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Do not mess with 25i, my roomate tried to kill me last night

I'd need evidence of this solipsis - I've taken some incredible doses and never remotely felt violent. Neither has anyone I've ever known. Similarly I've been drunk and never been violent.

To illustrate: alcohol tends to cause people to throw up and/or fall asleep before they ever get to a delirium state sort of point, but I'm pretty sure that if you take it far enough you can have a 'blackout' in which behavior can turn pretty primal.

I've never really bought into the idea "the alcohol made me do it". You become violent because you WANT to be violent and the alcohol frees your inhibitions. If you don't want to become violent on alcohol then you don't become violent. There's always a pretty strong link between the people who are violent on alcohol and the people who are violent anyway. You don't tend to get the Dali Lama having 3 pints and attempting to murder somebody.

It can be interpreted as another way of saying that extreme episodes don't usually tend to happen in people who are mentally very well

I'm sure you can have extreme episodes - I'm just questioning whether those episodes would involve homicidal violence. There's a big difference between having an extreme episode and becoming psychotically violent.

Hard to prove anything like this off the top of my head, anyways...
My personal experience tells me that for me it was in a certain way the opposite actually: the problem can be that rather than wanting to be angry or violent, anger or violence gets repressed. The only time I've been violent on alcohol was in Poland on crazy amounts of vodka, and there were people (my friends at the time) who were continuously annoying and provoking me and each other. I am rarely ever violent and I tend to freeze rather than explode, in self-defense. I tend to be highly controlling of my feelings, reactions and behavior in general.
But when I drank enough to sufficiently lose self-control / memory / self-awareness, everything I had repressed came crashing out. I even attacked strangers in the streets of Cracow, it would just be incorrect to say that deep down I wanted to do this, but it was obviously part of feelings I developed in reaction to provocation.
On GHB it was not uncommon for me to be okay with sleeping with people I wouldn't otherwise have touched with a 10 ft pole.
With LSD and alprazolam it was similar for me in that I behaved unrestrained. I believe the benzo made me temporarily blank out of my conscience / modesty / shame, etc.. I wouldn't say that these drugs made me do the things I did, they were just inside me as part of things that I felt and thought but wouldn't otherwise have told people in their faces. So I would disagree that it is as simple as that people want to do what they do while disinhibited, rather there are tendencies and urges living inside of people whether they want to or not and they can surface if you impair the control.
I don't mean to say that as a way to excuse people for what they do under the influence of drugs... but IMO it is fair to add some nuance to the actual evaluation of intention. We need to make a distinction between rational decisions that make us want something or irrational and subconscious processes, even instinct that make us have tendencies.

I believe that whether people are able to do something extreme or violent is not as simple as "I would never kill someone" or something like that, if we get a strong motive to do so, what holds us back is ultimately our self-control. I'm very anti-violence under normal conditions but if my own survival depends on it and laws would cease to exist I would never be so arrogant as to claim that my principles wouldn't change. "Wanting" may not apply anymore at that point!

Someone freaking out on a psychedelic with violent behavior may possibly be caused by an unfortunate combination of strong disinhibition, repressed anger as a result of certain difficult or frustrating experiences / factors and indeed existential confusion and terror such as is often seen with say Salvia. If a person regresses to such an extreme state, apparently in the case of this thread the guy felt like everything was inconsequential, like the opposite of synchronicity maybe IDK... the repressed anger may just start manifesting as violence, while normal conscience is impaired.
A lot of the same factors as with schizophrenia-related psychosis may be there but who ever said you can't get the same factors via another recipe?

The reason I said that drug-induced psychotic behavior wouldn't last much longer than the drug effects is that the mental disposition on its own wouldn't be enough of the recipe to sustain the psychosis-like state. I think I read enough train-wreck accounts in general to be able to claim that a significant number / most of them do not persist. The ones that do persist are evidence of either trauma derived from the episode or a mental state instable on its own where the psychosis is precipitated rather than emolated / i.e. for the most part induced.


^This.

When I was younger I used to spend many nights out getting messed up on alcohol and various substances sometimes people would "freak out" "get weird" become violent. It was people that had problems to begin with. The guy that was angry at his GF would get wasted start fights, punch walls, etc. The guy that was always "off" would start getting creepy and say dark weird things.

