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Cleanest stims for chronic use?

To what extent do "clean stimulants" for chronic usage differ from those that are "clean" with sporadic usage? I can't in good conscience recommend any stimulant for chronic usage. If you happen to respond to it well, a long-lasting reuptake inhibitor highly selective for dopamine over norepinephrine would likely be your best bet, but acutely, releasers tend to feel a lot 'smoother' than reuptake inhibitors in the short term.
 
ebola? said:
If you happen to respond to it well, a long-lasting reuptake inhibitor highly selective for dopamine over norepinephrine would likely be your best bet.
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That's why I was highly interested in Fencamfamine. Since it has been withdrawn in the U.S. and is still schedule IV couldn't I technically get a script for it from over seas?
 
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sekio said:
So in summary, amphetamine is already known to cause your brain stress via flooding its "communication circuitry" with messages. Constant electrical activity in the brain is not healthy - it's stressful for your brain cells and will eventually cause cell death. Amphetamine has been proven to be neurotoxic if abused - and if meth is more potent and even more stressful on cells, I think it should be avoided except in desperate cases.
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Thanks a lot for this explanation, Sekio. It does leave me wondering, though about the effect of the type of electrical activity on neurotoxicity. Take, for example, Tramadol. It interrupts the activity of the NET and SERT (and apparently may even slightly reverse activity of the serotonin transporter). Also, as it's an opioid, it causes dopamine release in at least some areas of the brain. So quite a lot of brain communication, really.

Yet it's not usually considered to be neurotoxic. Is this because reuptake inhibition somehow does not cause neurotoxicity to the same extent as the release of neurotransmitters? Or simply because Tramadol's activity at each of the sites mentioned is relatively weak compared to say, meth? Or some other reason?

My entire knowledge of such things is cobbled together from reading BL and Wikipedia so hopefully this question makes sense.
 
Yet it's not usually considered to be neurotoxic. Is this because reuptake inhibition somehow does not cause neurotoxicity to the same extent as the release of neurotransmitters?
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Yes, and it's in particular concurrent release of dopamine and serotonin that is quite neurotoxic. Transporters that are reversed via phosphorylation are prone to taking up various toxic metabolites of monoamines, and the effect of SERT taking up metabolites of dopamine appears particularly bad.

Or simply because Tramadol's activity at each of the sites mentioned is relatively weak compared to say, meth?
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This too, really. In general, reuptake inhibitors have vastly less efficacy than releasing agents. Also, tramadol's effect on dopamine is profoundly downstream, and doesn't involve any alteration of transporter activity.

ebola
 
ebola? said:
Yes, and it's in particular concurrent release of dopamine and serotonin that is quite neurotoxic. Transporters that are reversed via phosphorylation are prone to taking up various toxic metabolites of monoamines, and the effect of SERT taking up metabolites of dopamine appears particularly bad.
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Wow, that's really interesting. And now things make a lot more sense. Thanks.
 
i would suggest something like schizandra/rhodiola/ginseng + green tea. it may work good inuff + it's healthy, not as chemicals which will fuck you up slowly.
 
yeah green tea(and piracetam and/or aniracetam for max effect) or low dose dexamp + antioxidants+other supplements+eating/drinking/excersizing/sleeping

can't really use any stim chronically without it progressively getting worse side effect wise, but if you're healthy when you use them and do take maybe weekend breaks or something and low doses of a stim with lots of history and data behind it like dex-amphetamine that seems like the best bet.
 
ebola? said:
To what extent do "clean stimulants" for chronic usage differ from those that are "clean" with sporadic usage? I can't in good conscience recommend any stimulant for chronic usage. If you happen to respond to it well, a long-lasting reuptake inhibitor highly selective for dopamine over norepinephrine would likely be your best bet, but acutely, releasers tend to feel a lot 'smoother' than reuptake inhibitors in the short term.
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Speaking of DRIs, could you recommend one besides Wellbutrin? Maybe low dose MPH?
 
Dysphoric said:
I didn't feel anything from Rhodiola other than slight anxiety.
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same. tried it many more times than once too. wasn't on any other drugs, just gave me general slight anxiety(enough to be annoying but not enough to really matter).
 
If you are looking for an improvement above and beyond the discussed stimulants, I would greatly recommend the CILTeP stack. I don't have the specifics on how it works, but from what I recall it uses increased dopamine levels to potentiate cAMP-4 levels (using forskolin) and some sort of bioflavanoid to benefit absorbtion of the forskolin. The stack is as follows:

100mg-150mg caffeine
L-Phenylalanine (not sure the exact dose, but the amount in a 5-hour energy works)
Artichoke Extract (500mg)
Forskholi Extract (20mg)

I haven't heard a bad thing about this, and everyone who uses it goes for months seeing zero decrease in its effectiveness. For most people, the Artichoke extract is enough, but some people prefer to use Quercetin which causes the effects to last much longer (the people in the first group report insomnia and so prefer to stick with the artichoke). Check online if you are looking to supplement.

