Do not mess with 25i, my roomate tried to kill me last night

[Toz]

Yea people seem to have got the wrong idea about weed and psychedelics. You simply don't smoke weed to "mellow out" during a trip. You smoke to make it more intense. I don't know how people manage to get this backwards really, it's quite obvious smoking weed will get you more high lol.

 

[lamanogaucha]

@Ismene - "I could take twice as much 25I as this guy took, add 500 mics of LSD and throw some DOM on top to take the edge off. I can guarantee that all I'd do is lay on the couch and giggle." Don't show your cock to me ever again, you freak! LOL!

@xstayfadedx - "...some research drug with PCP on the end of it was going around as 'acid'..." If that was indeed the case, then it was almost certainly 3-MeO-PCP or 4-MeO-PCP. How much material did your sister ingest? Also, whoever gave her that and passed it off as acid is not your friend!

@Reverend Random - Good post. I should clarify one thing though, just in case. My first post on this thread merely addressed what in my opinion are the three most likely candidates for an explanation of the incident that the OP described. Although what you said is true -- albeit a rather rare circumstance vis-à-vis experienced users of psychedelics -- the OP's entire first post strongly suggests, in my estimation, one or more of the explanations I offered.

 

[xstayfadedx]

^I don't know it was a random tab... my friend didn't give it to her. It was someone random... that's why I was mad because we had legit acid and test kits, but she still chose to be dumb. And yeah, it was 3-MeO-PCP. It was so scary hearing the shit she said on it...

 

[Jesusgreen]

simple answer.
1. (probably) high dose of unknown substance you call "devil's acid" [c'mon..] to make sure you have a nice trip.
2. THC causes freakouts when mixed with psychedelics. not necessarily but reliably. especially with higher doses and/or inexperienced users. I'm increasingly amazed that people don't take note of this phenomenon. scroll through trip-gone-wrong-reports in here; often you'll find this pattern: "everything went fine" or maybe "things were a bit uneasy" and "then we smoked a little weed to mellow out"....then a few sentences of random activity and then suddenly "from this point on - I wonder why - things went terribly wrong."
imo THC while peaking on strong 5-ht2a psychedelics is dangerous and should be avoided. even by experienced trippers.
it took me a psychotic break on acid (stayed sane enough to get myself an IM-shot of risperidon but it was still traumatizing) AND a panic attack on 2c-b to finally figure out that connection...


@OP: time will heal those wounds!

^ This. Almost certainly a high dose, it seems common place for most tabs of 25I-NBOMe to be dosed quite high, I've seen tabs with as high as 2mg per tab, and the average seems to be 1-1.2mg. 1mg when pure and consumed correctly is a very strong dose. I can't imagine the crazyness that would follow after 2mg of pure and accurately dosed material, and 3-4mg is just ridiculous.

Be careful with these substances, just because the NBOMe series are legal in many places doesn't make them any safer than other drugs. If your friend really took as high a dose as I expect, you and him are lucky he only went crazy and damaged a bunch of stuff, the NBOMes cause very strong vasoconstriction and elevated blood pressure in high doses - a little too much can put you in hospital or kill you. Don't even consider taking them if you don't know the dosage.

500ug buccal/sublingual is a good place to start, and I don't advise exceeding 1.5mg even if you're a hard-head (much less if you're using other ROAs) - there are other safer drugs you can take if you want that "balls to the wall" experience without putting yourself or others at risk. A small difference in dosage can make a big difference in the effects, for example with 25C-NBOMe, up to 1mg was the perfect dose for me, and I didn't experience any problems, while 1.2mg was way too uncomfortably intense on the come up and caused worryingly high blood pressure.

This is just another reminder of why proper dosage and proper set and setting are vital - and this goes for other drugs too not just psychedelics. If you're not mentally prepared, take too much, or are in an unsafe environment the consequences can be very serious.

Take what happened as a lesson to both of you and please be more careful in future. Stay safe and hope you and your friend are okay

 

[Deinonychus]

@Ismene - "I could take twice as much 25I as this guy took, add 500 mics of LSD and throw some DOM on top to take the edge off. I can guarantee that all I'd do is lay on the couch and giggle." Don't show your cock to me ever again, you freak! LOL!