You go into a poor redneck bar that has fights every weekend - Then you go to a nicer place with nice well refined happy people that have no fight anyone can think of- Why?

Yes, I tried to make it clear in my previous post that I am not opposed to the fact that the mindset is essential regarding what thoughts, feelings or behavior are inhibited, repressed or not anymore. I definitely agree with you guys on that, but concluding on the whole matter that all psychotic behavior from drug freak outs has a latent psychotic aspect seems really wrong to me.
 
I guess after some thought I am beginning to agree with Solipsis, when I think of deleriants, I could see how they could make anyone undergo a psychotic episode.
A heavy dose of scopolamine could leave even the gentlest person in a drug induced psychosis.
Any with 25i compared to other psychedelics, I would easily agree it is more likely to cause states of confusion and mindloops.
I've been incredibly high on LSD, more so visually and mentally than 25i, and smoked pot and been fine, however twice on 25i when I added cannabis to the mixture it produced periods of confusion, and on one occasion I was babbling nonsense for hours.
I have heard of many other stories from forum members stating the same thing.
I'm not sure if it is due to how potent of an agonist it is but it definitely seems to be more prevalent with NBOMe chemicals.
Now whether this confused state could initiate violent psychotic states in absolutely anyone I guess it would be foolish to say so with such confidence, however general mental stability and how prone the individual is to violence and fits of anger I would say is a much more deciding factor than the dosage the person did or what drugs they mixed with their psychedelics.
 
How far can we take this argument tho Reverend? Is it possible that the next time my girlfriend leaves I'll go round and beat her to death with a lump hammer? Because someone once did it that means everyone is liable to do it? It simply isn't going to happen. There's more chance of walking to the moon in my bare feet.

Ok, I think where your problem lies. I'm not using my reasoning to defend people who act violently and hurt other people. All I am saying is that it does happen. It really does. And I'm a firm believer in the healing potential of psychedelics. But at the same time, I also believe that finetuning all the variables embodied in 'drug', 'set' and 'setting' is essential to releasing and employing this potential. And that is exactly where the problem lies for most recreational users - especially newbies who end up in much deeper territory than they bargained for. That's also why I am convinced that it's muuuuuch more unlikely for a serious adverse event to occur in societies where use of psychedelic substances has been ritualized and embedded in a culture for ages.

Yes, I believe people can react negatively to psychedelics, a small percentage who can't handle their high might run down the street naked save for one sock. But it's going to be an even smaller percentage who then physically attack someone else. That's a boundary that the vast majority of people simply couldn't cross. No matter how high your psychedelic dose is. When you hear someone screaming in fear and pain it stops pretty much everyone from inflicting more violence -no matter how much acid you've had.
I guess you have to have been there to believe it. :)

Not admitting that it's a possibility and not accepting that it does happen is a bit close-minded, I think.

I think it's more to do with my respect and love for psychedelics. I don't want them getting the blame for every idiot who attacks someone the next time he's on acid. It's a classic excuse that every criminal uses - "I was drunk, I'd taken acid, I'd taken ecstasy for 3 days - that's why I killed that guy who looked at me funny". I don't buy it.
I see the reasons for your defending psychedelics, but I do think it's important to realize that it is possible...

But anyway, we probably disagree on that and I can respect that. It's always nice to openly debate with someone without the discussion turning into some kind of flame war. Thanks. :)

[edit] Also, for some reason I hadn't even thought of deliriants - they're a good example where a class of substances can cause even the ordinarily sanest person into a raving, drooling, fanatic lunatic. Again: trust me. ;) Same goes for combining benzos and alcohol by the way. I've heard plenty of stories of perfectly normal people doing really fucked up shit and not even realizing it. Not in the moment, and afterwards neither.
 
Hmm. As much as I tend towards Copernican principles that 'we are not special', I just don't know if I accept the idea that anybody is vulnerable to perpetrating violence when tripping, if the conditions are right.

