Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[Thorns Have Roses]

If I was trying to sound "hard" as you claim then I wouldn't have said tolerance was a part of it would I?

Bragging (well, they may not mean it like that, but ya'know what I mean) about your tolerance is something people do when they're aimin' to sound hard, you may observe this behavior in some of our other subforums.

I look out the window and the universe looks fine.

It may just be a personality thing, maybe we've thought about death enough, and we're congenitally skeptical/empirical enough while sober that these things would never cross our minds.* Psychedelics have always made me feel alive, and I always feel like myself (even while perceiving the cosmic oneness) my while tripping. Though I've said, I've had death/rebirth experiences, but they were in a figurative sense, the universe, my body, and my selfness (which I don't believe in half the time anyway) were never in danger or subsumed, the 'realizations' parellel me, rather than subsume me, if you get what I'm saying.

Amped up rambling:

NSFW:

*From the things you've let slip here and there, I might be better saying we share an inclination to extreme pessimism and cynacism (a nihilistic streak that we did not ask for, and that we are unable to rid ourselves of), by nature or by experience. That might be totally wrong, but I think it isn't. If I'm on to something and you don't wanna say it here, PM me for some discussion (I've always respected you for countering the Buddhist inclinations of PDers with sensible descriptions of what it is in practice in places where it is as native as Christianity is here.

I feel ambivalently about the tradition myself, I like a lot of the things they say, but sometimes I think that as an organized religion, it boils down to "Buddha and his monks say, gimme free food, clothing, and shelter, and I'll pay you back with interest after you die." We don't have to get into the Tibetan theocracy, giving religious figures political power always ruins things, the Catholic Church didn't figure this out until the mid-twentieth century, when their faith in the fascists was proven misplaced, and democracies were their only defense against Communism. Ever notice that Fascism arose in Catholic countries? Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Hungary (to speak of nothing of the quasi-fascistic juntas of Latin America). The Vatican was given its status as an independent state by Il Duce. Please do not confuse National Socialism with Fascism, let us recollect that Austrian Fascist prime minister Engelbert Dollfuss was assassinated by nazis, after banning their party).

If you consider the doctrine of one sect I read, that a new Buddha arises when the teachings of the last have been forgotten, they're actually admitting that his teachings have a 100% failure rate. Also the nonattachment and opposition to suffering sit with me the wrong way due to my Catholic upbringing (I was an atheist by age 12, but as they say, you can take the boy out of Catholicism, but you can't take the Catholicism out of the boy), I suppose my feelings about monasticism are involved too, on the one hand I've always respected ascetics and celibates, but on the other, repudiating the world as an ideal is not very helpful given that we have to live in it (Judaism and Islam reject Catholic/Orthodox and Buddhist style monasticism, the former seems better off for it, the latter worse off). Plus, for claiming to be rational, or even scientific, I dare any Buddhist apologist to answer the questions: "How many years does it take your average monastic to reach enlightenment? How many buddhas have their been since Sakyamuni?"

For those who find this negative, you probably haven't read enough of my posts to realize that I have mostly good feelings about organized religion. Though I'm a stuffy intellectual type who yearns for the Old Gods (or at least idolizes Plato and Aristotle), as they are better for a pluralistic world, and naturalism (atheists don't have a monopoly on this, and I maintain that they are a passing fad).

 

[swilow]

^Fantastic rambling there Don't delete!

 

[Ismene]

I dunno, but reading your dismissal of ego death and the language you use to belittle it certainly implies that you think there is some weak, herd-like mentality at play.

That is a little tongue in cheek tho - in response to max and various people claiming how "hardcore" the experience is and that I need to "trip harder" to experience it.

Have you enjoyed 4-Ho-MET

I don't think so will - I tried one 4-Ho but I forget which one it was. Came on a lot quicker and stronger than mushrooms but was gone within 2 hours or so.

Bragging (well, they may not mean it like that, but ya'know what I mean) about your tolerance is something people do when they're aimin' to sound hard, you may observe this behavior in some of our other subforums.

I don't think people brag about their tolerance - if they're going to brag they tend to say they take astronomical doses while having the same tolerance as you. Obviously that's a lot more to brag about than admitting you have a tolerance.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^I meant with non-psychedelic drugs, particularly addicts. I have engaged in this myself in the past (I didn't think that it was laudable or made me better than anyone, it's more like miserable people trying to establish that they are not less worthy of their misery than others. It's also a gallows humor thing). See the people who take doses of benzos twenty times larger than therapeutically indicated everyday, persons who need to mention that they do a bundle a day (or even at once), to my tweeker friends I am reluctant to share information as to how much I use, or even exaggerate my usage (they are shocked and incredulous about how little I use, but they don't seem to appreciate how they as career addicts in their 30s and 40s might not appreciate that I can be doing just as much with fewer mg of substance), and perhaps in the true sense of bragging, we see it in stoners (especially the holier-than-thou types). Mentioning a high tolerance does not mitigate the mightiness of the dose, because you only get there by going farther than is wise with great regularity. So it's understandable that folk might read your statement that way.

in response to max and various people claiming how "hardcore" the experience is and that I need to "trip harder" to experience it.

