Stimulants Bupropion for mood lift in the non-depressed.

[someguyontheinternet]

To me snorted bupropion felt like something that's more of a slight reminder how stims can feel than really causing feeling of a real stim.

So you're saying its like the lacroix of stimulants?

 

[Neuroprotection]

Well if you are depressed and it works than it certainly can be useful for work. If used as "off-label" functional stim than I think many other things could work much better. Simply cuz, no matter it's a shitty high when snorted it's not on the functional stim side ime, not at all. While chewed that stimulating effect was lot less but mood lift was present. So how much of that mood lift can be translated to motivational effect idk.
Honestly from your posts I keep getting feeling that you would benefit more from something relaxing than uplifting as a mean to getting work done. Given your stressful situation etc you might be surprised how proper relaxation can lead to getting stuff done. And how many people get amped up in any way in any intensity and don't end up doing anything they intend to.

Thank you for that deep insight. what you said really resonates with me now. especially when I remember that some of the most productive days in my life was when I had no family/social stress And was in a good routine with lots of free time.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Thank you for that deep insight. what you said really resonates with me now. especially when I remember that some of the most productive days in my life was when I had no family/social stress And was in a good routine with lots of free time.

Getting to stress free feeling with a help of drugs is double edged sword but sometimes is a lesser evil than letting stress totally get you.

 

[CFC]

Yes, modafinil does sound interesting and of course it has a dopaminergic component as you stated. however, many studies show that this is an indirect effect and the Orexin system plays a much greater role. I do think modafinil could be a nice transition away from caffeine. However, I’ve read quite a few reports of modafinil being pretty similar to caffeine in that it does not strongly enhance motivation and feels like a long acting stronger version of caffeine. it’s not really about tolerance for me, because I can still feel the effects of caffeine quite strongly. it’s just that the stimulation which caffeine provides just doesn’t help me with mental tasks. It works wonders for exercise/movement, but as soon as I want to sit down and focus, my mind feels completely scattered, Sometimes increasing my urge to run away from the task exponentially. if you’ve seen my other posts, you’ve probably come across my mention of nicotine and how it makes me able to sit down and get through work bystrangely altering my emotional responses. nicotine is much more dopaminergic than caffeine, particularly at the very high doses I would take it at which makes me wonder if increasing dopamine levels without the adenosine receptor blockade of caffeine is the best way to go.

In regards to why I am particularly interested in bupropion, that’s because it seems to increase dopamine and norepinephrine levels in a gentle but beneficial manner making it suitable for long-term use with out the mood swings and other somewhat aggressive actions of traditional psychostimulants.

I think all I'm trying to make you (more) cognizant of is the fact you appear to be making what look like rather sweeping, declarative statements about how a drug will/won't work based purely off secondhand information.

You'd ideally need to try it yourself a few times before reaching those conclusions, because subjective experiences vary so wildly, especially so for more neurodivergent types and where we're using drugs for specific (and sometimes unanticipated or more left-field) reasons.

You also appear to be getting bogged down in a morass of detail(s) that don't strictly mean anything beyond their value in terms of abstract or intellectual curiosity. Which is, of course, a very ADHD thing to do, and so I do empathize with the thought process, but it isn't really 'getting you anywhere' when what you need is some personal experience. I only say all this because I already have a modest grasp of your challenges and difficulties based on what you've posted over the last few months

FWIW, your trauma experience WRT procrastination/task initiation etc is - as we've discussed before - not dissimilar to my own and many others whose neurological profile tends toward ADHD/ASD etc. For many, GABA seems to actually be more important, particularly when it comes to dampening some of the inhibitory emotional dysfunction. If you read about ADHD, as you clearly have, you'll find dysfunction of GABA circuitry comes up quite a bit in research, and is hypothesized to be heavily involved in the development of various issues, even if the etiology ultimately turns out to be secondary to primary dysfunction via NE/DA etc.

I tend to suspect the torrent of traumatically baked in emotions that hit us as adults attempting to perform certain tasks (either consciously or subconsciously) overwhelm our comparatively limited capacity to process those heightened maladapted emotions, and likely throws us into that miserable state of agonized stasis we know and fear so well.

Thus, a combination of something GABAergic to unlock congested emotional circuitry, with a stimulant to keep the energy and focus going long enough to complete a task, often appears to work better than either alone. Some folks like @Tranced swear that their ADHD is actually much better managed with something like a benzo than a stimulant, though naturally it can be hard to unpick how much a preference emerges from pleasurable experiences vs enhancement of function (and/or the inevitable chicken-and-egg scenario that likely underpins both conceptions).