I mentioned anti-anthropocentrism because if we are not special – as a species or as individual people – then it follows that nobody should be unique or special in comparison to everybody else by being 'immune to the possibility of doing violence whilst on psychedelics'. Anti-anthropocentrism derives its meaning in the traditional sense through astronomy: first that the Earth isn't the center of the universe, and follows the sun; next that the sun isn't actually unique either, being a member of the G-type main sequence stellar population; then that the Milky Way isn't unique either, being just one of billions of galaxies, many of which share its spiral morphology, such as the somewhat larger galaxy Andromeda in our Local Group; and ultimately even that our galaxy cluster is not any different from the rest of the filaments and clusters in the universe, that the universe is homogenous in composition, being a web formed from strings of galaxies, with clusters appearing where such filaments meet, with voids – bubbles of mostly empty space – separating the filaments. The anisotropic nature of the cosmic microwave background radiation is in some sense the ultimate proof that we inhabit a universe that looks pretty much the same in any direction we care to point our instruments.

Philosophically, while the anti-anthropocentric concept was originally devised in relation to our position as a species in the cosmos, it can also be applied to individuals or populations of individuals amongst the sum total of the Earth's population. This says basically that there's not really any difference between any two given people as far as superiority or inferiority, just differences in education, socioeconomic status, and so forth. This isn't to say that nurture trumps nature as far as determining who we are as people, and in fact it doesn't really have much to do with that dichotomy. It doesn't really say anything specific about a given person either – that's the point! We feel as though the world revolves around ourselves to one degree or another, but this is a perceptual fallacy, simply a product of the nature of our consciousness, not a reflection of any inherent 'special-ness' etc. of a given person.

This would lead then to the concept that if one person – or more appropriately many people – is capable of freaking out violently on psychedelic drugs, chances are that this latent property exists in everybody, it is just a question of probability whether it will manifest or not. The probability of this happening then would be affected by factors such as whether or not somebody has a history of mental illness, or even devoid of such a history whether they have any underlying mental issues that could pop up as a result of taking a trip. This probability would also be affected by whether or not the person has a strong mental sense of self, whether they are skilled at controlling and manipulating altered states, especially psychedelic states. It would also be affected by set and setting.

So if I'm going to be consistent with the anti-anthropic principles I hold, then I'd have to admit this is a possibility for anybody who is tripping, subject to forcing factors that determine the probability of freaking out. But at the same time it just goes against everything that I feel that I know about myself. I know myself very well, and I don't lie to myself, that's counterproductive as all hell. I know I possess the potential for violence, say if my family were threatened, but I don't think that I would freak out this way, being violent and going crazy.

I've felt the sort of impulses before on psychedelics that lead to Very Bad Things. Not violent impulses mind you, not at all, vey much the other side of the fight or flight response. I stepped in dog shit once on an assload of mushrooms when I was probably about 16, me and my buddy were in my backyard peaking bags of ballsacks and my parents were inside, and I remember crystal clear looking over my gate into the gangway thinking 'all I have to do is hop this gate, and run, never stop running, run and this will all be okay'. That's the sort of thing that leads to nonviolent freakouts, hiding in the bushes and shit. But I applied every piece of effort available to me, and fought the impulse to run to a standstill, and then killed it, because as far gone as I was I still knew that things could easily get out of hand if I gave even an inch of ground to the Fear.

Likewise, I have never been 'too fucked up', to the point where I would doubt my ability to handle the situation if some really bad shit went down, like somebody got hit by a car, or somebody else freaked the fuck out and went nuts, except on hard liquor. And thus I don't drink hard liquid, ever, period. I don't feel safe getting high on drugs unless I am fully assured of my capability to respond properly if some nastiness does go down, and so I control my dosages and choose not to use the one drug that adversely affects that capability. Even as a total, massive junkie, I have never been too fucked up. This was tested a grand total of seven fucking horrible, nightmarish times, when people have ODed and I have had to save their lives with narcan. Let me tell you, nothing sends you from totally blissed out hedonism to dead sober and deadly serious like somebody ODing and their life being literally in your hands, full stop.

So it's not just that I don't think that I'm capable of violent freakouts on psychedelics; I use the power of self-regulation to ensure that even if I am capable unknowingly of such a freakout, the situation or conditions that could bring about the release of those demons will never arise in the first place.

I guess the best way to reconcile the anti-anthropic principles I hold with my ironclad (but very much subjective) assurance that I would not ever freak out like this is to say that everybody possess the *possibility* of such an episode, but that the probability of the episode taking place wildly varies from person to person. I think that my mind and self-control is so strong that the probability of dreaming out violently is very, *very* low as it is, but it goes further, because what responsible drug use is all about is knowing that you must manipulate the preconditions and situations you will be in in the near future so as to *prevent* the conditions that might cause you to freak out – however unlikely that response may be – through a number of methods. This includes using drugs only if you know their provenance, know what compound it is, have the proper equipment to dose safely, arrange set and setting advantageously, and on and on.

