EADD Theology Thread - Chapter III: Trinity

[the_gay_blade]

Not all sects declare themselves to be the one true church. A lot of Protestants believe in an invisible church that accommodates all believers. But for the record, it's the little shack in Rome.

 

[Vurtual]

Got any time for Liberation theology? that's the bit of catholicism i can most relate to (John 23rd Vatican II and all that) i also like teillhard de chardin, but more from a science/sci fi angle (omega point)

 

[the_gay_blade]

Uh-huh. Vatican II and certain strains of scholasticism were the clinchers in helping me to understand how I could come back to the fold. I really, really needed the blunt instrument of DMT in order to catalyse, however.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Another blunt instrument couldn't possibly do you any harm.

 

[the_gay_blade]

Thanks. I'll smoke a blunt the noo.

 

[Vurtual]

Uh-huh. Vatican II and certain strains of scholasticism were the clinchers in helping me to understand how I could come back to the fold. I really, really needed the blunt instrument of DMT in order to catalyse, however.

Fair enough - i'd need dmt (at least) to be a catholic (the wine just aint enough (chuck some acid on the wafer though and maybe...) - but i'll be up on the barricades with the south american liberation theologists any time you like (we could do with their like here in europe (the cia saw that off though (with the help of the last few popes)). I like some of the stuff Francis has said, but it worries me that he was involved in the supression of Liberation theology in earlier years (not as deeply as Ratzinger was though)

Btw - if you don't mind me asking, what is your name referring to?

 

[dan88]

I don't think I've ever broke through on dmt. Maybe once, I felt like I was in a temple of some sort, with these alien creatures meditating, however I'm sure if I wasn't concentrating I'd have been able to see the real world

 

[Raasyvibe]

But it's world's apart from being told 'why' by a rich and powerful organisation who's only motive is to control the masses and further their own agenda...

lol, he's too damn sharp...


'fret not, there's plenty of other vulnerable people in this world willing to have a Christian dogma impressed upon them

I don't think I've ever broke through on dmt. Maybe once, I felt like I was in a temple of some sort, with these alien creatures meditating, however I'm sure if I wasn't concentrating I'd have been able to see the real world

DMT was the most humbling experience of my life, that made me at least reconsider my nihilism.

I need another blast.

Anyone who has had DMT aint going to buy into Christian dogma. It definitely makes many take a spiritualist outlook but makes you look at organised religion and laugh. It certainly had that effect on me.

I've inferred that DMT is a very stark form of Spiritualism. That the chemical reaction inside of the brain, actually works as a summon for entities outside of earth who seem intent on using the experience to impart spiritual knowledge.

From Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

"Spiritualism is a belief that spirits of the dead have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living. The afterlife, or "spirit world", is seen by spiritualists, not as a static place, but as one in which spirits continue to evolve. These two beliefs: that contact with spirits is possible, and that spirits are more advanced than humans, leads spiritualists to a third belief, that spirits are capable of providing useful knowledge about moral and ethical issues,"

Cannabis, Mushrooms and LSD are also forms of spiritualism [which, for me throws in another aspect as to why the government are so keen to prohibit them] though DMT appears to give the most intense spiritual experience.

 

[Fug]

I dunno, can't say I felt like I was dealing with spirits of the dead whilst on DMT.

And can't say whatever it seemed like they were communicating, that it had anything to do with morality or ethical issues.
[MENTION=270890]Raasyvibe[/MENTION] Have you ever smoked DMT? Or just heroin?

 

[Vurtual]

I've inferred that DMT is a very stark form of Spiritualism. That the chemical reaction inside of the brain, actually works as a summon for entities outside of earth who seem intent on using the experience to impart spiritual knowledge.

From Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

"Spiritualism is a belief that spirits of the dead have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living. The afterlife, or "spirit world", is seen by spiritualists, not as a static place, but as one in which spirits continue to evolve. These two beliefs: that contact with spirits is possible, and that spirits are more advanced than humans, leads spiritualists to a third belief, that spirits are capable of providing useful knowledge about moral and ethical issues,"

Cannabis, Mushrooms and LSD are also forms of spiritualism [which, for me throws in another aspect as to why the government are so keen to prohibit them] though DMT appears to give the most intense spiritual experience.