 

[someguyontheinternet]

At low doses GABAa modulators have a paradoxical effect of inducing stimulation due to disinhibition

 

[Neuroprotection]

Getting to stress free feeling with a help of drugs is double edged sword but sometimes is a lesser evil than letting stress totally get you.

Good point. Though probably not a popular opinion, I actually think dealing with stress using drugs is somewhat of an art or a science in that it is full of variety and can produce great results with little side-effects. you just have to know what you’re doing And of course, it depends on the substance one is using.
I know I’ve mentioned this a lot, but I just want to know if you Think I might have abnormal reactions to substances. I just wonder why I have such a positive response to nicotine and why using it daily seems to put me in a strange functional and stress resilient state. this goes against the conventional scientific/medical wisdom as well as the experience of my father, who was a lifelong smoker that nicotine, worsens stress and decreases productivity.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think all I'm trying to make you (more) cognizant of is the fact you appear to be making what look like rather sweeping, declarative statements about how a drug will/won't work based purely off secondhand information.

You'd ideally need to try it yourself a few times before reaching those conclusions, because subjective experiences vary so wildly, especially so for more neurodivergent types and where we're using drugs for specific (and sometimes unanticipated or more left-field) reasons.

You also appear to be getting bogged down in a morass of detail(s) that don't strictly mean anything beyond their value in terms of abstract or intellectual curiosity. Which is, of course, a very ADHD thing to do, and so I do empathize with the thought process, but it isn't really 'getting you anywhere' when what you need is some personal experience. I only say all this because I already have a modest grasp of your challenges and difficulties based on what you've posted over the last few months

FWIW, your trauma experience WRT procrastination/task initiation etc is - as we've discussed before - not dissimilar to my own and many others whose neurological profile tends toward ADHD/ASD etc. For many, GABA seems to actually be more important, particularly when it comes to dampening some of the inhibitory emotional dysfunction. If you read about ADHD, as you clearly have, you'll find dysfunction of GABA circuitry comes up quite a bit in research, and is hypothesized to be heavily involved in the development of various issues, even if the etiology ultimately turns out to be secondary to primary dysfunction via NE/DA etc.

I tend to suspect the torrent of traumatically baked in emotions that hit us as adults attempting to perform certain tasks (either consciously or subconsciously) overwhelm our comparatively limited capacity to process those heightened maladapted emotions, and likely throws us into that miserable state of agonized stasis we know and fear so well.

Thus, a combination of something GABAergic to unlock congested emotional circuitry, with a stimulant to keep the energy and focus going long enough to complete a task, often appears to work better than either alone. Some folks like @Tranced swear that their ADHD is actually much better managed with something like a benzo than a stimulant, though naturally it can be hard to unpick how much a preference emerges from pleasurable experiences vs enhancement of function (and/or the inevitable chicken-and-egg scenario that likely underpins both conceptions).

Thank you very much for that thoughtful and insightful reply. you are right, I should really try each substance a few times and that is what I hope to do. I think it will be an exciting journey for me, especially given that I will do this once I’m fully off caffeine.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I think that kappa opioid antagonists actually have great potential in helping stress related issues/disorders. Dynorphin signaling seems to be involved in stress response

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think that kappa opioid antagonists actually have great potential in helping stress related issues/disorders. Dynorphin signaling seems to be involved in stress response

Yes of course. I actually made a thread about that a few months ago. I think one of the main problems with Kappa opioid antagonists currently, is that those in clinical trials are very weak and short-acting. The more powerful antagonists used in research, which technically very selectively obliterate the kappa Receptor for weeks on end, have very poor blood brain barrier permeability and some of them were linked to possible cardiac side-effects. this is unfortunate, because it is likely that prolonged blockade of the kappa opioid receptor is needed for true efficacy against depression and anhedonia.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

At low doses GABAa modulators have a paradoxical effect of inducing stimulation due to disinhibition

Not only. To me it's same as with physical pain and opiates. When opiates remove pain I can get more energetic and willing/able to do something, ofc mental pain they deal with too is also important.
Benzos sometimes help with my physical pain a bit too (cuz of muscle relaxation) but that's not as important as fact that hey make me more energetic cuz grey clouds disperse.
That energetic effect from opiates and benzos is different than from stimulants but often result in me being more productive than on stims. Well adding a bit of stims to opiate or benzos make that even more pronounced, but even coffee will often do.
I know most people are not like that.