I know you're being not-serious, but it's worth pointing out that people who can take large quantities of multiple things like that aren't necessarily doing it just to be the 'biggest man' or to show off that they can 'go hard', and likewise mentioning it on the internet isn't necessarily dicksizing. Surely it is many times that it is posted, but not all the time.

Case in point, I don't feel NBOMes as a rule at less than a milligram, and I much prefer to take two milligrams of one of the halogenated NBOMescombined with a dose – usually hefty – of a proper, full psychedelic. NBOMes on their own for me are lackluster, have no mindfuck, are useless, but in combination with some 2C-B or some miprocin the combination becomes more than the sum of its parts. So 2 mg of 25B-NBOMe with 20 to 30 mg of 4-HO-MiPT is not unusual for me. Just because that's how I like it doesn't make it an attempt to prove how badass I am of how huge of doses I can dicksize.

I have posted here several times about how I believe that the NBOMe family exhibits dose weirdness, in the sense that some people may find 500 mics to be overwhelming and too much yet I've seen people who take no less than 4 mg, with 3 or less being practically inactive, and this isn't with tolerance. So in addition to people taking random unknown drugs for which they don't know the provenance or dose, and using riskier methods of administration, like insufflation, I believe there is an inherant variation in the amount that people need to trip to further confuse matters.

 

[lamanogaucha]

Yes, I was totally joking with Ismene, and thank you for your input! I occasionally take heavy doses of certain materials as well. One thing though... for the sake of HR, we should be a little more discreet regarding our more heroic trials, me thinks.

 

[xstayfadedx]

^ This. Almost certainly a high dose, it seems common place for most tabs of 25I-NBOMe to be dosed quite high, I've seen tabs with as high as 2mg per tab, and the average seems to be 1-1.2mg. 1mg when pure and consumed correctly is a very strong dose. I can't imagine the crazyness that would follow after 2mg of pure and accurately dosed material, and 3-4mg is just ridiculous.

Be careful with these substances, just because the NBOMe series are legal in many places doesn't make them any safer than other drugs. If your friend really took as high a dose as I expect, you and him are lucky he only went crazy and damaged a bunch of stuff, the NBOMes cause very strong vasoconstriction and elevated blood pressure in high doses - a little too much can put you in hospital or kill you. Don't even consider taking them if you don't know the dosage.

500ug buccal/sublingual is a good place to start, and I don't advise exceeding 1.5mg even if you're a hard-head (much less if you're using other ROAs) - there are other safer drugs you can take if you want that "balls to the wall" experience without putting yourself or others at risk. A small difference in dosage can make a big difference in the effects, for example with 25C-NBOMe, up to 1mg was the perfect dose for me, and I didn't experience any problems, while 1.2mg was way too uncomfortably intense on the come up and caused worryingly high blood pressure.

This is just another reminder of why proper dosage and proper set and setting are vital - and this goes for other drugs too not just psychedelics. If you're not mentally prepared, take too much, or are in an unsafe environment the consequences can be very serious.

Take what happened as a lesson to both of you and please be more careful in future. Stay safe and hope you and your friend are okay

Yeah, I couldn't imagine someone taking 3mgs... 2mg was enough for me. The highest I would ever go. I barely could talk... my thoughts went way faster than my mouth and I literally sounded like I had a disability at times. Then later I could talk, but I couldn't shut up what so ever. It was one thing after the next on the 25i-NBOMe.

 

[psood0nym]

I'm not sure that that has anything to do with it. It's a full agonist, sure, but that doesn't really have anything to do with its potency. DOI is a full agonist too, and it's almost an order of magnitude less potent; LSD is only a weak partial agonist or maybe even an antagonist, and it's more potent.

You may be correct. Potency has to do with both affinity and efficacy if I recall correctly. As others have stated and as I alluded to, the increase in the unpredictability of a user's response engendered by the error proneness of dealing with extremely low dose drugs may be all that's needed to account for the high proportion of negative reports for NBOMes relative to most other psychedelics. However, what I had in mind by suggesting the potential role of full agonism was its presumed effect on signal propagation through neural networks combined with the observation, as noted by kidklmx, that recreational drugs that are full agonists are often associated with problematic effects.

