Autistick]

I have experienced a psychotic break in public several times which stemmed from a Kundalini awakening event while inside the LSD experience. My psychotic episodes were the results of traumas from earlier life coming forward and expressing themselves at opportune times. Psychedelics can destroy a person if not used properly but the loss of ego and person is often a good thing. I have grown exponentially beyond my former boundaries as a result. And the word "psychopath" is a curse word used to slay wizards in their formative stages. I really think it is wise for the psychonaut community to move beyond psychological jargon for describing what is happening inside each of us. IMO.

 

[max_freakout]

Psychedelics can destroy a person if not used properly

I don't think that psychedelics can *permanently* destroy a person unless they commit suicide or some other extreme life-destroying act. That does happen sometimes but it is very rare. Much more often trippers just think about suicide or acts of extreme arbitrary chaos, but don't actually act on those thoughts.

Psychedelics can definitely destroy a person *temporarily* but people always recover from the destruction. Life goes on after ego death even though you now realise that you don't really exist.

 

[alfredosauce]

I did high dose lsd/2c-x/25x sometimes shrooms every 2-3 weeks switching up the substance each time for little over 2 years. I did experience depersonalization. Trips got less meaningful, as well as life. I think I can attribute it to psychadelics and weed. I used other hard stuff only occasionally back then. Towards the end of that tripping career I was just depressed and everything just felt meaningless/repetitive. Hard to understand unless u were in my shoes at the time. I've taken up to 1000 ug LSD confirmed (i don't recommend anyone not experienced to...) and I still to this day believe I've met a higher power from it and from a 25B-Nbome experience. I think from the 25B I may of been warned by this higher power though. I tripped almost as hard as the 1000 ug trip I think the 3 tabs of 25B I took were more than the 1 mg advertised. Extreme euphoria but also extreme side effects I was almost certain I was going to die by the end of the night by kidney failure or something. When I came up no matter how much water I drank it was like I was still in the most extreme thirst... Lol I always go off on tangents posting on this site but yup I don't recommend a psychs often or anyone taking 25B tabs.