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BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Opioids At breaking point and have no idea what to do from here.
- Thread starter Slayer0344
- Start date
tokayeahok
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hey man i read that you’re not really wanting to do MAT/Subs, but can i ask why? I mean I know it’s a pain but it’s just a medication that addresses an illness as thousands of other medications do. Maybe it could do you some good - Id personally do subs or kratom for a week & go and get the sublocade shot.
try kratom if you’re against MAT! it helped me loads of times. I’m on day 4 kicking myself and i finally got on subs, so i’ll give that a try this time! come on over to the recovery chat if you want, some posters above are in there as well!
the cycle, it’s really sinister, but try to do some digging maybe to see the best and safest approach logically & objectively that you can do to get off full agonists. i’m not one to hand out advice nor do i care to since i’m also in the same exact scenario but just maybe open up to MAT or something that can work well for you.
big ups
try kratom if you’re against MAT! it helped me loads of times. I’m on day 4 kicking myself and i finally got on subs, so i’ll give that a try this time! come on over to the recovery chat if you want, some posters above are in there as well!
the cycle, it’s really sinister, but try to do some digging maybe to see the best and safest approach logically & objectively that you can do to get off full agonists. i’m not one to hand out advice nor do i care to since i’m also in the same exact scenario but just maybe open up to MAT or something that can work well for you.
big ups
tokayeahok
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oh wait i just read the replies - as i was replying to the initial post.
okay so you are on bupe. if it’s been 48 hours from strictly pharmaceutical opioids like morphine or oxy, you’re good to take subs. dose 1-2mg and see how you feel 30m later.
if it’s fentanyl, i hate to break it to you but you’ll need to wait 5-6 days to safely induct and it’ll still be a rough induction.
i threw myself into precipitated withdrawal yesterday dosing subs to induct and i was only 83 hours off fent. it’s maddening how lipophilic it is.
okay so you are on bupe. if it’s been 48 hours from strictly pharmaceutical opioids like morphine or oxy, you’re good to take subs. dose 1-2mg and see how you feel 30m later.
if it’s fentanyl, i hate to break it to you but you’ll need to wait 5-6 days to safely induct and it’ll still be a rough induction.
i threw myself into precipitated withdrawal yesterday dosing subs to induct and i was only 83 hours off fent. it’s maddening how lipophilic it is.
Slayer0344
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No no it’s been 6 hours since morphine dose 48 hours since last sub dose of 0.5mg I have subs here but am worried I’ll go into precipated withdrawal?
Slayer0344
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I
Ive been on subs for a year. Ran out two days ago. Used morphine and oxy to try help withdrawal. Now I have subs again but scared to take after 2 days without whilst I’ve been using oxy and morphine
tokayeahok
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if you’ve been stable on subs, and used oxy and morphine, you still have tons of bupe on your receptors. so no, no need to worry about precipitated withdrawal. i promise you’re all good buddy. that only happens when you’re on full agonists like say if you were on oxy and trying to jump to subs. the bupe is still sitting on those receptors even though it’s been 2 days, and the affinity of bupe is way higher than both of those drugs you mentioned, so yeah you’ll be perfectly fine to take your subs
Slayer0344
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What about the fact it’s only been a low dose of bupe I’ve been on? Only a total of 1mg per day divided into 0.5mg doses
Slayer0344
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Ok
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Hey guys! 
@Slayer0344 I hear you about being a hamster on a wheel. I think anyone here can relate to that analogy. There is no easy way to get off the wheel. To do it successfully, you need a plan and you need to absolutely stick with the plan that you make.
I've known people who have allegedly solved their Opioid (or other drug) problem themselves by titration. This is highly unusual though. Most people are not able to do the full about-face required on their own. If you want my advice, you should consider going into detox. Detox is not a magic bullet though. Detox is you admitting you can't figure it out and handing over the keys to your life to someone else for 5-7 days. Sometimes this is what we need. It was a vital part of my own journey. It stops you spinning on that wheel long enough to gain perspective on your situation. You are locked in, so you can totally forget about all of those nagging "maybe I should go score" feelings. Those feelings are hard enough even if they don't lead you to a relapse. Knowing it is not a possibility to easily go score is helpful.
Once you get out, you're going to need something to keep you going. This is different for everybody. I do believe that there has to be daily reflection on your feelings. This is easily obtained through programs like the 12-steps. There are also other programs based upon this constant catharsis like SMART Recovery and others. You can pick one that works for you. You do need to pick one though. I've known some people who make Church their AA. In my opinion, it's not a great choice, but whatever works for you.
