Dear Rick Ross: Drugging Her Drink For Sex Is Rape

[Clocktower]

But if both participants are equally intoxicated, then aren't they raping each other?

There's some legal gray area there, but essentially it depends on who initiates sex. Typically one person initiates, and the other consents. If both parties initiate at the same time, there's no rape. If one party initiates and the other 'consents' but would not have if he/she were sober, then the situation starts to look more like a rape.

What if the guy would never have decided to have sex with that woman if he was sober, isn't his decision making, and subsequently his consent, just as compromised as hers?

Do you mean to say, "What if the guy would never have decided to rape that woman if he was sober?" He's still responsible for that.

Nobody said they were dude, no need to fish for inappropriate comments just to start an argument.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that statement as a response to statements like this:

IMO people should be held responsible for their actions when they're intoxicated, and this cuts both ways.

I think that should be amended to "IMO some people should be held responsible for their actions when they're intoxicated."

 

[Crankinit]

Do you mean to say, "What if the guy would never have decided to rape that woman if he was sober?" He's still responsible for that.

How are you defining it as rape though? Are you seriously saying that whenever two intoxicated people decide to have sex, whoever initiates the encounter is automatically a rapist? That's absurd, putting aside the issue of how you go about determining who actually initiated it in the first place. If one person is responsible for their decision to initiate sex, then the other person is equally responsible for their decision to consent.

I think that should be amended to "IMO some people should be held responsible for their actions when they're intoxicated."

Would you clarify? Why only some? Who do you think isn't responsible for their decisions while intoxicated?

 

[Clocktower]

Sorry, I actually meant to ask that question, it wasn't rhetorical. I'll do my best to clarify.

In general, people should be held responsible for decisions they make while intoxicated. However, I think an exception is in order when an intoxicated person 'consents' to sex that he or she would not have consented to while sober. A rape is never the victim's fault, not even in part.

 

[Crankinit]

In general, people should be held responsible for decisions they make while intoxicated. However, I think an exception is in order when an intoxicated person 'consents' to sex that he or she would not have consented to while sober. A rape is never the victim's fault, not even in part.

So you're saying that every time two people have sex while intoxicated, it's rape? They're what, raping eachother? Why does the decision to say, start a fight you wouldn't have normally started, or drive drunk when you normally wouldn't have, count, but not the decision to have sex? If two drunk people have sex, why does the one person's decision to initiate the sex count, but not the other persons decision to consent to the it? Either you're capable of making decisions or not, you can't just pick and choose which decisions count and which don't.

To me, it just sounds like an absurd and arbitrary viewpoint based on outdated ideas about gender roles, and imo it just robs people of their agency, telling them that their decisions are somehow less valid or meaningful, that they're incapable of deciding how to direct their life.

 

[drug_mentor]

Im not trying to be rude but I doubt you've listened to much rap if you think this is true. I've heard plenty rap songs where murdering civilians is mentioned. Maybe the newer rappers like Rick Ross/ Lil Wayne don't say things like that, I wouldn't know as I don't listen to them much.

I've listened to a fair amount. Who are you thinking of?

Biggie Smalls makes a reference to punching a pregnant chick in the stomach in a song, pretty sure it is 'Dead Wrong'. Jedi Mind Tricks talk about killing civillians often, there is a reference to killing a young child on the track 'Target Practise' off the album Violence Begets Violence. Eminem has definately talked about killing all sorts of innocents, in the track 'Criminal' there is a skit where he robs a store and shoots someone in the face for no reason. In the track 'Just Don't Give a Fuck' he makes a reference to raping the 8th grade womens swim team as well. If I wanted to honestly think on it I could give SO many examples of rap music where they refer to killing innocent people or rape and all sorts of shit, so it really makes no sense to me why this lyric by Rick Ross would be singled out above all else even though I do agree it is distasteful.