What I intend by bringing this up is simply to acknowledge that the firing pattern at any node (neuron) in a network (group of neurons/brain) will effect the pattern of activity of a signal as it travels across many nodes. As a simplified analogy for those unfamiliar with what I mean, think of a game of telephone where where one group of individuals (the nodes of the group) is made up of "high functioning" people and another group playing the same game of telephone is made up of Alzheimer's patients with speech impediments -- the initial message (the signal) is going to be more or less altered dependent on the activity (the memory quality and ability to accurately articulate a message of each individual, or node) of each node in the two networks (the two different groups). Because presumably it is the pattern of neural activity that underlies our sense of the quality of subjective experience, I'm suggesting that to effect the "full response of a receptor system" with a full agonist, all else being equal (see below), may have a different effect on subjective experience than with a partial agonist (such as the propensity to freak the fuck out, get naked, and smack the powdered sugar right out of a cop's silly little mustache).

Of course, the unknown role of functional selectivity is also a factor. From wikipedia:

One notable example of functional selectivity occurs with the 5-HT2A receptor, as well as the 5-HT2C receptor. Serotonin, the main endogenous ligand of 5-HT receptors, is a functionally selective agonist at this receptor, activating phospholipase C (which leads to inositol triphosphate accumulation), but does not activate phospholipase A2, which would result in arachidonic acid signalling. However, the other endogenous compound Dimethyltryptamine activates arachidonic acid signalling at the 5-HT2A receptor, as do many exogenous hallucinogens such as DOB and LSD. Notably, LSD does not activate IP3 signalling through this receptor to any significant extent. This may explain why direct 5-HT2 agonists have psychedelic effects, whereas compounds that indirectly increase serotonin signalling at the 5-HT2 receptors, such as SSRIs, generally do not.[2]

These further intracellular pathways have not been defined for most psychedelics, so even if we knew the receptor binding profile, affinity, and efficacy for every psychedelic drug, we still wouldn't be able to make very reliable predictions about the subjective effects of combinations (such as trying to combine two "RC" psychedelics and assuming from such limited knowledge about them that they ought to feel like LSD or mescaline). Granted, I'm not really that knowledgeable about any of this, but I think this appraisal is basically correct at this stage of our knowledge, though I welcome any corrections.

 

[kidklmx]

You can't argue that 25i has a worse safety profile than LSD. Sure I have seen plenty of people lose their shit over the years on acid but you only have to look around BL the past 12 months to see a disturbing rise in these sort of incidents.

It's just too early to be a judge in this. I have reasons to believe people are GREATLY (yes, all caps) underestimating the popularity of these compounds, even if they think they're really popular. Without venturing in to price or source discussion too much, if you know where to look then gram-for-gram an NBOMe can be a great deal cheaper than it's respective 2C counterpart. Now, I'm not an economist by any means but I'm pretty sure that has to do with popularity, especially if there is a longer synth involved.

It's a shame Google doesn't publish any hard data on search-terms, but the fact that the query "25i-NBOMe" produced a 100-fold increase since the half of 2011 (when it already was a known RC) speaks for itself.. And that's for people that KNOW they are taking an NBOMe (fun-fact: almost ALL searches come from the US)

At any rate, they're just really popular and as such, incidents are bound to happen (leaving full-agonism and extreme binding aside for a moment)

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I still refuse to believe that psychedelics can cause anyone to be violent and psychotic.
Everyone I've ever seen who has turned violent on psyches has had some sort of violent history or had some sort of mental disorder.
I've only lost my shit on psychedelics once, and I never turned violent I just buried my head in the couch and cried for hours, it seems more to me what the individuals personal response to stress triggers is normally.
I'm not a violent person by any means, so of course I wouldn't have a violent response to such a scenario

 

[Ismene]

Having worked in a psychedelic emergency setting and having sat with people who were really (and I mean REALLY!) far out, kicking and screaming, hitting people and babbling very incoherently for hours on end, and also having talked to them afterwards, I can assure you that I feel this could happen to anyone. To perfectly rational, experienced, easy-going people. Really.

I'd have to disagree Reverend. Everyone seems normal until they batter the ex-wife to death with a lump hammer. A very small percentage of people are vulnerable to psychotic tendencies. I've been tripping for years on dosages sufficient to stun a charging hippo and I've never felt the slightest need to batter anyone to death with a lump hammer. It just isn't in my nature.

There's an old saying "If you bring forth that which is within you, what you bring forth will set you free".