This kinda attitude is responsible for the lion's share of opposition to the term ego death, and attempts to discredit it as far as politeness allows. as someone who values the low dose and productive experience (not that I have any problem with purely recreational and more far out things), I am very annoyed at the implicit endorsement, I might say peer pressure, exerted upon psychedelic neophytes to consider more better with these drugs in an attempt attain ego death, which many persons seem to view as a coming of age ceremony.

 

[Kl519]

"Ego death" is just a blanket term to describe the highest state of "being fucked up on a psychedelic drug." That's what I've gotten from reading about it. I haven't heard anyone claiming to experience one sober, unless they were a monk or a meditation wizard. Now, when you get to SOME reports given from users, that's when I can see your skepticism from there. They aren't specific. They just say stuff like, "I saw God. I died. I saw the Universe and became one with it." So what does that even mean? What did they see? Hear? Anything that isn't vague? It doesn't explain anything, really. Would those same people have called their experiences an "ego death" if they were previously unaware of it? Ultimately I have no clue whether they actually had one or not, but when it's said like that I can see why someone will doubt it.


Though this is not to say what "ego death" is described as doesn't exist. It's just a terrible term to describe a fully immersive psychedelic trip. I would describe it, specifically, as the point in which the person becomes almost catatonic and unable to grasp the level of intoxication AT FIRST, and then the mind suddenly gets to a place where realizations happen one after another. Deep seated realizations-- where it comes at a subconscious level, and you take on an uncharacteristically extroverted way of thinking. You lose your ability to perceive how you normally would, specifically since we all directly relate to our world from our sense of self, that part of your thought process is gone for the most part. Is this an "ego death" though? It's more like an "ego loss," because your sense of self didn't die, but it's temporarily lost because you're not capable of thinking that way on that level of a trip. It's a characteristic of that high of a psychedelic trip, much like people will get that "frying" effect on all types of psychedelics. You'll lose your ego in many aspects, but not completely in my opinion, during such an experience. I could describe my own trip like that, but it'd take too much time. My biggest gripe is that I believe an ego loss type of experience will vary between "subtypes" of users, but that's something else.

The term has simply become glorified and thrown about haphazardly, but I don't doubt people have experienced a trip that would equate to one. I'm sure a lot have, given how much people can abuse drugs, how many there are, the dosages they've taken, etc. It's possible that people have "seen God," or became "One with the Universe" because at the very least, someone could be hallucinating that, or have wished to see that from the depths of their psyche. So that's what they saw, I suppose. But as far as the term being used like it's the word "the," I would agree that it's ridiculous. I've abused stuff for more than a decade but I've only had 3 such experiences. IME in each one of them, I had to have taken a super high dose, bad trip in the beginning and then it must turn into a good trip almost at once and thereafter. The whole dying aspect of it is understandable because a lot of normal, cognitive functions start to become heavily impaired or seem like they're shutting down. If that's what dying feels like, I wouldn't be surprised.

My 2 cents.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Good post.

I've never "seen god" specifically, I have realized I am "god", that we all are. I also believe that trips come from your own subconscious and conscious mind. However, I believe that our subconscious minds hold much more information than we are typically aware of, including perhaps information about the origins and nature of our lives. The first time I tripped was my most significant ego death/loss type of experience. I went into it believing that we are all just dust and there is no higher existence or meaning and that when we die, we cease to exist (I had turned away from Christianity and had gotten to a pretty bleak sort of place in my beliefs). I expected to feel crazy and see crazy things and laugh a lot. What happened instead was that I woke up into the oneness. I did not think I had died, in fact it was very peaceful. It felt just like I woke up from a dream, but the dream was my physical life as Xorkoth. When I woke up, I simply KNEW, just as when you wake up from a dream you know it was a dream, and you chuckle at yourself for believing it was the entirety of your reality. I had absolutely no idea that something like that could happen, it was brand new information and it changed my entire world after I came back down. I actually only took 1.75 to 2 grams of mushrooms on that trip too (though it was my very first trip and they were really strong mushrooms).

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

My 2 cents.