That would all rely on believing in "entities outside of earth who seem intent on using the experience to impart spiritual knowledge" - which is pretty barking as far as i can tell. Psychedelics manifest your mind (clue's in the name) - minds include stuff like gods and spirits (and machine elves, space demons, vague feminie presences, and senses of the numinous), so you might see some of that shit (or not). Rather than being all nihilist about this, why not just worship the amazing human mind (god's in there anyway, whether exclusively or not). As the buddhist koan says "who is the great magician who makes the grass green?" (answer for the lazy: "You are", meaning the same thing that kant (kant) says)

Any opinion of the Santo Daimo church (and would you be prepared to do DMT in that spiritual context?)

 

[Eveleivibe]

I believe in Spirituality but do struggle with how one can claim to see spirits etc from the consumption of drugs. Surely it's hallucinations that people are having? One day I would like to try DMT but I am trying no more drugs untill little one is older as she comes first from now on.

That aside, I am interested in people that claim to hace see spirits etc after psychedelics. Although I find it difficult to believe in spirituality via drugs I am open minded n interested in hearing other people's experiences.

I'm a Christian but this stems from school assembles, my Nain n long talks with her. I also had a children's Bible though I don't know where that is. I also don't believe in challenging this as it's my faith. This is kinda paradoxical considering my psychological background (which basically was a psychology n accreditation to the BPS that I'm no longer a member of for not paying the £160 annual fee. Oops i could pay n re join if within 18 months but do 't have £160). But yea thus taught me to challenge everything so rather conflicting n makes me uncomfortable.

I feel that God has always been there for me, has helped. He's not always answered how He wants but what He knows best. I just would not feel right if I didn't believe, I'd feel disloyal.

Evey

 

[Fug]

Raas was inferring from my quote that I claimed to see spirits/become spiritual - never did. I could only describe what I encountered as 'entities' or at times 'alien gods'....

Could all just be garbage my brain is spewing out because of a drug - but that isn't the point - the point is the experience is felt subjectively and it's real when it's happening to you.

To an onlooker I might just be drooling in my lap...but I may have just travelled somewhere so deep into hyperspace where not even the most annoying of trolls could escape.

Drugs and spirituality go back thousands of years - look at shamanism anywhere in any ancient cultures. Just so happens Christianity is one of the major religions that has suppressed and banned all the 'voodoo' as devil worship probably.

I come from a long line of orthodox christian priests in the area of the world it originated from. Do I feel like I have any connection to something that alledgly happened 2000 years ago there? No.

Which is why I find it even more ridiculous when people halfway across the world have adopted it as their own belief system. Then used the crusades to come back and rape the locals...thanks for the ginger in my beard whichever one of you that was.

 

[consumer]

I remember reading a story about some christian missionaries trying to convert a tribe in the Amazon that used Ayahuasca. The shaman asked the missionary had he ever met his god. The missionary replied "of course not" to which the entire tribe burst out laughing. "Well we have so take your god somewhere else"

I truly dont believe DMT is just a drug. The experiences are so beyond any other substance i have ever consumed. Why is it so ubiquitous in nature? Plants, animals, in our own brain. Its literally everywhere as Shulgin wrote. I firmly believe its the greatest unutilised tool that we have. What is its purpose i have no idea. But its here for a reason. It does not answer any questions it just asks more. It has changed me in so many ways. It cured me of bipolar disorder ten years ago. I experienced a giant "download" of shapes, symbols and numbers which went directly into my brain and after i came out of that particular trip i was filled with happiness and love that has never left me. I have not had any bipolar issues since. What happened? Fucked if i know but it felt like i was reprogrammed. And it turned out i was. Its powerful medicine.

 

[Vurtual]

I believe in Spirituality but do struggle with how one can claim to see spirits etc from the consumption of drugs. Surely it's hallucinations that people are having? ...

The same can be said about people who see/talk to spirits but don't take any drugs - but it's probably more worrying than the drugs in most cases - seeing that sort of stuff when you take psychedelics is pretty 'normal' (but be warned: being the fickle mind, if you go in wanting spirits, you're as likely to come across devils or souless robots or nothing at all (the mind's like that - like trying not to think about elephants)

Also, as i understand it spirituality doesn't really mean that you specifically believe in individual spirits that go somewhere after death (that's spiritualism i guess). My view is i believe in the soul/spirit, but there's only one and we all share it (i could just call it 'life' or feynmans single electron (or brahman)) - this is a pragmatically chosen belief (albeit influenced by intution, psychedelic experience and my hippy/buddhist parents) it matters not how 'true' it is.