Yes, I was totally joking with Ismene, and thank you for your input! I occasionally take heavy doses of certain materials as well. One thing though... for the sake of HR, we should be a little more discreet regarding our more heroic trials, me thinks.

Me, lamanogaucha and Deinonychus are getting together and taking 15 dried grams each - last one to run down the street naked save for one sock and attack a policeman is a cissy :D

 

[Solipsis]

Drug induced psychosis is not the same as psychosis, one difference being that with drug induced psychosis the episode stops when the drug effects wear off. Also drug induced psychosis (although it might have higher prevalence in the mentally unstable) could happen to anyone because there can be effects on top of the psychedelia that can facilitate a break from reality. When enough dissociation (Psychedelics often have dissociative potential themselves) and disinhibition occur, for example, people can lose control over themselves and they can start acting in a delirious sort of way.
Even if it is unusual to happen with certain drugs doesn't mean that when it does it is always because of mental instability. 2C-T-7 is apparently a drug that can cause delirium-like states in higher doses. To illustrate: alcohol tends to cause people to throw up and/or fall asleep before they ever get to a delirium state sort of point, but I'm pretty sure that if you take it far enough you can have a 'blackout' in which behavior can turn pretty primal. That doesn't mean that most people have latent psychosis, it is drug-induced and it involves the controls being removed that normally keep a person in check.
I'm not sure of all the factors that can play a role but it is also more likely to happen when other drugs are combined with the psychedelic that promote amnestic and disinhibiting effects. Phenazepam and desoxypipradrol are other compounds that illustrate that even mentally fit people can be broken if the lines of defense are weakened enough and the onslaught of psychomimetic effects are strong enough.
Given the right conditions to create a perfect storm, I think 25I-NBOMe is potent enough to cause people to go apeshit without the addition of other drugs. Maybe things like lack of sleep, a high dose and a few other factors could lead to this if you're just very unlucky.

Now look, I do agree that people who are for example repressing stuff are at a higher risk of having that mentality blow up in their faces, anything that fragments your mind like that is a crack in the ice that can result in a break. It can be interpreted as another way of saying that extreme episodes don't usually tend to happen in people who are mentally very well... but I think it is too black and white and unfair to lump all freakouts to psychotic tendencies like that.
I do think that the freaked out guy from the OP has some mental issues but not necessarily congenital latent psychosis. Maybe he is a bad example because of the excessive violence but my point is rather that people seem to be underestimating disinhibiting, amnestic, dissociative and psychedelic effects working together to create a sort of quasi-delirium.

And frankly I find it arrogant and unwise to suggest that a lot of people are immune to this type of reaction. I have pushed the envelope for years as well and found myself to be remarkably resilient to really psychotic effects or episodes but I have had a blackout with LSD and alprazolam. Still, I would find it wrong to think that I could never absolutely lose my shit. It's just not as easy and it would require a lot.

@Lamano: good point, I actually updated the PD forum rules and guidelines a little bit to remind us that we should be careful with encouraging irresponsible behavior like extremely high doses (and calling that heroic or epic)

 

['medicine cabinet']

Wow, is 25i much different than 25c? I dont even like psychs at all, but hadnt tripped in ages and wanted to try it since it was free. Guy i know from a diff site sent me 4 blotters of 800mcg tabs to try and i gotta say it was super fun for a solo trip...smoked weed and watched a bunch of family guy til my vision was so crazy it was almost hard to watch. It did make me laugh that when the fire truck blew its horn he ran off lol, its like he was a scared animal at that point. Hes lucky the cops didnt taze and seriously beat him in the head considering how crazy he was being. Glad no one was seriously injured tho.

 

[Elkat13]

Wow I've never heard a story like that, except for people on PCP. I'm glad no one decided to commit suicide that night!

 

[nuke]

It's just too early to be a judge in this. I have reasons to believe people are GREATLY (yes, all caps) underestimating the popularity of these compounds, even if they think they're really popular. Without venturing in to price or source discussion too much, if you know where to look then gram-for-gram an NBOMe can be a great deal cheaper than it's respective 2C counterpart. Now, I'm not an economist by any means but I'm pretty sure that has to do with popularity, especially if there is a longer synth involved.