Thank you, where have you come from with your readable and reasonable post?

My biggest gripe is that I believe an ego loss type of experience will vary between "subtypes" of users, but that's something else.

Bingo, as you said, the term being used with a definite article is bad. Anecdotal data seems to suggest it's a set of experiences, people respond to the same stimulus differently, especially with regards to psychedelia, yet by the fallacy of misplaced concreteness we have Ego Death/Loss rather than ego loss/dissolution.

Upon further thought, since Freud's work is as archaic as it is ubiquitous, my problem is the term ego, maybe be we recognize the difference between the old and new usage, but subconsciously, I can't help but feel it is inextricably connected with Freudian psychoanalytic theory. Or maybe I just have something against Freud and am trying to rationalize a personal antipathy for him.

"seen god"

I'd assume that seen is meant to mean "perceived," as in, "I see what you mean." But I'm guessing you're saying that your experience of God's immanence is at odds with experiences you've read about that perceive God's transcendence. A pantheistic vs monotheistic experience, we might say?

I expected to feel crazy and see crazy things and laugh a lot. What happened instead was that I woke up into the oneness. I did not think I had died, in fact it was very peaceful. It felt just like I woke up from a dream, but the dream was my physical life as Xorkoth.

Oh, I love that sort of experience. I decided that we did not truly cease to exist (which is to say we do not truly exist to begin with), as we're just a swirl of dust and water that swirls about the earth's surface for a moment, and you're not dead because what you truly are is still out there. You have to laugh when you see that we are only slightly more complicated than thunderstorms or the swiftly-and-ever-changing (or at least it was, until we 'fixed' it) course and composition of the Mississippi, and then look at how seriously the world takes itself, though it must as it is the nature of the human organism (and they are beautiful in their own way for that, each and every little swirl that ever was, however brief or seemingly insignificant that data pattern we call human was self-sustaining). I got into this state fairly regularly while tripping, it probably helps that I am a determinist, aside from the stuff described earlier.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Just a reply about Max-Freakouts implication that the dated and possibly discredited medical literature that he bases many "truths" upon is... well it's from the 70's hey? Wow that is some up to date clinical data there. Psychedelics as can any class of drug are possible of causing drug induced psychosis. To believe otherwise is BS. To say one text book printed and peer evaluated (I assume it has been?) that is almost 40 years old is more relevant than current pharmacological, evidence based practice is... well laughable. I assume lobotomies would be included as standard practice in that 40 year old text? No doubt Phenobarbital was still being prescribed for acute psychosis in your 1970's text as well. To look at one source that supports one argument vs many sources that discredit it is... well not best clinical practice.

Evidence based practice is best clinical practice. The DSMV is not a nursing text it's the diagnostic and statistic manual 5 for psychiatrists to utilize. Psychedelics not psychotomimetic? Well hate to say it but NBOME's have proven to be very psychotomimetic. Some tryptamine subtypes as well. Medical model is not perfect but to say quasi-intellectual new age spiritualism with it's many scientific methodologies utilized to prove the theories that abound... well I'm really taking the piss now. Mate you study philosophy and ancient history I'll study medicine and pharmacology. We both win.

Kl519 thank you for making a post that is balanced and informative. Not overly biased one way or another. Whatever you want to term it "ego death" or "drug induced psychosis" as long as the experience allows greater insight into your self as a person and makes you more aware of your own faults, makes one attempt to rectify or acknowledge such short comings is a positive outcome no matter what label we prescribe to the experience.

 

[max_freakout]

This post ^ bears no relation whatsoever to anything I have said, I think lovepsychadelics forgot to take his medication again....

 

[lovepsychadelics]

^ Hey I'm not the one experiencing psychotic breaks from reality and making out I'm an intellectual to justify said experience. You keep those 70's psych texts they may one day be worth something. Max please don't try and insult someone with your somewhat limited wit and lack of knowledge of psychiatric diagnosis. Your "experiences" as you describe them seem to form a very concrete diagnosis... drug induced psychosis with delusional thought disorder. If you want to call it ego death cool. I'd rather we veered away from this topic and instead focused on positive outcomes from such experiences.

Of course your more than welcome to focus on the "ego death" aspect as you have defined it... using both Freud and Greek philosophy to back an argument that has no real substance or context. One minute you argue in one direction and the next another both being skewed from your own preconceived notions. I'm not trying to say your wrong or that "ego death" does not exist. I'm saying your label for what you experienced is one you assign to it and it is that of "ego death". From my perspective it seem's that your description of the experience has clearly identifiable features of a drug induced psychosis.