 

[Tranced]

I think all I'm trying to make you (more) cognizant of is the fact you appear to be making what look like rather sweeping, declarative statements about how a drug will/won't work based purely off secondhand information.

You'd ideally need to try it yourself a few times before reaching those conclusions, because subjective experiences vary so wildly, especially so for more neurodivergent types and where we're using drugs for specific (and sometimes unanticipated or more left-field) reasons.

You also appear to be getting bogged down in a morass of detail(s) that don't strictly mean anything beyond their value in terms of abstract or intellectual curiosity. Which is, of course, a very ADHD thing to do, and so I do empathize with the thought process, but it isn't really 'getting you anywhere' when what you need is some personal experience. I only say all this because I already have a modest grasp of your challenges and difficulties based on what you've posted over the last few months

FWIW, your trauma experience WRT procrastination/task initiation etc is - as we've discussed before - not dissimilar to my own and many others whose neurological profile tends toward ADHD/ASD etc. For many, GABA seems to actually be more important, particularly when it comes to dampening some of the inhibitory emotional dysfunction. If you read about ADHD, as you clearly have, you'll find dysfunction of GABA circuitry comes up quite a bit in research, and is hypothesized to be heavily involved in the development of various issues, even if the etiology ultimately turns out to be secondary to primary dysfunction via NE/DA etc.

I tend to suspect the torrent of traumatically baked in emotions that hit us as adults attempting to perform certain tasks (either consciously or subconsciously) overwhelm our comparatively limited capacity to process those heightened maladapted emotions, and likely throws us into that miserable state of agonized stasis we know and fear so well.

Thus, a combination of something GABAergic to unlock congested emotional circuitry, with a stimulant to keep the energy and focus going long enough to complete a task, often appears to work better than either alone. Some folks like @Tranced swear that their ADHD is actually much better managed with something like a benzo than a stimulant, though naturally it can be hard to unpick how much a preference emerges from pleasurable experiences vs enhancement of function (and/or the inevitable chicken-and-egg scenario that likely underpins both conceptions).

At low doses GABAa modulators have a paradoxical effect of inducing stimulation due to disinhibition

It was @zophen / @B9 who first told me I was experiencing an atypical reaction via benzo use. They really stimulate me and make me get stuff done. Not stimulate like, like a phen stim, of course, but I suddenly enjoy things like shopping and want to do it which I hate. I suddenly start doing everything I've been puting off - both things I love, and things I hate. Way, way better than amphetamine/dexamph. The only problem is, the cognitive defect is the achilles heel. I can't sleep for shit after benzos, unless I'm on stims

I used to be able to counteract that with nootropics before they got banned in the UK - I was using ridiculous stacks when I was doing high dose benzo powders, but they helped. Modafinil, aniracetam, phenylpirarectam, oxyracetam. I've got all my very messy logs from when I did numerous, numerous grams of etizolam/xanax powders (over a few months), and you can see my cognitive ability visibly improve via my writing after I take them.

Pregabalin
Gabapentin

These also help me a lot. Not as good as benzos for motivation and drive, but better cognitive ability. Thing is, pregabalin/gabapentin don't actually work on GABA like once thought, do they?

FTR one stim that really does work for me is 4-fmph. CFC did you try that iirc?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think that such positive paradoxical reactions to drugs tells us something about how boosting reward function in the brain or suppressing the stress systems, especially those that fight against reward can go such a long way in helping us. isn’t it quite unfortunate that Anti-reward systems are not subject to tolerance and instead undergo sensitisation/strengthening. actually, it is unlikely that the reward system itself undergo serious tolerance, rather it is the Anti-reward components which work together to suppress it. however, I am more optimistic that as we learn more about such systems, we will find a way to let the reward system run wild and to shut down pro depressive systems at will. does that mean we will be happy forever? in my opinion, no, it doesn’t but I think it could go along way in helping us achieve our goals.

 

[CFC]

FTR one stim that really does work for me is 4-fmph. CFC did you try that iirc?

Yeah I found it to feel more 'serious' and productive (and much less fun) than a typical stim, which helped keep doses under control. Shame it hasn't been explored as a prescription option as it's a good candidate for ADHD.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yeah I found it to feel more 'serious' and productive (and much less fun) than a typical stim, which helped keep doses under control. Shame it hasn't been explored as a prescription option as it's a good candidate for ADHD.

I believe it’s a much stronger and selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor than methylphenidate and is weaker at the norepinephrine transporter. perhaps the reason why it wasn’t medically approved is because of the increased risk of tolerance/dependence potential. just theorising here, i’ve not researched that compound in detail.