I'm always disappointed to hear people are not wiling to try Methadone for whatever reason. They are often concerned with the dependency on the clinic. This is a reasonable concern, however, I feel many folks with this opinion are failing to recognize how totally dependent they are already on the much-less stable relationship of dealer/client. People also talk about how insane it is to go to an AA meeting every day, when really, we're awake for 16 hours a day, is one hour of that time too much to completely fix your life? Not really in my opinion.
My advice in the end would be to go to detox. After detox, you should do sober living for 3 months, perhaps longer. There's nothing wrong with living at a sober house for an entire year if you feel safe and comfortable there. Throughout this time, you need to entrench yourself in some kind of recovery program. As I've said already, the 12 steps were my choice. They aren't perfect, but they are everywhere, around the clock. Take what you like from the program and leave the rest, provided you are being fully honest with yourself and others.
The main idea is that you need to load everything possible into your shotgun and shoot it at the problem. Don't "try this" or "try that", draw a line in the sand and dive into your program headfirst. Don't be the guy that is not willing to give up a few months of his life for happiness. This is the guy that ends up spending decades in misery before dying. He just had too much that was important to him, a job, an apartment or what have you. It all is worthless in the grand scheme of your life if it leads you to continue on the path you're on.
To be less-philosophical, Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is fast becoming obsolete in the face of our current illicit Opioid supply. I hear more and more people describe their Buprenorphine as something that essentially just fucks with their ability to use. They take it as access is so easy and most docs still believe it's just as viable as it once was. Buprenorphine strikes me as being more of a mindfuck than a viable treatment these days.
For this reason, a lot of folks' only choice is Methadone. It's not perfect. It's not the greatest. It's not exactly what we all want i.e. Heroin, but it's the best we have right now. If you have any questions dude, feel free to write me here or in my mailbox,
@Slayer0344 I hear you about being a hamster on a wheel. I think anyone here can relate to that analogy. There is no easy way to get off the wheel. To do it successfully, you need a plan and you need to absolutely stick with the plan that you make.
I've known people who have allegedly solved their Opioid (or other drug) problem themselves by titration. This is highly unusual though. Most people are not able to do the full about-face required on their own. If you want my advice, you should consider going into detox. Detox is not a magic bullet though. Detox is you admitting you can't figure it out and handing over the keys to your life to someone else for 5-7 days. Sometimes this is what we need. It was a vital part of my own journey. It stops you spinning on that wheel long enough to gain perspective on your situation. You are locked in, so you can totally forget about all of those nagging "maybe I should go score" feelings. Those feelings are hard enough even if they don't lead you to a relapse. Knowing it is not a possibility to easily go score is helpful.
Once you get out, you're going to need something to keep you going. This is different for everybody. I do believe that there has to be daily reflection on your feelings. This is easily obtained through programs like the 12-steps. There are also other programs based upon this constant catharsis like SMART Recovery and others. You can pick one that works for you. You do need to pick one though. I've known some people who make Church their AA. In my opinion, it's not a great choice, but whatever works for you.
I'm always disappointed to hear people are not wiling to try Methadone for whatever reason. They are often concerned with the dependency on the clinic. This is a reasonable concern, however, I feel many folks with this opinion are failing to recognize how totally dependent they are already on the much-less stable relationship of dealer/client. People also talk about how insane it is to go to an AA meeting every day, when really, we're awake for 16 hours a day, is one hour of that time too much to completely fix your life? Not really in my opinion.
My advice in the end would be to go to detox. After detox, you should do sober living for 3 months, perhaps longer. There's nothing wrong with living at a sober house for an entire year if you feel safe and comfortable there. Throughout this time, you need to entrench yourself in some kind of recovery program. As I've said already, the 12 steps were my choice. They aren't perfect, but they are everywhere, around the clock. Take what you like from the program and leave the rest, provided you are being fully honest with yourself and others.
The main idea is that you need to load everything possible into your shotgun and shoot it at the problem. Don't "try this" or "try that", draw a line in the sand and dive into your program headfirst. Don't be the guy that is not willing to give up a few months of his life for happiness. This is the guy that ends up spending decades in misery before dying. He just had too much that was important to him, a job, an apartment or what have you. It all is worthless in the grand scheme of your life if it leads you to continue on the path you're on.