Ultimately, you could sum it up as 'reduce your potential for harm', whatever that harm may be / regardless of the form that harm may take.

EDIT: I should also mention that minimizing the harm, no matter what form it takes, this applies also not only to ensuring that *you* don't freak out, but also that *others* don't freak out.

I recall this time in that same period of incredibly frequent mushroom use as the dog shit thing that a bunch of people that I was friends with came over to trip. One girl brought some dude that was her buddy I guess, but he was a known schizophrenic. I specifically told her 'do NOT give this kid psychedelic drugs', but she did secretly anyway, and we could tell he was starting to act odd, so I pried loose the information that she had in fact dosed him.

I had to take responsibility not just for myself, and not just for the property in the house I shared with my mother, but most importantly of all – more importantly even than my own safety – I had to ensure that everybody else there was safe. So I had to tell her to take her buddy and basically GTFO, take him somewhere where he can be watched, where he'll be safe. I gave them money for a cab, but she didn't want to leave.

Now, I'm not a confrontational person in real life (here in PD it may be another story :p). I hate drama, I don't like ordering people around, why can't we all get along, right? And I felt awful about it, mostly for the schizophrenic kid, since this would likely be an unpleasant thing to have to leave and get into a cab if confused and on drugs while mentally ill. The girl I didn't mind so much being strict with, she broke the house rules, she endangered us all. So I took her aside and threatened to call the cops, and *made* her leave.

Sure enough, dude was fine for several hours, but about two hours after he and the girl got to his parents house he went from perfectly fine and tripping happily to going nuts, trying to cut himself with a broken bottle, then did cut himself with it, non-verbally threatened to stab his parents and the girl, jumped into a plate glass window that didn't break and nearly broke his nose, and bad shit involving the cops and the hospital did ensue.

Moral of the story is that if you're gonna be tripping with people, your responsibility extends not only to ensuring that you don't freak out – that you're not a danger to them – but also to ensuring nobody *else* is a danger to them. I said I won't ride the OP for the stupid choice of taking an unknown dose of an unknown drug branded as 'Devil acid', so I'll not expound on it, but in doing these irresponsible things he put not only himself at risk but his buddies – including obviously the one who freaked out – at risk too.
 
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@ medicine cabinet:

Please ask that question in threads like these:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/674834-25I-NBOMe-vs-25C-NBOME

@ deinony:

The similarities between people are countless but the differences are as well. I'm not sure if generalizing and applying philosophical theory works with that...

Nice prosaic analogies but I feel mostly like they overcomplicate things...

Contemplating small probabilities will always be counterintuitive because they are almost by definition something rather specific we didn't really expect. Proposing an analogy, example or metaphor myself for a moment: I'd like to think it is highly unlikely for a piece of an airplane to fall on my roof but it is still possible. That might be a bad example because our mindset doesn't influence that but it does influence our susceptibility to freak-out episodes.
Saying that none of us are really immune doesn't turn it into a lottery where none of us can have any idea about when it will happen. Instead the truth is IMO somewhere in the middle: we do have some insight into how our own mental stability and the fact that you and I know the dosage and the exact identity of our drugs help us to avoid freakouts, and thus for us it is much less likely to happen because we are better prepared to avoid it by controlling important factors.

People apparently feel the need to reassure themselves that this has not happened and does not happen at random and that it's not true that anyone who takes NBOMe compounds is just at a random risk to get fucked every now and then (again, the lottery), and using the latent psychosis explanation is one way to do that. The fact that I try to put that in perspective and make a distinction between a drug-induced acute episode and a precipitated latent mental illness that could have also been precipitated by another trigger seems to make people defensive. And that doesn't really seem necessary to me because like you suggest: there are a number of factors that make some people have a much bigger predisposition than others... even so much so that the argument starts losing statistical significance.

But as a way to explain accidents like this, it does matter to differentiate between different factors that play a role in different sorts of mental episodes. Even if I turn out to be wrong about this particular case it is IMO still valid in general.

probability of the episode taking place wildly varies from person to person.

