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Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Gnostic Bishop said:
Original Christianity was the best ancient man could come up with.
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That’s a big claim. From 500 BC to 200 AD and the massive expansion of Roman Christianity there were 100 - 200 million people in the world with an impossible to comprehend diversity of spiritual/social/cultural practices. Yow can you claim early Christianity was the best amongst those practices? Even in The Levant?

What are your criteria for ‘best’? Sexual diversity and gender equality? There is much more to human flourishing than that.
 
For those who believe a person's sexual orientation can be changed by their environment, do you believe conversion therapy practices (religious or non-religious) are effective? Why or why not?
 
w01fg4ng said:
For those who believe a person's sexual orientation can be changed by their environment, do you believe conversion therapy practices (religious or non-religious) are effective? Why or why not?
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I don’t know but I have an open mind to the possibility that they might work. But that’s NOT the same thing as whether they should be allowed or encouraged.

If people can go years and years in denial that they desire same sex experiences because of the social stigma, shame, or moral panic regarding homosexuals in their community but ultimately face their true selves late in life (often after marriage and kids) then surely people can be programmed / re-programmed to go against their natural inclinations in these ‘cures’.

People can be very susceptible to manipulative psychological strategies that ultimately do them great harm.
 
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Atomic_Decay said:
I don’t know but I have an open mind to the possibility that they might work. But that’s the same thing as whether they should be allowed or encouraged.
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The big discrepancy concerning banning the practices of conversion therapy and allowing it is age. Being open to the idea as an adult is not the same as when you were a child and it never will be.

Atomic_Decay said:
People can be very susceptible to manipulative psychological strategies that ultimately do them great harm.
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And this is why this discussion should only be allowed for adults.
 
w01fg4ng said:
The big discrepancy concerning banning the practices of conversion therapy and allowing it is age. Being open to the idea as an adult is not the same as when you were a child and it never will be.


And this is why this discussion should only be allowed for adults.
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Damn. Sorry - there should have been a NOT in my reply. I’ll go back and edit my original post. I am totally opposed to these kind of practices - even though i think they might potentially work.
 
Atomic_Decay said:
...- even though i think they might potentially work.
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Our society is built of people who have been manipulated into believing what they do with their life is their purpose. As a gay male growing up under near perfect social pressure to be heterosexual I am surprised it just didn't take for me.

Socially I couldn't see any example of being gay besides circulated horror stories, living my life in a repressed state with no vision of hope yet still becoming gay seems unlikely. Yes I managed to pretend and fool some people but never truly myself.

All I needed was to see others stand up to realize I wasn't completely alone. But I disagree, I don't believe anything, torture, extreme duress or threats of things that will create fear can actually change a human sexual orientation including the willpower of the individual. We only learn to lie.
 
Yourbaker said:
Our society is built of people who have been manipulated into believing what they do with their life is their purpose. As a gay male growing up under near perfect social pressure to be heterosexual I am surprised it just didn't take for me.

Socially I couldn't see any example of being gay besides circulated horror stories, living my life in a repressed state with no vision of hope yet still becoming gay seems unlikely. Yes I managed to pretend and fool some people but never truly myself.

All I needed was to see others stand up to realize I wasn't completely alone. But I disagree, I don't believe anything, torture, extreme duress or threats of things that will create fear can actually change a human sexual orientation including the willpower of the individual. We only learn to lie.
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I agree that nothing in these programs will likely change a person’s core sexual orientation at the biological level or the level of the Id (if you are a Freudian - which I’m not).

But i think people can possibly either not acknowledge their orientation even to themselves or else totally supress it out of the (wrong) belief that it is evil as their community has taught them.

People have a profound capacity for self-delusion and self-censorship to comply with social norms. If these ‘cure’ programs tap into that they perhaps could push a person into lifelong denial of their sexuality. And obviously that is not a cure of anything - except possibly actually out that sexuality which is what the goal is.
 