Faith can be a dodgy one: faith in a person is one thing (a big component of love), similar to faith in humanity - but faith in a written dogma or an authority can't logically be required of any putative 'loving god' when that very loving god is meant to have created the curiosity and thirst for knowledge that questions the basis of the faith in the first place. If there is a creator god of that sort, the critical thinking, questioning, iconoclastic, rebellious aspects of our nature would be some of her best works - only a non-loving god would have made that as a trap for those not sufficiently pious (bit like sex really). Faith that 'everything will be alright in the end' is better, but faith in some divine plan that everything happens for a reason risks a person not doing stuff they might have otherwise - unless you say the plan already included you making your individual decisions (which makes it no plan). Sorry Evey that wasn't a rant at you - you were just my theological jumping off point

...

Consumer: Occams razor pulls me toward the mind being the source of the DMT experience, but to me that doesn't diminish the magicalness of it at all, considering that if you follow Kant (and neuroscience) the entire universe in any way we can know it is effectively in there to start with.

 

[Vurtual]

woopsie a double post (the dmt elves nudged my elbow cos i was dissing them)

 

[consumer]

The same can be said about people who see/talk to spirits but don't take any drugs - but it's probably more worrying than the drugs in most cases - seeing that sort of stuff when you take psychedelics is pretty 'normal' (but be warned: being the fickle mind, if you go in wanting spirits, you're as likely to come across devils or souless robots or nothing at all (the mind's like that - like trying not to think about elephants)

Also, as i understand it spirituality doesn't really mean that you specifically believe in individual spirits that go somewhere after death (that's spiritualism i guess). My view is i believe in the soul/spirit, but there's only one and we all share it (i could just call it 'life' or feynmans single electron (or brahman)) - this is a pragmatically chosen belief (albeit influenced by intution, psychedelic experience and my hippy/buddhist parents) it matters not how 'true' it is.

Faith can be a dodgy one: faith in a person is one thing (a big component of love), similar to faith in humanity - but faith in a written dogma or an authority can't logically be required of any putative 'loving god' when that very loving god is meant to have created the curiosity and thirst for knowledge that questions the basis of the faith in the first place. If there is a creator god of that sort, the critical thinking, questioning, iconoclastic, rebellious aspects of our nature would be some of her best works - only a non-loving god would have made that as a trap for those not sufficiently pious (bit like sex really). Faith that 'everything will be alright in the end' is better, but faith in some divine plan that everything happens for a reason risks a person not doing stuff they might have otherwise - unless you say the plan already included you making your individual decisions (which makes it no plan). Sorry Evey that wasn't a rant at you - you were just my theological jumping off point

...

Consumer: Occams razor pulls me toward the mind being the source of the DMT experience, but to me that doesn't diminish the magicalness of it at all, considering that if you follow Kant (and neuroscience) the entire universe in any way we can know it is effectively in there to start with.

It could be but it is so immersive and incredibly interactive i think there is more too it than that. Its way beyond being called an hallucinatory experience. Its beyond description. I would certainly put more faith in my many life changing experiences each one unique on DMT than some book of fairy tales with rubbish like Noah and his Ark and the animals two by two.

Who knows. But i am far from alone having become spiritual after DMT. Nick Sands two essays on DMT give a great overview of the sacred nature of the substance. He was the first person to ever smoke it and made and used it for over 40 years thousands of times. If you are interested in the sacred side of DMT his words are very interesting. Easy to find them using google.

 

[consumer]

An interesting thread on DMT and spirituality has started in PD. I am too tired to contribute at this point but i will when i can think of something other than sleep

 

[Shambles]

The Bleak Future for Religion in the UK in 5 Charts

New poll puts Brits with "No Religion" ahead of describing themselves as "Christian" for the first time. The other charts are also not great for religious believers. Increasing numbers of people "losing" the religion they were born into, ever-dwindling church attendance, ever-ageing Church attendees. All seems pretty self-evident to me but they managed to find some religious folk to say that it doesn't suggest any of that at all. Obviously.

 

[consumer]

The Bleak Future for Religion in the UK in 5 Charts

New poll puts Brits with "No Religion" ahead of describing themselves as "Christian" for the first time. The other charts are also not great for religious believers. Increasing numbers of people "losing" the religion they were born into, ever-dwindling church attendance, ever-ageing Church attendees. All seems pretty self-evident to me but they managed to find some religious folk to say that it doesn't suggest any of that at all. Obviously.

Cue popular REM song

 

[steewith2ees]

I don't believe in anything as IMO the notion completely contradicts the description of faith.

Edit - without derailing the thread once the both hemispheres of my brain have caught up with each I'm going to find the cosmology thread that i started but was too lazy to contribute towards - thankfully Shambles has been giving it occasional bouts of cpr so it shouldn't be to far down the road to bump.