Not only that, but the drug in question is one of other several factors that determine the probability. That is why although I will acknowledge that we have people here who can tolerate huge amounts of, say, LSD... we should remember the golden rule to always be apprehensive with a new drug (or just new to them), because it just seems like some psychedelics have a strange tendency to cause unusual delerium-like effects and therefore freakouts.

There was a lot of violence involved in this particular case, but if we consider Salvia... that also pulls people into a world separate from consensus reality where they can act out their trip. And it really doesn't seem like it is very likely to develop immunity or tolerance to that very quickly, or at least when the dosage is right. So the amount of violence might be related to other factors that determine for example the content of the trip or the amount of despare. How violent someone reacts to that would probably be determined by how usual it is for that person to resort to violence but also how much of an instinctual reflex because of a sensation of necessity it may be inside that trip. I.e. if you are 'fighting for your life', whether literally (though illusory) because of hallucinations, or rather existentially and conceptually (like panicking about causality and determinism) becoming violent suddenly seems like a much more natural reaction.
 
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Yes, I tried to make it clear in my previous post that I am not opposed to the fact that the mindset is essential regarding what thoughts, feelings or behavior are inhibited, repressed or not anymore. I definitely agree with you guys on that, but concluding on the whole matter that all psychotic behavior from drug freak outs has a latent psychotic aspect seems really wrong to me.

I don't know about the word "psychotic" it is just such a broad blanket term.

If a human uses too much of certain substances they lose contact with normal day to day reality-"lose ones mind" or whatever you want to call it. What makes one person giggle and laugh at stuff and another get angry and try to harm any life form they can get their hands on ?

If a human gets so high they lose all inhibitions what makes on person want to hug everyone and shout at the world "I love you" and what makes the other try to smash everyones face in ?

Personally I think it is the persons underlining nature, feelings and personality, if someone has harmful tendencies and thoughts I guess many would label that behavior "psychotic", I would just call them a violent fuck.

The thoughts and behavior don't just come from the drug they come from somewhere inside the person.
 
In 99% of the time it would certainly work like that, but 1% in my personal experience it is possible for people to do very uncharacteristic things. I am not sure what the mechanism behind that is but my guess would be that it has something to do with the fact that there is bad and good in everyone. Despite what you might believe, for example people who are kind to others their whole life can still get very frustrated because bad things happened to them, they might repress those feelings and that only makes the chance much bigger that if the trigger is sufficient that frustration manifests itself.
Also lowered inhibitions was not the only factor here, there was also a very high dose of this drug that may have had terrorizing effects. Check my previous post.

I guess the term psychotic is a major thing I rejected in my posts as well - the whole point here is to try and make this more about human nature, things we all do that can result in problems.

Just to be clear: for people who are mentally stable without violent tendencies who also aren't repressing bad feelings or other serious unresolved shit, it would certainly take a lot to make them freak out. The closer to the surface, the easier it is to break it out. But I don't care if you're the Dalai Lama, we all have some badness in us.

But don't explain this case here away too quickly by deciding that it must have been the pre-existing violence and mental instability. That *might* very well be true, don't get me wrong, but not necessarily.
 
I guess the main question is: are we all inherently violent? Most of us have hands and feet with which we may do violent things. And it doesn't stop there: what part of the brain is most responsible for inhibiting or exhibiting violence?

@Deinonychus: Really awesome post, except the last few paragraphs. I can't help but to think that by turning away that man who had mental issues, you reinforced a feeling he might hold about how society does not want him around. It's entirely possible that you influenced the outcome of his trip by turning him away. Things could have turned out differently. You could have told the girl, "hey you messed up and dosed him even though I said not to, but let's see how things go. I may have to ask you guys to leave later, OK?" Granted, I don't know all the circumstances, but if I were tripping at a party and somebody told me to gtfo, my trip might not go so well, you know what I mean? :\
 
I think in case of an emergency we all are, as part of evolved biology of human nature.

So the less a person has a violent personality the bigger the emergency would need to be. Normally (without exogenous chemicals acting in our brain) that would be necessary to remove the brakes that prevent us from normally behaving in such a way (inhibitions), but in intoxicated states there may be shortcuts for example by indirectly suppressing parts of our consciousness that are involved in inhibition of such things... for example by disrupting or overwhelming.
 
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^I agree 100% with that, Solipsis.