Note that this stack is VERY POTENT. I am personally super-sensitive to stim-induced anxiety, but I feel zero anxiety on this stack, just extreme focus and motivation. The added benefit is that while most "focus drugs" tend to make me less social, this stack actually makes me MORE social, I find myself being extremely extroverted and talkative since I started taking this. I may be overhyping it, but I strongly endorse the stack.
 
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WabbaJack said:
If you are looking for an improvement above and beyond the discussed stimulants, I would greatly recommend the CILTeP stack. I don't have the specifics on how it works, but from what I recall it uses increased dopamine levels to potentiate cAMP-4 levels (using forskolin) and some sort of bioflavanoid to benefit absorbtion of the forskolin. The stack is as follows:

100mg-150mg caffeine
L-Phenylalanine (not sure the exact dose, but the amount in a 5-hour energy works)
Artichoke Extract (500mg)
Forskholi Extract (20mg)

I haven't heard a bad thing about this, and everyone who uses it goes for months seeing zero decrease in its effectiveness. For most people, the Artichoke extract is enough, but some people prefer to use Quercetin which causes the effects to last much longer (the people in the first group report insomnia and so prefer to stick with the artichoke). Check online if you are looking to supplement.

Note that this stack is VERY POTENT. I am personally super-sensitive to stim-induced anxiety, but I feel zero anxiety on this stack, just extreme focus and motivation. The added benefit is that while most "focus drugs" tend to make me less social, this stack actually makes me MORE social, I find myself being extremely extroverted and talkative since I started taking this. I may be overhyping it, but I strongly endorse the stack.
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cAMP-4 should be PDE-4, cAMP is cAMP is cAMP no matter the enzymes that break it down. This looks like something someone on reddit or imminst cranked out.

As for flavonoid supplementation: if it works for you great, but personally I favor a handfull of berries instead. It's cheaper and I haven't read any literature pointing to advantages for supplementation over a proper diet.

So what you have is a 5Hour Energy + forskholii extract. On paper it looks decent enough, though the latter part long-term hasn't been researched much so who knows what it will turn out to do long term.

*casts stare over to COX2 inhibitiors and their ironic relationship with ED*
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
cAMP-4 should be PDE-4, cAMP is cAMP is cAMP no matter the enzymes that break it down. This looks like something someone on reddit or imminst cranked out.

As for flavonoid supplementation: if it works for you great, but personally I favor a handfull of berries instead. It's cheaper and I haven't read any literature pointing to advantages for supplementation over a proper diet.

So what you have is a 5Hour Energy + forskholii extract. On paper it looks decent enough, though the latter part long-term hasn't been researched much so who knows what it will turn out to do long term.

*casts stare over to COX2 inhibitiors and their ironic relationship with ED*
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I found it on Longecity, bunch of much smarter people than me, and they definitely understand it much better than I do. Here's the thread. http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/51732-chemically-induced-ltp/
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
however that site tends to be full of laypeople who may overstate how important some factors are.
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This is the main reason I come here. I really haven't found any other site online with similar level of expertise, with cited sources.

I wish I had known about this trait of Bluelight sooner, I would have joined well before I did.
 
LuxEtVeritas said:
Wanted to get some opinions on cleanest stim for non-rec chronic use (chronic fatigue, insomniacs, et al)
i guess ultimate criteria is a clean feel for focus, mood, least potential sides, least tolerance, ability to not interfere with sleep et al)
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If by cleanest you mean a long-lasting and dull (dull as in little to no euphoria) yet relatively potent working stimulant then perhaps you should look into Desoxypipradrol. It is structurally related to the most commonly known "clean" stimulant methylphenidate but has less abuse potential due to its lack of rewarding euphoria. Personally I don't like it much (a little euphoria is always welcome in the morning) but as functionality goes this one seem to fit your bill.
 
"Clean" means with few or no side-effects - the opposite of a "dirty" drug.

It has nothing to do with duration or "dull".

To date, Fluorenol (9-Hydroxyfluorene, aka. Hydrafinil, aka. Eugerafinil) is by forum reports the cleanest stimulant.
 
Desoxypipradol is not to be used for chronic, daily consumption.

By forum reports it produces fast tolerance.

Worse, 2-DPMP produces some nasty side effecs. Here's quotes from a few forum reports:

"8 days no sleep. 100mg stash..... 2 X 4mg doses. rest in bin. psychosis . paranoia for 4days of this"

"If you see in the beginning of this thread I was of the belief that I could control my use, but as you can see in my trip report of my experience I couldn't and it only went from bad to worse and psychosis. Was lucky to escape alive."

(Desoxypipradrol) + (2CI )+ (benzos) - First Time with desoxy - Psychosis (EPIC)
 
Isochromium said:
"Clean" means with few or no side-effects - the opposite of a "dirty" drug.

It has nothing to do with duration or "dull".
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I know what clean means but perhaps you aren't aware that among "dull's" many definitions one is simply something like "straight and steady" which can be considered a quality depending on context :)
 
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