To be less-philosophical, Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is fast becoming obsolete in the face of our current illicit Opioid supply. I hear more and more people describe their Buprenorphine as something that essentially just fucks with their ability to use. They take it as access is so easy and most docs still believe it's just as viable as it once was. Buprenorphine strikes me as being more of a mindfuck than a viable treatment these days.
For this reason, a lot of folks' only choice is Methadone. It's not perfect. It's not the greatest. It's not exactly what we all want i.e. Heroin, but it's the best we have right now. If you have any questions dude, feel free to write me here or in my mailbox,
Slayer0344
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
- Messages
- 178
Hey guys!
@Slayer0344 I hear you about being a hamster on a wheel. I think anyone here can relate to that analogy. There is no easy way to get off the wheel. To do it successfully, you need a plan and you need to absolutely stick with the plan that you make.
I've known people who have allegedly solved their Opioid (or other drug) problem themselves by titration. This is highly unusual though. Most people are not able to do the full about-face required on their own. If you want my advice, you should consider going into detox. Detox is not a magic bullet though. Detox is you admitting you can't figure it out and handing over the keys to your life to someone else for 5-7 days. Sometimes this is what we need. It was a vital part of my own journey. It stops you spinning on that wheel long enough to gain perspective on your situation. You are locked in, so you can totally forget about all of those nagging "maybe I should go score" feelings. Those feelings are hard enough even if they don't lead you to a relapse. Knowing it is not a possibility to easily go score is helpful.
Once you get out, you're going to need something to keep you going. This is different for everybody. I do believe that there has to be daily reflection on your feelings. This is easily obtained through programs like the 12-steps. There are also other programs based upon this constant catharsis like SMART Recovery and others. You can pick one that works for you. You do need to pick one though. I've known some people who make Church their AA. In my opinion, it's not a great choice, but whatever works for you.
I'm always disappointed to hear people are not wiling to try Methadone for whatever reason. They are often concerned with the dependency on the clinic. This is a reasonable concern, however, I feel many folks with this opinion are failing to recognize how totally dependent they are already on the much-less stable relationship of dealer/client. People also talk about how insane it is to go to an AA meeting every day, when really, we're awake for 16 hours a day, is one hour of that time too much to completely fix your life? Not really in my opinion.
My advice in the end would be to go to detox. After detox, you should do sober living for 3 months, perhaps longer. There's nothing wrong with living at a sober house for an entire year if you feel safe and comfortable there. Throughout this time, you need to entrench yourself in some kind of recovery program. As I've said already, the 12 steps were my choice. They aren't perfect, but they are everywhere, around the clock. Take what you like from the program and leave the rest, provided you are being fully honest with yourself and others.
The main idea is that you need to load everything possible into your shotgun and shoot it at the problem. Don't "try this" or "try that", draw a line in the sand and dive into your program headfirst. Don't be the guy that is not willing to give up a few months of his life for happiness. This is the guy that ends up spending decades in misery before dying. He just had too much that was important to him, a job, an apartment or what have you. It all is worthless in the grand scheme of your life if it leads you to continue on the path you're on.
To be less-philosophical, Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is fast becoming obsolete in the face of our current illicit Opioid supply. I hear more and more people describe their Buprenorphine as something that essentially just fucks with their ability to use. They take it as access is so easy and most docs still believe it's just as viable as it once was. Buprenorphine strikes me as being more of a mindfuck than a viable treatment these days.
For this reason, a lot of folks' only choice is Methadone. It's not perfect. It's not the greatest. It's not exactly what we all want i.e. Heroin, but it's the best we have right now. If you have any questions dude, feel free to write me here or in my mailbox,
Thanks for your response Keif,
Our treatment options here in New Zealand are somewhat limited if I’m honest. We do have detox centres. But only 4 in the whole country with 18 month minimum wait lists. No sober living homes either. Regardless I have a wife and 8 year old son plus a business and my athletic career to consider when it comes to thinking about going into a detox.