Saying, "it would never in a million gazillion years happen to me cause I'm a peace-lovin' dude" can be dangerous, because you might not take all variables into account, should that one fateful trip undo you.
 
I guess the main question is: are we all inherently violent? Most of us have hands and feet with which we may do violent things. And it doesn't stop there: what part of the brain is most responsible for inhibiting or exhibiting violence?

@Deinonychus: Really awesome post, except the last few paragraphs. I can't help but to think that by turning away that man who had mental issues, you reinforced a feeling he might hold about how society does not want him around. It's entirely possible that you influenced the outcome of his trip by turning him away. Things could have turned out differently. You could have told the girl, "hey you messed up and dosed him even though I said not to, but let's see how things go. I may have to ask you guys to leave later, OK?" Granted, I don't know all the circumstances, but if I were tripping at a party and somebody told me to gtfo, my trip might not go so well, you know what I mean? :\

It's funny, I've thought a fair bit about this, and I definitely think its a valid point. In this case I don't think that I did the wrong thing, for a few reasons.

First, I didn't tell him to get the fuck out. I told the girl I was friends with that she needed to leave, for three reasons: first, she broke the house rules, second, I had to protect my friends, myself, and my mother's house and property in that order, but most importantly of all, I don't have the skills or experience with schizophrenia to be able to help the kid if something did come up. So that's why I paid for the cab and told them to go to his parents' house: they know him, they obviously will have had extensive experience with schizophrenia, and they will definitely know his own particular, unique form of schizophrenia intimately. Therefor nobody would know better than his parents what early signs of trouble would look like, or what techniques have worked in the past to calm him down, at what point an ambulance may need to be called for his own safety, etc.

Ultimately, I conducted the GTFO dialogue with the girl, and I sure as shit didn't say 'get the fuck out', that was just my Internet slang short version. I said 'you need to leave. You've made a huge mistake, put us all in danger, etc', told her to tell the kid that she wanted to hang out with him without all the other people around being noisy and boisterous, etc. She said 'no way, I'm not leaving' basically, I said 'you really want to bring it to that point? Trespassing? While my parents are at work I control the property. You're my friend, but I will be forced to call the police if you refuse to honor my instructions regarding leaving the property', etc. We had been talking this whole time away from the rest of the group, we rejoined the group, she pulled the boy aside and said she would 'prefer tripping the rest of the time without all the other people around, her parents were home though, could they go to his house?'. He agreed to it, we all wished them the best, flagged a cab down, said goodbye in a friendly way.

Now that I think about it, I think I lied and said my mom was on the way back to the house, got off work early of something, and we pretended we were all leaving. Either way, there's no two ways about it: it was deceitful, manipulative, and a dubious thing to do, but in my opinion then and still in my opinion today the alternatives were worse. When he started playing with a torch lighter talking about fire in a sexual way, and implying he wanted to set one of my dogs' beds on fire, I think that was the last straw.

All the same I felt awful doing it. I don't like to throw my weight around like that, and I *was* worried he would get upset in the cab on the way back, which would then be entirely my fault, but thankfully that didn't happen. Apparently they went to his house, and they both had a good time chilling together, but as he came down all of a sudden it went south.

It was a shitty situation all around. I'd have had no problem letting him stay if he hadn't been tripping balls. All she had to do was just not dose a mentally fragile guy with powerful psychotropic drugs, but once she did that, I don't know what else I should have done.

How would you have handled it? I'm curious, not being a dick here, just wondering if you see a better way out of it that I could have taken?

---

Solipsis: I'll get to what you said in a bit when I get home and got a real keyboard, not an iPhone. You make good points all around.
 
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Now that I see more of the details, I believe you did the right thing. He was acting sketchy as fuck, no doubt about it. If you can't deal with tripping, mentally ill people, you can't deal with them, that's all there is to it. And it sounds like you got your point across in a reasonable, direct way. Congrats. Sucks that you had to do it, though. Maybe you can send a message to her and him, saying you harbor no hard feelings or something?
 
Definitely a thread that fits within the scope of the MAPS forum and raises some interesting questions so..

PD -> MAPS Psychedelic Harm Reduction
 
Just wondering why this "losing your mind" on psychedelics has to result in violence to others tho. Isn't it just as likely that you'll take a shit on the floor and begin eating it with your fingers?
 