Medical model vs philosophical, T. KcKenna, Tim Leary etc view/justification for what they considered profound insights. A manic sufferer of Bipolar effective Disorder may also consider themselves to have profound insight especially when hypermainic. Drugs and I mean ALL drugs are capable of inducing psychosis. Believe it or don't just be a big boy and don't try and belittle people with such childish retorts. They make you seem somewhat pathetic. Yes my post bears a lot of relevance to your expounding whatever beliefs you chose to. You said psychedelic drugs do not cause any sort of psychotomimetic reaction among users. I beg to differ. Each to their own I'm simply showing the coins other side.

 

[max_freakout]

You said psychedelic drugs do not cause any sort of psychotomimetic reaction among users.

you are attacking paranoid little strawmen, i have never said anything like this ^

On the contrary, psychedelic drugs are very well known and widely recognised for triggering psychosis-like states of consciousness. The core of the ego death phenomenon revolves around psychotic mental dis-integration. In an intense trip, the mind can fall apart at the seams, and when it does the tripper can see the underlying cognitive structures that are usually hidden, that is why these drugs are called "mind revealers". Just like the crystalline structure of a glass vase is hidden until the vase shatters.

The term "psychotomimetic" ie "psychosis mimicking" was just an early, first-approximation stab at characterising the LSD effect while "psychedelic" ie "mind revealing" is a later, more accurate and relevant characterisation. So it isnt wrong to say that LSD mimics psychosis, it is just less accurate than saying that it "reveals the mind".

A good analogy that Mckenna used was that the surface of water is invisible until it ripples, the mind is invisible until it is "rippled" by psychedelics - hence:"mind revealing".

 

[pmoseman]

"Ripple"

Ripple in still water,
When there is no pebble tossed,
Nor wind to blow.
...
Let it be known there is a fountain,
That was not made by the hands of men.

 

[Kl519]

Thanks Xorkoth, THR and lovepsychadelics. I felt like this thread needed a little more contribution on the topic. The sense of self really does become heavily impaired at the pinnacle of a psychedelic experience. I was lucky enough to get that recently from miprocin once, but for me that stage is elusive and it had been a really long time since I last had one.

The term "ego death" isn't accurate in my opinion, but the description of what it is definitely happens and exists. People will just perceive it differently, and rightfully so.

Oh, and I've been a lurker since the early 2000's. I used Pill Reports a lot, and from there I found BL. Finally decided to join to ask important questions, heh.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

i have never said anything like this

Hahahahha, he seems to have conflated us. Allow me to take responsibility for what's mine.

insult someone with your somewhat limited wit

So you knew I was joking at the serious concern over a negligible cardiac risk? I admit it was tactless, but you implied that I had an allegiance with Newagers and Leary. We'll call it even.

Upon further reading, it seems the term psychotomimetic is indeed used more broadly than I thought. Thank you for that correction.

Drugs and I mean ALL drugs are capable of inducing psychosis.

But you would not call ALL drugs psychotomimetic, because of a few instances here and there. Certainly we have folks who have psychedelic induced psychotic breaks, but I would not place the vast majority of experiences under that category. I find it odd that a PDer would adopt the term, as it seems unlikely that psychosis would be a useful learning tool (also, consider the connotations of that word), but I'll ask the shadow people for a second opinion on that.

do not cause any sort of psychotomimetic reaction among users.

I said that psychedelic drugs are not psychotomimetic. Like how paradoxical reactions to benzodiazapines would not lead me to categorize them as psychostimulants. In the future, when analyzing arguments, you come across a statement that is unclear due to the a lack of a quantifier, you should insert the quantifier that will make that argument as strong as possible, inserting the weakest is poor form and not conducive to a meaningful exchange of ideas


As for the book, my meaning may have been clearer had I said "experience" rather than "drugs." Of course they had no understanding of the pharmacodynamics, they did not pretend to, but their characterization of the psychological effects is a hell of a lot more nuanced than describing them as simply "psychotis + a peppering of misleading perjoratives", like I've seen used in some recent texts. This is why I said it was a more clever/skillful understanding, not a more accurate technical understanding.


When we are here talking about the effects of psychedelic drugs, such as in this thread, we are trying to communicate our subjective experiences. The medical characterization of these drugs is inadequate for this purpose; the medicinal approach, and its lexicon, is devoted to fixing/managing troublesome physiological and psychological abnormalities. So you see, we have one vocabulary and interpretive lens for discussion of psychedelia, and another to use in HR threads.

Consider which universe of discourse an attempt to define and establish validity of the term Ego Death as a discrete psychedelic experience comes under.