But if both participants are equally intoxicated, then aren't they raping each other? What if the guy would never have decided to have sex with that woman if he was sober, isn't his decision making, and subsequently his consent, just as compromised as hers? Why do we automatically assume that the man is some kind of abusive predator and the woman is a passive victim? IMO people should be held responsible for their actions when they're intoxicated, and this cuts both ways.

Anyway, the lyric is stupid, anyone who got drugged with MDMA would notice pretty quickly.

I think you raise an excellent point crankinit, I feel there is some degree of gender bias against men when it comes to rape and the whole idea of not being able to consent when intoxicated. NEVER ever heard of a sober chick fucking a drunk guy and getting called out as a rapist, not once in my life ever (for the record I have known a few occasions where ugly girls who were stone sober or only a fraction as drunk as the guy fucked a dude who SERIOUSLY regretted it after and nobody said boo). I have also heard of many examples where both the man and woman were drunk and still the girl cries rape, often successfully. I don't see how if I am drunk and I root a drunk chick how she was too fucked up to give consent but I am supposed to be sober enough to know I can't do it because she is drunk. Seems like a lot more responsibility falls on the man to me and there isn't any logical reason I can think of why.

I also agree that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to dose anyone on any noticeable MDMA and them not well and truly know they had been drugged, its effects are FAR from subtle.

BTW I just want to add that despite all my listed examples of negative comments in rap music before I am not hating on the genre whatsoever, it is actually my favourite genre of music and the majority of what I listen to is rap. Even the artists that I gave examples of are for the most part artists that I respect, I don't really like Rick Ross but if I did then one stupid, distasteful line in a shitty song probably wouldn't be enough to change my mind.

 

[Crankinit]

I don't see how if I am drunk and I root a drunk chick how she was too fucked up to give consent but I am supposed to be sober enough to know I can't do it because she is drunk.

Exactly man, this is what I mean when I say it cuts both ways. Either decisions made when you're drunk are valid (which, imo, they are), or they aren't. You can't pick and choose, someone's decision making capability doesn't depend on the actual decision being made, or their gender. If decisions made when drunk are valid, then it's not rape, because both parties are consenting, and if decisions made when drunk aren't valid, then the person who initiated sex can't be blamed for their decision any more than the person who consented to it can't be blamed for theirs.

The problem is, people who want to paint themselves as progressive and equal and feminist and whatever, but in reality still have a lot of antiquated ideas about gender roles and sex buried in their subconscious, and so they're still projecting their idea that men are aggressive predators, and that women are passive, prey who are incapable of making decisions about their sexuality for themselves, into their analysis of the situation, claiming that women aren't capable of deciding who to sleep with while drunk, but that men somehow are. Which is a shame, because that kind of thinking just hurts the goal of eliminating discriminative gender disparity and robs women of agency, along with harming a lot of lives when people make poor decisions and want someone to blame.

 

[20max10]

Biggie Smalls makes a reference to punching a pregnant chick in the stomach in a song, pretty sure it is 'Dead Wrong'. Jedi Mind Tricks talk about killing civillians often, there is a reference to killing a young child on the track 'Target Practise' off the album Violence Begets Violence. Eminem has definately talked about killing all sorts of innocents, in the track 'Criminal' there is a skit where he robs a store and shoots someone in the face for no reason. In the track 'Just Don't Give a Fuck' he makes a reference to raping the 8th grade womens swim team as well. If I wanted to honestly think on it I could give SO many examples of rap music where they refer to killing innocent people or rape and all sorts of shit, so it really makes no sense to me why this lyric by Rick Ross would be singled out above all else even though I do agree it is distasteful.

Yeah thanks for that, I knew I wasn't imagining it

 

[pasha]

Most respondents reported feelings of emotional closeness while consuming MDMA but without the desire for penetrative sex. Others, however, reported that MDMA increased sexual arousal and some respondents (in particular, gay and bisexual females) had used MDMA specifically for sexual enhancement. Sexual risk taking (e.g., having multiple partners, engaging in sex without a condom) was prevalent among respondents who did engage in sexual activity during MDMA episodes.

Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16048828

In the past two decades, recreational use of ecstasy has become a growing concern in the United States, although most studies assessing ecstasy use have focused on white, middle-class adolescents who use ecstasy during raves and in clubs. We assessed the prevalence of recent ecstasy use among predominantly minority heroin, cocaine, and crack users in New York City and the association between ecstasy and sexual risk above and beyond that of the other drugs. Between 2002 and 2004, injection and non-injection heroin, crack and cocaine users (N= 534) completed a risk behavior questionnaire that included items on ecstasy use. Logistic regression was used to investigate the relation between current ecstasy use and sexual behaviors. Of 534 illicit drug users, 69.7% were aged 25 years or older, 65.2% were Hispanic, 27.9% Black and 77.4% male; 36.7% were injectors. 17.2% of respondents reported recent (last six months) ecstasy use. In a multivariable logistic regression model, current ecstasy use was associated both with initiating sex before age 14 (adjusted odds ratio (AOR) = 1.51) and having two or more partners in the past two months (AOR = 1.86) after adjusting for age at study entry, current cocaine and marijuana use and being an injection drug user. This study suggests that ecstasy use may be more prevalent among urban drug users. Ecstasy use in urban settings, beyond clubs and raves, should continue to be monitored.

Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16175956

This, amongst other amphetamines, are obviously substances that alter many aspects of sexual behavior. To me, it constitutes as rape. There is no difference between getting a girl liquored up or loved up and taking advantage of her. Even for her to take the MDMA for the first time, not fully knowing its mind altering effects, and proceeding to engage in intercourse, is a grey area, let alone spiking her drink and having the MDMA be responsible for engineering her decision to engage in intercourse.

Talking about it is also equally as despicable as performing it. The fact they talk about "murdering people" without repercussions is what has become such a let off for them in 'rapping' about other subjects. Just because they talk about one and it has grown into music culture as acceptable in which it is truly not, doesn't make the other any better. It's an indication of the decline of music and civilization as a whole that some think otherwise. Sad but true.

 

[20max10]

But if they're just talking about it in a song then it hasn't actually happened
Nothing despicable has actually happened, except for in a fictional scenario
I fail to see how a murder being mentioned in a song is any different to someone being killed in a film

 

[LuGoJ]

Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16048828


Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16175956

This, amongst other amphetamines, are obviously substances that alter many aspects of sexual behavior. To me, it constitutes as rape. There is no difference between getting a girl liquored up or loved up and taking advantage of her. Even for her to take the MDMA for the first time, not fully knowing its mind altering effects, and proceeding to engage in intercourse, is a grey area, let alone spiking her drink and having the MDMA be responsible for engineering her decision to engage in intercourse.

Talking about it is also equally as despicable as performing it. The fact they talk about "murdering people" without repercussions is what has become such a let off for them in 'rapping' about other subjects. Just because they talk about one and it has grown into music culture as acceptable in which it is truly not, doesn't make the other any better. It's an indication of the decline of music and civilization as a whole that some think otherwise. Sad but true.

What about people that write fictional horror stories like saw and hostel etc? Equally despicable or entertaining?

 

[23536]

What about people that write fictional horror stories like saw and hostel etc? Equally despicable or entertaining?

Are rappers supposed to be speaking in character?

When I used to write poetry I wrote some first-person pieces about cannibalism and torture. Readers would routinely be scandalized, but it was all metaphor.

 

[Crankinit]

What about people that write fictional horror stories like saw and hostel etc? Equally despicable or entertaining?

I'd call them despicable for making such terrible movies.

 

[LuGoJ]

Are rappers supposed to be speaking in character?

When I used to write poetry I wrote some first-person pieces about cannibalism and torture. Readers would routinely be scandalized, but it was all metaphor.

Huh? I don’t have a problem with any fictional works. I was asking that poster whether or not they found the people that write violent fictional movies(or any creative works, books etc) as despicable as the rappers he despises for that very reason.