It's a shame Google doesn't publish any hard data on search-terms, but the fact that the query "25i-NBOMe" produced a 100-fold increase since the half of 2011 (when it already was a known RC) speaks for itself.. And that's for people that KNOW they are taking an NBOMe (fun-fact: almost ALL searches come from the US)

At any rate, they're just really popular and as such, incidents are bound to happen (leaving full-agonism and extreme binding aside for a moment)

Synthesis of these from their parent 2C compounds is painfully easy. I would estimate it's costing whoever is making them about an extra $1.00 USD per gram.

 

[Psichedelic]

This is rather anecdotal, and bad trips are a reality on any psychedelic.

I've been around someone who beat his roommate into the hospital for a few days with a chair, he was on 3.5grams of P. Cubensis mushrooms.

 

[Ismene]

Drug induced psychosis is not the same as psychosis, one difference being that with drug induced psychosis the episode stops when the drug effects wear off. Also drug induced psychosis (although it might have higher prevalence in the mentally unstable) could happen to anyone because there can be effects on top of the psychedelia that can facilitate a break from reality.

I'd need evidence of this solipsis - I've taken some incredible doses and never remotely felt violent. Neither has anyone I've ever known. Similarly I've been drunk and never been violent.

To illustrate: alcohol tends to cause people to throw up and/or fall asleep before they ever get to a delirium state sort of point, but I'm pretty sure that if you take it far enough you can have a 'blackout' in which behavior can turn pretty primal.

I've never really bought into the idea "the alcohol made me do it". You become violent because you WANT to be violent and the alcohol frees your inhibitions. If you don't want to become violent on alcohol then you don't become violent. There's always a pretty strong link between the people who are violent on alcohol and the people who are violent anyway. You don't tend to get the Dali Lama having 3 pints and attempting to murder somebody.

It can be interpreted as another way of saying that extreme episodes don't usually tend to happen in people who are mentally very well

I'm sure you can have extreme episodes - I'm just questioning whether those episodes would involve homicidal violence. There's a big difference between having an extreme episode and becoming psychotically violent.

 

[Reverend Random]

Drug induced psychosis is not the same as psychosis, one difference being that with drug induced psychosis the episode stops when the drug effects wear off. Also drug induced psychosis (although it might have higher prevalence in the mentally unstable) could happen to anyone because there can be effects on top of the psychedelia that can facilitate a break from reality. When enough dissociation (Psychedelics often have dissociative potential themselves) and disinhibition occur, for example, people can lose control over themselves and they can start acting in a delirious sort of way.

Even if it is unusual to happen with certain drugs doesn't mean that when it does it is always because of mental instability. 2C-T-7 is apparently a drug that can cause delirium-like states in higher doses. To illustrate: alcohol tends to cause people to throw up and/or fall asleep before they ever get to a delirium state sort of point, but I'm pretty sure that if you take it far enough you can have a 'blackout' in which behavior can turn pretty primal. That doesn't mean that most people have latent psychosis, it is drug-induced and it involves the controls being removed that normally keep a person in check.

I'm not sure of all the factors that can play a role but it is also more likely to happen when other drugs are combined with the psychedelic that promote amnestic and disinhibiting effects. Phenazepam and desoxypipradrol are other compounds that illustrate that even mentally fit people can be broken if the lines of defense are weakened enough and the onslaught of psychomimetic effects are strong enough.

Given the right conditions to create a perfect storm, I think 25I-NBOMe is potent enough to cause people to go apeshit without the addition of other drugs. Maybe things like lack of sleep, a high dose and a few other factors could lead to this if you're just very unlucky.

Now look, I do agree that people who are for example repressing stuff are at a higher risk of having that mentality blow up in their faces, anything that fragments your mind like that is a crack in the ice that can result in a break. It can be interpreted as another way of saying that extreme episodes don't usually tend to happen in people who are mentally very well... but I think it is too black and white and unfair to lump all freakouts to psychotic tendencies like that.

I do think that the freaked out guy from the OP has some mental issues but not necessarily congenital latent psychosis. Maybe he is a bad example because of the excessive violence but my point is rather that people seem to be underestimating disinhibiting, amnestic, dissociative and psychedelic effects working together to create a sort of quasi-delirium.

And frankly I find it arrogant and unwise to suggest that a lot of people are immune to this type of reaction. I have pushed the envelope for years as well and found myself to be remarkably resilient to really psychotic effects or episodes but I have had a blackout with LSD and alprazolam. Still, I would find it wrong to think that I could never absolutely lose my shit. It's just not as easy and it would require a lot.