 

[Ismene]

Regarding the "LSD causes psychosis" theory - I was recently reading "Albion dreaming" a book about LSD in the UK and a guy who'se taken LSD and been mentally ill says "I can assure you that tripping on LSD and being psychotic have absolutely nothing in common with each other. Nothing".

 

[max_freakout]

I was recently reading "Albion dreaming" a book about LSD in the UK

Check the 'acknowledgements' section at the front if you have the paperback version, my name is in there, Andy Roberts is an awesome guy

a guy who'se taken LSD and been mentally ill

is hardly qualified to dispute a well-known fact that generations of psychiatrists and psychologists have widely acknowledged

LSD may not be like his particular, individual experience of mental aberration, but LSd does cause a specific kind of "model psychosis" (ie the psychedelic kind) by temporarily dissolving cognitive associations during a trip

 

[max_freakout]

Hahahahha, he seems to have conflated us.

Ah ok that makes sense, i thought he was going off on another one of his rants, i was waiting for him to mention "palliative care" but he didnt....

it seems the term psychotomimetic is indeed used more broadly than I thought.

afaik that term never really caught on, and nowadays it is very rarely used. But when LSd was first being used by psychiatrists that was the first name for the class of drug that really stuck in the medical vernacular.

But you would not call ALL drugs psychotomimetic,

Only the psychedelics could accurately be called 'psychotomimetic', and that doesnt mean that they can cause lasting psychotic breaks, rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

you are attacking paranoid little strawmen, i have never said anything like this ^

On the contrary, psychedelic drugs are very well known and widely recognised for triggering psychosis-like states of consciousness. The core of the ego death phenomenon revolves around psychotic mental dis-integration. In an intense trip, the mind can fall apart at the seams, and when it does the tripper can see the underlying cognitive structures that are usually hidden, that is why these drugs are called "mind revealers". Just like the crystalline structure of a glass vase is hidden until the vase shatters.

The term "psychotomimetic" ie "psychosis mimicking" was just an early, first-approximation stab at characterising the LSD effect while "psychedelic" ie "mind revealing" is a later, more accurate and relevant characterisation. So it isnt wrong to say that LSD mimics psychosis, it is just less accurate than saying that it "reveals the mind".

A good analogy that Mckenna used was that the surface of water is invisible until it ripples, the mind is invisible until it is "rippled" by psychedelics - hence:"mind revealing".

Whatever re-read your own posts. T McKenna was a nut. Justification for using psychedelic drugs? Do you take any other substances or is it all about the "psychedelic state of mind man"?. Your opinion Max and no one else's enjoy it!

BTW I don't justify my substance misuse. I have issues with poly pharmacology... of the illicit kind. Psychotomimetic... psychosis mimicking... psychosis. Ahhh... whatever... posting waffle on blue light does not make me the be all and end all of psychonaughts. People just be responsible and apply HR when doing drugs I guess that is really the crux of it. If you want an "ego death" experience just be as safe going about the experience as you can. IDK is this not a HR website about drug HR? Whatever Max freakout is the alpha and omega of psychedelic experiences. Any questions just PM the guy he knows all.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Only the psychedelics could accurately be called 'psychotomimetic'

Shall I brew you a nice pot of Datura Wrightii tea, before it's out of season? Quite a few BLers can tell you that the proper application of DA-ergic stimulants or NMDA can reliably induce psychosis, and it actually resembles the kind not caused by the consumption of exogenous neuroligands.

You don't see how a field that arose from attempts to fix people who think/act differently is congenitally incapable of treating certain phenomena with the proper care? Namely, those that go against social norms, as homosexuals and feminists of yore can attest, and transgendered persons today. I submit to you that a class of drugs that induce experiences generally characterized as positive and liable to induce lasting beneficial changes, as psychology has had to admit in the last few years, seem substantially dissimilar from the traditional conception of psychosis. As things progress scientifically, the psychedelic experience might be moved to a category other than that reserved for the most debilitating expressions of mental illness.

Also, I would like to point out, that just like with Ego Death, we are discussing the appropriateness of set or subset of experiences being identified with a certain nomenclature, due to the vagueness and questionable utility of said nomenclature in accurately categorizing those experiences, and whether the use of this nomenclature facilitates or impairs a mutually intelligible discourse about them.

 

[Ismene]

LSD may not be like his particular, individual experience of mental aberration, but LSd does cause a specific kind of "model psychosis" (ie the psychedelic kind) by temporarily dissolving cognitive associations during a trip

Isn't the "model psychosis" a theory from way back in the 50s offered by psychiatrists who'd never taken the drug and just assumed psychedelics must be psychotic? Do we have any evidence of anyone mentally ill who claims "My psychosis was just like being on LSD"?