 

[23536]

^I know. It wasn't intended as a rhetorical question. Are rappers presumed to be speaking in character? Do most listeners assume it to be fiction or nonfiction?

 

[pasha]

What about people that write fictional horror stories like saw and hostel etc? Equally despicable or entertaining?

There's a big difference between fictional films and music. Fictional films, are fictional. Everyone knows that, old, young, whoever. Music on the other hand, and the artists who create it, become idols, and sooner or later, the listener/watcher will engage in idol worship. For people who are young, and even those who are mature, it becomes difficult to draw the line between fiction and reality. These music videos are intended not to seem fictional. It's completely obvious because all you see are teens, prepubertals. adolescents, etc, modelling their behavior on these rap stars, wearing the same clothes, talking in the same manner, picking fights, being aggressive. Sure movies can teach the same thing, but again, the line between fiction and reality in movies is much clearer. You don't see anyone modelling their behavior on movie characters, nearly as often as people modelling their behavior on rap artists.

Also, comparing movies and music is apples and oranges, in movies they discuss such subjects, but throughout you have a plot, a theme, a protagonist, antagonist, etc. You finish the movie and you absorb and intended moral. Like reading a book. In a music video, what exactly are you seeing through the writers eyes?

You or anyone else maybe bright enough to view modern rap music as movie, or a joke for a lack of a better word. For someone who is 13-14, listening to music talking about spiking drinks, guns, knives, fucking bitches, isn't healthy in any sense of the word. What's so wrong with music conveying a story, poetry, feelings, or good morals?

I enjoy rap, but when it becomes so silly to the point where an entire song is based around spiking a girls drink, it becomes plain boring. Biggie was a lyricist, his rap was unpredictable, had style, swagger, everything you want in a rap song while smoking a joint. Yes, he is talking about murder, but the rap is so good to a degree that it over shadows anything else. Tupac was a rebel, his mother was a black panther. You have subjects covering love, politics, the human condition, and much more. This is what I call substance. Now you listen to lil wayne and rick boss, and all they do is slur their words together and talk shit. Music for the feeble minded if you ask me.

 

[23536]

Reebok cancels its advertising deal with Rick Ross:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/04/11/3338769/reebok-drops-rick-ross-following.html

 

[20max10]

So according to reebok mudering people and selling kilos of cocaine is fair play, but putting mdma in a girls drink is too far

fucking pussies giving in to media pressure

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Before I am an artist, I am a father, a son, and a brother to some of the most cherished women in the world. So for me to suggest in any way that harm and violation be brought to a woman is one of my biggest mistakes and regrets. As an artist, one of the most liberating things is being able to paint pictures with my words. But with that comes a great responsibility. And most recently, my choice of words was not only offensive, it does not reflect my true heart. And for this, I apologize. To every woman that has felt the sting of abuse, I apologize. I recognize that as an artist I have a voice and with that, the power of influence. To the young men who listen to my music, please know that using a substance to rob a woman of her right to make a choice is not only a crime, it’s wrong and I do not encourage it. To my fans, I also apologize if I have disappointed you. I can only hope that this sparks a healthy dialogue and that I can contribute to it.

http://pitchfork.com/news/50312-rick-ross-issues-formal-apology-for-controversial-ueono-verse/

 

[Pretty_Diamonds]

This guy I was dating, spiked my vodka shot with a roll. His friends and him said it was a joke and didn't think I was going to drink it. I didn't even see it.. Lol. Half an hour later or so, in his car, dropping my friend off (broad daylight)... I turned to him and said, why do I feel like I'm rolling? He cracks up and tells me the whole story and I freak out since it's like Monday morning and I have all these errands to run. -_-

 

[ro4eva]

“Put molly all in her champagne, she aint even know it,” he raps.

I don't know what kind of molly Rick Ross does but, oh I think she'll definitely know something's up.