Just wondering why this "losing your mind" on psychedelics has to result in violence to others tho. Isn't it just as likely that you'll take a shit on the floor and begin eating it with your fingers?

It doesn't, you're exactly right. I wonder what the rates of violence are between people who simply let the Fear get ahold of them and people who have an underlying, possibly latent mental issue. I don't think there'd be any easy way to get the data, and obviously studies on the subject aren't likely to be done in academia anytime soon. I'm not meaning to stigmatize one population set or the other either, I'm just curious if there is a difference at all.

From my Fear experience with the dog shit I would say that a good portion of freakouts are probably nonviolent. I certainly wasn't in a violent place, but plenty shook up. I'm sure in the heat of be moment things could go wrong, but on the other hand I don't really think there's much that could have turned that violent.

We ended up deciding to split and my buddy's went home, I just stayed in my room away from parents or dog shit, but on the way to the bus stop we got pulled over by a cop for what she thought was curfew violation. We were old enough that we had no curfew by a month or two, so she didn't bother us, but I ought to mention that didn't produce any Fear at all.
 
Drug induced psychosis is not the same as psychosis, one difference being that with drug induced psychosis the episode stops when the drug effects wear off.

This diagnosis should be made instead of a diagnosis of Substance Intoxication or Substance Withdrawal only when the psychotic symptoms are in excess of those usually associated with the intoxication or withdrawal syndrome and when the symptoms are sufficiently severe to warrant independent clinical attention.

Substance-Induced Psychotic Disorders arise only in association with intoxication or withdrawal states but can persist for weeks, whereas primary Psychotic Disorders may precede the onset of substance use or may occur during times of sustained abstinence.

Source: http://www.health.am/psy/substance-induced-psychotic-disorder/#ixzz2eDlG3iu2
 
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Crazy shit man. You know, I've had some moments on 25i where I felt like I wasn't in control of what I was doing. But in my case, all that happened was that I walked a few miles with no shoes on, completely unable to will myself to turn around. And the thought loops were extremely weird and extremely unpleasant. That's what made me swear off 25i for good. That, and, the trip just felt like speeding out of control down a hill in a little wagon. (LSD, in comparison, is a fucking Cadillac). Even long after coming down I still would get "stuck" in those thought loops if I thought about it while sober. It wasn't until I took LSD for the first time that it "fixed" my mind and got rid of the loops.
I've never heard of such a drug that can have such vastly different and unpredictable effects on people. Definitely should be used with extreme caution.
 
Just wondering why this "losing your mind" on psychedelics has to result in violence to others tho. Isn't it just as likely that you'll take a shit on the floor and begin eating it with your fingers?

Certainly true. I imagine we hear more about theviolent ones b/c that's when the authorities get involved & the media covers it. If some guy freaks out on acid & does something weird with poop or masturbates in an inappropriate place or something the people involved probably won't be speaking about it just a whole lot, ha.

Another thing to keep in mind is that human behavior is heavily influenced by environment/situation. That's probably the largest factor. Don't get me wrong, personality is definitely a factor as well, but plenty of psychological research has established that more often than not, behavior is largely situational.

My guess about violent outbursts that occur during immersive psychedelic states or drug psychoses is that the person in question either feels like they are being threatened, attacked or otherwise in danger; or they have some underlying tendencies towards violence and/or pent up aggression & frustration.

In the case of the former, it seems this could happen to anyone. Of course there are plenty of steps one can take to reduce the probability, butgiven the highly variable nature of psychedelics, I doubt it's possible to completely negate the potential for such an occurance. If you're seeing a demon reaching for your soul or an alien trying to give you a rectal exam when in reality it's just a friend trying to help you off the couch, it's not outlandish at all to think one might lash out physically.

In the case of the latter I think its fairly clear that some people are just more prone to violence. There are plenty of genetic & environmental reasons for this, but that's probably outside the scope of this discussion.
 
I hate to sound like I'm dicksizing, but I've taken 3mg and been fine. I tripped mad fucking nuts, but I was fine. Exactly one week before, I had taken two 1mg tabs, and tripped pretty hard. The trip the week after was a little harder but defos had less side effects and felt cleaner, probably some leftover tolerance. Both were in good settings and among very close friends. A lot of it was laughter and dimensional transcending and weird telepathy. I don't even know.
 
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