A long time ago parents, teachers, and other authority figures would try to force left-handed kids to be right-handed. Sometimes it worked, but it mostly didn't and just fucked the kids up.
 
I asked my partner this question. "Did you ever wish or consider what life would have been like if you were not born gay"?

His answer was "I only ever thought what it would be like to be a woman".

It seems depending on prevailing cultures and social settings the whole question is formed very differently. Along with the differences in us as humans, both my partner and I are golden gays (never been with a woman), we are both very masculine and often have to remind people we are gay.

Today is the first day I learned my partner had consider a sex change at some point in his life. I was always happy to have a penis and wouldn't ever want to be without it.

I think with "beliefs" you can force change, or learn around a belief, but with genetics or epi-genetics imho a cocktail of drugs hypnotism and mental surpession did not work despite my personal desire.

Religions you can believe in or not, ideologies can come and go but unless you are born bi sexual to a degree vs gay, you are only fooling yourself. Personally I did really try but fooling yourself and supporting a belief that you and others aren't just fooling yourself is not gonna lead to much joy in life.

I would be right to pass my knowledge and experience of extreme attempts to alter my orientation with my blessing, not against the gay boy's will. This just doesn't work.

You can use hypnosis, sleep deprivation, diet control and anti gay emersion therapy at once but you just feel like shit while your doing it and after you recover from the shitty disoriented feeling, your still exactly the same person.

What you can do with conversion programs is break beliefs not based in experience. Religious beliefs, loyalties to a side even family can be ripped to pieces permanently. Good luck with gay. Hypnosis was the weirdest.
 
Atomic_Decay said:
That’s a big claim. From 500 BC to 200 AD and the massive expansion of Roman Christianity there were 100 - 200 million people in the world with an impossible to comprehend diversity of spiritual/social/cultural practices. Yow can you claim early Christianity was the best amongst those practices? Even in The Levant?

What are your criteria for ‘best’? Sexual diversity and gender equality? There is much more to human flourishing than that.
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My criteria for best religion, is Gnostic Christianity.

That is why I chose it while most Abrahamic right wing religionists follow their traditional and vile Gods.

I agree that there are more sins than those of bed and bottle, as they say,

That is why I always encourage the homophobes and misogynous in religions to stop discriminating against gays and women without a just cause.

That is one of the reasons Gnostic Christianity is better than the garbage Christianity we now see dying, due to their garbage morals and modernization.

I hope you share the criteria if not my claim.

Regards
DL
 
I remember my dad's best friend mad at his dog whenever we went to his Beach house in summer.
Cause the dog would let other dog sodomize him(his dog was male).
It was funny seeing my uncle angry and swear in spanish while drunk(my dad's bf from childhood) cause his dog was gay xD
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
My criteria for best religion, is Gnostic Christianity.
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Sorry man - I don’t think you quite get the difference between a ‘criteria’ (for making a judgement) and a conclusion (from making a judgement from criteria).

You said ancient Christianity was the best religious/cultural/social system man ever came up with. I wanted to know what is your criteria for judging it the best - apart from the fact that you believe in it yourself.
 
w01fg4ng said:
For those who believe a person's sexual orientation can be changed by their environment, do you believe conversion therapy practices (religious or non-religious) are effective? Why or why not?
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I think we will have to wait for DNA science to identify the genes and determine if it is natural or damaged DNA creating us gay or not via our chemistry.

They will have a zipper for that soon.

They question will be to parents as to using it for conversion or not.

I think most shall use it.

Regards
DL
 
Negentropic said:
You should read the Tao Te Ching

it came hundreds of years before, and the bible copied a lot of it's teachings
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No argument, given that the bible is a consolidation of most of the perceive wisdom of the day.

Most religions can be found in the bible.

That was it's greatness when all knew it and used to book to argue with, both for and against.

Then stupid supernatural belief screwed it up.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.



Regards
DL
 
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