Some background on my addiction. I was on oxy for 1 year due to a knee injury on the track. Not super high doses. 40mg a day. When I tried to stop obviously withdrawals set in and I simply couldn’t handle a taper the euphoria of oxy was too much for my addict brain i would literally take all my pills before my refills would be due and with life being significantly full of more responsibility than it was in my 20s I decided to switch to Suboxone (boy was that the biggest mistake of my life) I’ve spent the last year on Suboxone but I never went over a 2mg dose and quickly figured out how much stronger it was than oxy. I stayed on a 2mg dose for I’d say 3 months then cut down to 1mg and have been there ever since. Now for the complicated part. In New Zealand you don’t have to pay for Suboxone or methadone. They can’t be prescribed by just any doctor they require an “addiction specialist” to dispense scripts for them (yes we really are in the Stone Age here my friend) now these scripts come with many conditions, you must visit the pharmacy every single day and consume your Suboxone in front of the pharmasist, regular random urine screens, the works. Even if you’re going away they send a script to another pharmacy where you’re going so you can go in daily there. Because of all these conditions I couldn’t handle how disruptive it was and jumped the gun thinking I could get off Suboxone at 1mg no problem and told them I didn’t want to continue on their program. So now we reach my current situation, back and fourth from small street doses of subs, seeking out full agonists once again to stop withdrawal.
I’m in a bit of a pickle that’s for sure.
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You're right man, you are in a pickle. It's not always a good idea to compare yourself to others. In this instance, it's worth stating that your dependency is definitely on the smaller side of the spectrum.
Here in North America, we have people with Fentanyl dependencies that practically defy reason. I know people for whom 400mg Methadone does not male them completely well. Think about walking back from something like that.
I'm not calling you a bitch, I'm making the point that your situation deserves some hope and optimism, as it is totally possible to figure it out.
I am a major proponent of the "use drugs to mitigate symptoms of other drugs" philosophy. I'm working on a catcher name, so bear with me.
What this means?
You're dependent on Opioids, yes. You are not dependent on Benzodiazepines or Gabapentinoids. The idea is to use these drugs to mitigate the pain of withdrawal and stopping their usage before developing dependencies on those drugs.
Benzodiazepines are fairly self-explanatory. They are sedatives. They will numb your mind and body, pretty straightforward.
The drug for junkies in the know however, is Gabapentin (Neurontin). Pregabalin (Lyrica) is just a more potent drug, with essentially similar effects.
Gabapentin has an uncanny knack for relieving symptoms of Opioid withdrawal. You can use it for 7-10 days before it will lose effectiveness. In those days, you will be cutting your dose.
Also, as mentioned, Benzos are useful. Cannabis for mood, appetite, sleep etc. Alcohol is generally contraindicated for Opioid withdrawal as it tends to exacerbate symptoms.
Do you have someone who could potentially prescribe these things? Let me know, we can discuss this further.
Here in North America, we have people with Fentanyl dependencies that practically defy reason. I know people for whom 400mg Methadone does not male them completely well. Think about walking back from something like that.
I'm not calling you a bitch, I'm making the point that your situation deserves some hope and optimism, as it is totally possible to figure it out.
I am a major proponent of the "use drugs to mitigate symptoms of other drugs" philosophy. I'm working on a catcher name, so bear with me.
What this means?
You're dependent on Opioids, yes. You are not dependent on Benzodiazepines or Gabapentinoids. The idea is to use these drugs to mitigate the pain of withdrawal and stopping their usage before developing dependencies on those drugs.
Benzodiazepines are fairly self-explanatory. They are sedatives. They will numb your mind and body, pretty straightforward.
The drug for junkies in the know however, is Gabapentin (Neurontin). Pregabalin (Lyrica) is just a more potent drug, with essentially similar effects.
Gabapentin has an uncanny knack for relieving symptoms of Opioid withdrawal. You can use it for 7-10 days before it will lose effectiveness. In those days, you will be cutting your dose.
Also, as mentioned, Benzos are useful. Cannabis for mood, appetite, sleep etc. Alcohol is generally contraindicated for Opioid withdrawal as it tends to exacerbate symptoms.
Do you have someone who could potentially prescribe these things? Let me know, we can discuss this further.
Slayer0344
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Ironically I actually already have around 100 100mg gabapentin , 100 1mg lorazepam , 100 0.5mg clonazepam in my medicine cupboard(have been sitting there about a year)
How would you suggest I dose those to relieve withdrawal?
How would you suggest I dose those to relieve withdrawal?
I have a shitload
Rachrach
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Codeine consumed is converted to morphine & its metabolites. You should consider codeine to be a tapering tool for morphine. If 30mg IR (orally consumed) is holding you then you are in a good place, all things condidered.
On being able to disregard mental withdrawal...Psychosomatics is a huge factor that most disregard. Not knowing you or your usage, I would venture that the mind plays a roll in your discomfort. Whatever the case may be, just go easy on the morphine, lest you develop a bigger habit with it than you had with buprenorphine.