Thank you for clarifying that, Solipsis. That is indeed what I was referring to. Ismene, I think that your reasoning is faulty. You're saying that because it hasn't happened to you on high doses or to anyone you know, it's not possible to occur in people who don't have violent / psychotic / out-acting inclinations in the first place. Sure, it's not very likely that some pacifistic person becomes extremely violent for no reason, but it does happen. The guy I sat with and which I described in my previous post was very experienced with psychedelics, he told me, and had taken a large dose of acid at Boom Festival in Portugal. Conditions are rough there: it's very hot and dry during the day, little shade, visual decorations intended to stimulate psychedelic experiences, loud banging music, lots and lots of semi-naked people dancing their asses off... Et cetera et cetera.

In his mind, he was fighting off strange creatures that wanted to abduct him, was transported to the underworld and later carried off on a beam of light towards the heavens (at this time, we were trying to constrain him without hurting him). He was actually brought in by four very buff security dudes who had picked him off the dance floor where he was random people. Afterwards, the guy and his friends told me he is a very peaceful dude who actually has a lot of experience with various psychedelics in high dosages and who's never ever experienced something like this.

@Ismene: I would also say I have quite some experience with psychedelics (including high dosages of some) but would never venture to say that something similar couldn't happen to me. I have never even felt violent on psychedelics. I have become a bit of a vandal in my younger years under the influence of alcohol, but never been actually violent towards people or other things.

I agree with Solipsis that it is somewhat arrogant to state that you might be immune or that it can't happen in people who are otherwise mentally stable, happy and so forth.

Anyway, I'm just saying that you should be open to the possibility that it can happen, given the amount of uncontrollable variables that influence a psychedelic experience. Lastly, I don't think there is a very big difference between having an 'extreme episode' and 'becoming psychotically violent'. It's a very fine line, in fact. Depending on how dissociated you become from consensual reality, if you become convinced that they are after you or that your friend is a demon who wants your soul, you might just find yourself fighting for your life.

Not admitting that it's a possibility and not accepting that it does happen is a bit close-minded, I think.

 

[flat-line]

I've never really bought into the idea "the alcohol made me do it". You become violent because you WANT to be violent and the alcohol frees your inhibitions. If you don't want to become violent on alcohol then you don't become violent. There's always a pretty strong link between the people who are violent on alcohol and the people who are violent anyway. You don't tend to get the Dali Lama having 3 pints and attempting to murder somebody.

^This.

When I was younger I used to spend many nights out getting messed up on alcohol and various substances sometimes people would "freak out" "get weird" become violent. It was people that had problems to begin with. The guy that was angry at his GF would get wasted start fights, punch walls, etc. The guy that was always "off" would start getting creepy and say dark weird things.

You go into a poor redneck bar that has fights every weekend - Then you go to a nicer place with nice well refined happy people that have no fight anyone can think of- Why?

 

[Ismene]

I agree with Solipsis that it is somewhat arrogant to state that you might be immune or that it can't happen in people who are otherwise mentally stable, happy and so forth.

How far can we take this argument tho Reverend? Is it possible that the next time my girlfriend leaves I'll go round and beat her to death with a lump hammer? Because someone once did it that means everyone is liable to do it? It simply isn't going to happen. There's more chance of walking to the moon in my bare feet.

Yes, I believe people can react negatively to psychedelics, a small percentage who can't handle their high might run down the street naked save for one sock. But it's going to be an even smaller percentage who then physically attack someone else. That's a boundary that the vast majority of people simply couldn't cross. No matter how high your psychedelic dose is. When you hear someone screaming in fear and pain it stops pretty much everyone from inflicting more violence -no matter how much acid you've had.

I'm just worried that we're in "if you take psychedelics you're legally insane" territory. If you're a good guy off psychedelics you're a good guy on psychedelics. If you attempt to murder someone then the logical response of a good guy is not to take psychedelics again because you arn't suited to them.

Not admitting that it's a possibility and not accepting that it does happen is a bit close-minded, I think.

I think it's more to do with my respect and love for psychedelics. I don't want them getting the blame for every idiot who attacks someone the next time he's on acid. It's a classic excuse that every criminal uses - "I was drunk, I'd taken acid, I'd taken ecstasy for 3 days - that's why I killed that guy who looked at me funny". I don't buy it.